Piaffe and other dressage moves...

Loberia

Loberia

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Hello all!
I was wondering (it may not even exist!) if anyone knew if you could train a horse to Piaffe or Spanish walk etc. on one cue in the beginning, and it continues to perform the move, and then with one cue telling it to stop that move, before giving it one cue for the next move? Is that possible? I mean sort of liberty style horse training, I was just curious to know! Or, am I to ambitious, and thinking up the impossible! If anyone knows if you can and how to do it, please let me know! I would love to discover it!

Thanks!
 
Thought of an idea...
Would giving a command to Piaffe set the horse of in Piaffe, and then you train the horse to continue until you use a clicker to say stop? What do other people think?
 
You could watch and take note of the spanish riding school esp the in hand work, also take a look at the years of training that goes in before they expect that of a horse and also the years of work that go into the riders, im not saying its not possible for us ordinary folk but its certainly a tall order if you dont follow the proper route.
Im not sure where youre based but arthur kottas does do in hand demos at the ttt in surrey, not sure when the next one is though.
 
You could, of course, the same way you train anything else, by cueing a new behaviour when you want the current one to cease.

That said, if you're not sure what you're doing, trying to train the average horse to piaffe for an extended period sounds like a pretty good way to break it. It's a physically very hard movement and comes into the class of things you cannot teach every horse, even theoretically. Think of it like being able to jump GP - physical ability limits training.
 
Erm, not sure what you actually want here? Sounds like a sort of perpetual piaffe? Of course it is possible to train a horse to piaffe in hand, most horses are started this way in fact, same with Spanish Walk, BUT you have to know how to do it; when he horse is capable; if the horse is capable - lots of things. To be able to sustain piaffe for any length of time the horse has to be able to balance really well, and have the muscles in it's back and hindquarters to enable it to do so. Not a job for a beginner.
 
From what I've read on clicker training sites recently, the simple answer is - yes. You can train a cue, and then even transfer that to having a rider on board. Except that like everything, it's never so simple xD As other people have said, the length that the horse can hold the movement is unlikely to match the length of time that theoretically you could train it to maintain the movement for. I have seen lots of videos of horses trained to do both with the clicker though. I'm teaching Dan Spanish walk with clicker training at the minute, and it's a lot of fun :) I hope that with my instructors help, eventually we'll move on to half-steps & piaffe in-hand. I don't believe that any horse would be totally incapable of piaffe, more that some would take more conditioning, training, & then still the *quality* would be lower, because yes, not many horses are what people would like to see doing Grand Prix now! Opening my mind to more work at liberty & such though has shown me that some really ... well, horses you wouldn't expect to be capable of some things, will try very hard & will give them, even if they wont get you 90% in a dressage test :p
 
Sol said:
I don't believe that any horse would be totally incapable of piaffe, more that some would take more conditioning, training, & then still the *quality* would be lower, because yes, not many horses are what people would like to see doing Grand Prix now! Opening my mind to more work at liberty & such though has shown me that some really ... well, horses you wouldn't expect to be capable of some things, will try very hard & will give them, even if they wont get you 90% in a dressage test :p
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I would more or less agree (although I think there are horses that simply do not have the mechanics to produce a correct version even a low quality one) but I think it does beg the question SHOULD we ask any horse to piaffe (or whatever)? Horses are triers - they are naturally compliant, that's why we can do all the things we do with them - but even doing quite "ordinary" activities we often push them to the point of injury or chronic conditions. We can say we will stop when we see a problem . . .but there is an argument that by the time we see a problem, it's too late.

Sorry, off topic, but it's a subject near and dear to my heart. I'm very much open to the possibility that you can't always predict what a horse may be capable of (although physical ability does largely come down to mechanics . . ) and I looove a good experiment but I experience has tempered that to some extent (you don't learn the limits until you push them sometimes . . .) and I am now just as interested in the ethics of training. Just because we can, does that mean we should?

