petition to make the Grand National safer

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teagreen said:
Oh, and following on from my Son of Snurge post, there was the 2 flat horses that died on Grand National day. But people are forgetting about them too. Doesn't that make flat racing just as unsafe as the Grand National...2 horses died in the GN.....2 horses died in Son of Snurge's low grade chase....2 horses died on the flat....

But then I bet if you count the number of horses who died in field accidents/illnesses today, it'd be 2 or more.

Moral is...horses are risky. Racing is risky. If you want to eliminate the risk, ban racing. But then you'd have to ban so many other things...
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Of course horses are risky. I have lost two over the years in paddock accidents. But surely we should do our bests to reduce the risks? For example, if I see a rabbit hole in the field, I fill it in. I don't wait until a horse breaks its leg or think 'oh well, horses will be horses.' If it's too muddy or slippery, I put them in the all weather turnout. We know that the number of horses that run in the national, compounds the danger. IMO it is both sensible and ethical to remove or reduce that danger. Quoting deaths in flat races etc is meaningless because there was no consistent element that caused the deaths. In the GN there are several that we know do. I do think there are probably other courses that need looking at too though.
 
lassiesuca said:
I've set up a petition in the aim to get lots of support and hopefully take it to the BRS and get them to just consider that the course perhaps needs some of it's safety aspects reconsider.

I'm not suggesting we ban the race, but if we can reduce the number of horses on the course, perhaps lower the fences and even reduce the length they have to run, you can still enjoy the race, and it will hopefully reduce the number of fatalities.

We do see it in eventing, however not as often, because safety is considered, obviously we can't prevent accidents entirely, but I believe we can reduce the risk.

In the past 11 years, 21 horses have been killed on GN, lets try and reduce that number. We're all horse lovers here! So let's just do the right thing :o


http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/grandnationalsafety/
Thanks for your support. I don't want to cause a fight, I just want to raise awareness

xx
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Haven't read the umpteen pages of replies but I do agree in making this race safer... signed.

One step at a time.. maybe after Badminton we can tackle eventing!!! :D:D:D:D
 
I was out in my numbers by ONE horse - the OP didn't even know that the horses she was counting hadn't even run in the National.

6 horses died on track in the GN out of 480 total runners over 12 races. That's accurate.

33 or whatever is being claimed is not.

At least 4 of those 6 were when the ground was quick. Watering would help that greatly.

However, as unseasonal weather causes road deaths, unfortunately it caused these deaths. I'm sure the track will try what they can, but I've no doubt you'd all be up in arms if he'd overwatered, it had rained, and we'd been subjected to the grisly spectacle such as this year's Eider.

You want to help horses? Go and look for the ones that need it, not well cared for animals like these were.
 
lassiesuca said:
I totally see where you're coming from with field incidents of course. However, whilst obviously even being in a field poses a risk, you just don't expect a course, like GN, to have quite a high proportion of deaths.

I suppose because it's quite a publicised thing, and also it's in quite a small 'area', you do tend to note the death rates a lot more.

Again, I'm not suggesting we ban the GN.

I'll bold face it this time, as obviously not been heard lol
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I did actually say over the page in my first post about Snurgy that I knew you didnt want to ban the National - so I did hear you.
 
Caledonia, you know you pointed out to me about researching my points before I make them....

well the discussion has evolved since then :)
In the time you've been away, I've admitted I was wrong, amended it on my petition, removed the bit about the course length and various other things.

I wish I hadn't got this started, my school work is calling me, but this is far more engaging!
 
lassiesuca said:
Again, I'm not suggesting we ban the GN.

I'll bold face it this time, as obviously not been heard lol
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But how can The Grand National still be the Grand National if you make it significantly different?

Shorten it? Reduce the field? Lower the fences? Do away with the handicap? There will already be other races of that distance, maximum field size, fence heights and no handicap, they are just called something else, and horses die in them sometimes too. Do people not think the horses' trainers enter in the National are horses that they think will best suit this race with this distance, fence height, etc?
 
lassiesuca said:
Caledonia, you know you pointed out to me about researching my points before I make them....

well the discussion has evolved since then :)
In the time you've been away, I've admitted I was wrong, amended it on my petition, removed the bit about the course length and various other things.
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So why don't you do something more beneficial to horses in general? The ones that aren't glamorous, or high profile because they're not racehorses? THEY are the ones that need your help.........
 
Flame_ said:
But how can The Grand National still be the Grand National if you make it significantly different?

Shorten it? Reduce the field? Lower the fences? Do away with the handicap? There will already be other races of that distance, maximum field size, fence heights and no handicap, they are just called something else, and horses die in them sometimes too. Do people not think the horses trainers enter in the National are horses that they think will best suit this race with this distance, fence height, etc?
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Exactly.

I was having this conversation with someone in the shop earlier on.

"Shorten it and reduce the number of runners" they said. Well, that makes the Topham then. Horses still get killed in that.

"Ok then, make the fences smaller, or different" they said. Well, they did that. It just makes them go faster. Say they replace them with ordinary fences. That just makes it like any other chase. Horses die on those too.

"Make the fences tiny?" they suggested. So like hurdles then? Horses die in hurdle races too.

"The ground was too fast" they said. Now, I would rather have seen it run on softer ground. However, the ground was by no means unsafe, it just meant they went faster. If it was heavy, horses would be more tired, which creates its own outcry.

"Well, maybe we should just make it a flat race then!" they finally said. Well, horses die in that too. So basically, unless we ban racing, you can't remove the risk.

I think they'll reduce the field size for next year.
 
I think the national will always be a welfare issue. The fences have all ready been made easier than in the olden days. The smaller fences make the horses take more of a risk.
There is also one point which I would like to make. The horses are not running the national loose, the jockeys are in charge of the horses as soon as they get on the course. Its up to the riders to slow down not the horses. I am a point to point jockey and all well and be it I am nowhere in the same league as these guys but when the horse I was riding gets tiered or is making silly errors in its jumping through fatigue then it gets pulled up and saved for another day. Going flat out is always a recipe for disaster.
Would people like the national run in the mud like when Red Marauder won his national!
People will always be divided but I for one enjoy the national.
People were complaining and trying to change the Eider chase at Newcastle because it was like a bog and only 2 horses finished. Not being funny but if it were up to some people racing would be completely banned!
Mary King lost a horse at express eventing, should that venue be cancelled?
 
Caledonia said:
So why don't you do something more beneficial to horses in general? The ones that aren't glamorous, or high profile because they're not racehorses? THEY are the ones that need your help.........
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But I do :)

I have a 3 year old rescue from the meat market, I had a horse (who okay, admittedly was a little too much for me, I am 5ft and he was a 17hh ID x) who was a rescue case, came to me with rain scald, thrush, severely underweight and had been tethered, with stale water to drink pretty much. My friend and I work together, her current project, who we discovered last year, is a 15hh Arab, who is covered in scars, was shut in a mangy box all day and severely underweight, over grown feet so he could barely walk and a 12hh Welsh Sec A who we sold to a friend, that was riddled with ring worm, lice, and kept in a garden shed for three years.

I support the WSPA, Bransby Home of Rest for horses, the Brooke etc.

So yes, I do also help horses in more dire need. Thank you very much :)
 
lassiesuca said:
But I do :)

I have a 3 year old rescue from the meat market, I had a horse (who okay, admittedly was a little too much for me, I am 5ft and he was a 17hh ID x) who was a rescue case, came to me with rain scald, thrush, severely underweight and had been tethered, with stale water to drink pretty much. My friend and I work together, her current project, who we discovered last year, is a 15hh Arab, who is covered in scars, was shut in a mangy box all day and severely underweight, over grown feet so he could barely walk and a 12hh Welsh Sec A who we sold to a friend, that was riddled with ring worm, lice, and kept in a garden shed for three years.

I support the WSPA, Bransby Home of Rest for horses, the Brooke etc.

So yes, I do also help horses in more dire need. Thank you very much :)
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That's commendable, but an individual basis. I meant with your petition.
 
Caledonia said:
That's commendable, but an individual basis. I meant with your petition.
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Shall I find my links to my 'anti-fur farms' petition?
I support all sorts of causes. Bunny hugger? I hope not, but I just think animals in general are not really respected enough.

Apologies to anyone I've offended in this thread, I totally respect this is your sport, your passion and to many of you, a way of living. I also respect that the racing industry provides homes for horses that would end up in the slaughter house
 
I wonder how many of the 74% of the those who voted in This Mornings poll had ever been racing or watched a race other than the Grand National. I bet 74% also read the Daily Mail. I also wonder how many voted..

I'm sure the 223,748 people who attended the Cheltenham Festival and the 156,392 approx who attended Aintree will beg to differ..
 
lassiesuca said:
Shall I find my links to my 'anti-fur farms' petition?
I support all sorts of causes. Bunny hugger? I hope not, but I just think animals in general are not really respected enough.

Apologies to anyone I've offended in this thread, I totally respect this is your sport, your passion and to many of you, a way of living. I also respect that the racing industry provides homes for horses that would end up in the slaughter house
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I don't support fur farms either, but horses are my passion, so I concentrate on them.

Get involved with the transport to slaughter petitions, they are trying to make a difference. So much suffering in the horse world would be eased if there were restrictions on those.
 
Caledonia said:
I don't support fur farms either, but horses are my passion, so I concentrate on them.

Get involved with the transport to slaughter petitions, they are trying to make a difference. So much suffering in the horse world would be eased if there were restrictions on those.
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Oh I forgot that, I donated to the WHW 'Make a Noise' campaign against transporting too! My parents always ponder on where my Christmas money goes... :rolleyes:
 
lassiesuca said:
Oh I forgot that, I donated to the WHW 'Make a Noise' campaign against transporting too! My parents always ponder on where my Christmas money goes... :rolleyes:
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I think it's nice that you obviously want to make a difference to horse suffering. Campaigns like that really do make a difference, I'm sure. It's also nice that you held your hands up to the mistakes you made and listened to those who pointed out the truth. But at the end of the day, there are a lot more things to make a noise about than horse racing.
 
This is a tricky one. I personally Hate the Grand National! Because of the amount of horses running is just too much, its a Stampead not a race!
I just can't watch it anymore, if I see a horse fall I get upset,even if it gets up afterwards.
Horse riding/racing is a dangerous sport for both horse & rider. It is true that because the jumps have been changed & made smaller drops, the race is a lot faster which causes more falls. There was another fatalality at Aintree on the Thursday before where a horse fell at a jump & broke its leg & had to be destroyed.
I remember going to Badminton one year & the rain just pelted down for the whole weekend, there were about 5 horses killed that weekend because of the slippey ground & falling.
I think the number of horses should be reduced slightly, even if just removing 6 will make a difference & making the jumps standard brush fences & removing all drops.
The race will never be banned, its a massive money spinner & at the end of the day that's what its all about plus the massive pressure & hype of who is the greatest race horse.
Its a marmite race. People love it & people hate. Me, I hate it & wish it would be banned but that is just my opinion. I just hate seeing animals suffer, if it were down to me I'd ban shooting, fox hunting, jump races would be made very easy, infact the grand National would just be another steeple chase called the Small National! lol!
The Jury will just have to stay out on this one. But reducing the number of horses & reducing the distance & making the jumps would be nice, but like others have said, it would be just another Steeplechase!
 
Firstly well done for standing up to something you believe in, if alot more people did just that alot of suffering of any animal would be reduced, but mainly well done for listening to other peoples views and amending yours, you may not have had the correct information but it does seem like your trying.
The grand national scares the living day light out of me and for the first time in 10 years I attempted to watch it, saw what happend at the second fence and done a runner to the farm (i am ridiculously soft when it comes to seeing animals or humans hurt them selves). But I would not want to see it banned, I do think that improvements can be made as with any sport their is always room for improvement, no sport is risk free but that does not mean that the risks can be ignored, changes have been made over the years and hopefully they will keep on making the changes to all grounds so the risk to rider and horse can be as minimal as possible.
I would probably say I am pro Grand National as long as they keep on improving the sport, I dont know what would make the race safer thats not my area but im quite sure there are professionals who do just that, I do not think it is fair for the general public to demonise the race, if a pro turned around and said this race is too much too dangerous then I would be more likely to listen to the out cry and I do wonder how many of them have had a flutter and perhaps lost :0
 
Wagtail said:
Perhaps you have not been keeping horses so long as I have or owned and cared for as many. Some of your posts do come over as rather immature.
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Hmmmm ........ that was obviously too subtle for you.

I'm commenting (tongue in cheek) on what you should or shouldn't do from a statistic you gave me - I'm simply turning your argument back on you. You might have had 2,000 horses, you might have had only 2, who knows? But you've had 2 die. Depending on the ratio, it is or is not acceptable.

My point was to demonstrate that a statistic taken out of context can be unfairly damning. Sorry if it went over your head.
:rolleyes:
 
Caledonia said:
Hmmmm ........ that was obviously too subtle for you.

I'm commenting (tongue in cheek) on what you should or shouldn't do from a statistic you gave me - I'm simply turning your argument back on you. You might have had 2,000 horses, you might have had only 2, who knows? But you've had 2 die. Depending on the ratio, it is or is not acceptable.

My point was to demonstrate that a statistic taken out of context can be unfairly damning. Sorry if it went over your head.
:rolleyes:
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:D I see! Very good. Yes, I'm afraid after some of your rather harsh and sarcastic responses to the OP I was expecting something along a similar vein. Well I like! :)
 
Fatalities can happen at any time, the changes you propose are just going to encourage the horses to go faster and at least with fences of a decent size the horse has to bring itself back. The fences themselves aren't dangerous, a horse could clamber through it if it tried, its just over jumping and pecking on landing at speed which can cause them to fall on their necks which is fatal.

No one likes to see accidents, but accidents happen everywhere in any race, or out on the hunting field, even in the field at home. Moments like this are only brought to everyone's attention when it becomes heavily televised such as the GN.

And for what it's worth, I think that both incidents that did occur were delt with very well.
 
People are proud of this ? A "great British Tradition" to be enjoyed ? ? ?

Look at the photo`s on Yahoo.co.uk :)

Quite frankly i`m ashamed !!!!!!!
 
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Wagtail said:
:D I see! Very good. Yes, I'm afraid after some of your rather harsh and sarcastic responses to the OP I was expecting something along a similar vein. Well I like! :)
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From your replies on this thread, I felt it was how you warranted responding to. :)

ETA, Daisy, you'll need copyright for these?
 
Lets face it, this will go away again till next year and we will have the same arguments. No I don't think the GN is cruel or any other riding activity that has speed. Jeez does that mean I cann't canter my horse incase he may break a leg. Please some of you grow up death comes in different ways, at lest these two horses knew nothing or felt any pain. If you really care about animal suffering look on the SPANA website, about the poor bloody donkeys and horses made to carry way beyound their own weight, now to me that is human abuse and cruelty.:mad::mad:
 
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