I'm not having a go, honestly. Just musing . . .
 
To add to your musings Tarrsteps - I believe it was Pigeon who posted the link to this website the other day: http://www.piafferevealed.com/

It is full of slick internet marketing and it struck me that they seemed to have found a market niche - teaching novices how to train their horses to piaffe - I can't say anything about the content of the product because I haven't seen it, but it did get me thinking...
 
TarrSteps said:
I would more or less agree (although I think there are horses that simply do not have the mechanics to produce a correct version even a low quality one) but I think it does beg the question SHOULD we ask any horse to piaffe (or whatever)? Horses are triers - they are naturally compliant, that's why we can do all the things we do with them - but even doing quite "ordinary" activities we often push them to the point of injury or chronic conditions. We can say we will stop when we see a problem . . .but there is an argument that by the time we see a problem, it's too late.

Sorry, off topic, but it's a subject near and dear to my heart. I'm very much open to the possibility that you can't always predict what a horse may be capable of (although physical ability does largely come down to mechanics . . ) and I looove a good experiment but I experience has tempered that to some extent (you don't learn the limits until you push them sometimes . . .) and I am now just as interested in the ethics of training. Just because we can, does that mean we should?

I'm not having a go, honestly. Just musing . . .
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I think it's an interesting question. I think it would very much depend on the confo/temperament/past injuries/age/fitness/etc of the horse. If you had a horse that's likely to just do it's nut every time you ask, no, if you had a horse likely to cause itself injury, no. But I've been taught that using things such as piaffe (well, half-steps at least) can benefit other things - it doesn't *have* to be an end product, it can be a tool as well, therefore doesn't have to be seen as the thing at the very top of the ladder. I imagine levade & the airs are beyond many horses? At the very least safely/without injury to either horse or handler, but if a horse will do something at liberty, I imagine in 99% of cases you could consider training the same in-hand, if not under saddle?
I think a lot of injuries/conditions are caused more by too much *too soon* than just too much, or incorrect conditioning.

Then again, I've never trained one horse to that level, let alone numerous, not specifically bred for the job horses which I suppose is what you'd need to do really. I just read a lot. And it depends on what you read as well doesn't it?
 
I have to say, I've really only seen a very few horses naturally display piaffe, most - but not all - bred for it. (The most recent was a QH, actually, but of a likely build and temperament.) Passage, or passage-ish movements, yes. Proper sit-down-pick-yer-feet-up even half steps, rarely. I do see the method in teaching it as a means to an end, absolutely, but the 'horses do it naturally' defence doesn't really apply in this particular situation. SOME horses do offer it naturally but there isn't much dispute that it can be the 'hole' in even quite promising upper level horses, even ones with all the developmental advantages.

Alas, I also can't agree that most problems come from 'too much, too soon'. Some do, obviously, and it's SUCH an a attractive belief because it's so easily and simply addressed. There are times in my life I would have wholeheartedly agreed. Alas, observation and experience have taught me otherwise. Sometimes hubris isn't about winning ribbons, it's about wanting to do things 'differently' or 'first' or 'independently' just to prove you can. Horses and hubris are always a potentially dangerous combination. . .
 
By the way, I don't usually worry about the ones that do their nut at the first sign of trouble - they can usually look after themselves! :D
 
TarrSteps said:
I have to say, I've really only seen a very few horses naturally display piaffe, most - but not all - bred for it. (The most recent was a QH, actually, but of a likely build and temperament.) Passage, or passage-ish movements, yes. Proper sit-down-pick-yer-feet-up even half steps, rarely. I do see the method in teaching it as a means to an end, absolutely, but the 'horses do it naturally' defence doesn't really apply in this particular situation. SOME horses do offer it naturally but there isn't much dispute that it can be the 'hole' in even quite promising upper level horses, even ones with all the developmental advantages.

Alas, I also can't agree that most problems come from 'too much, too soon'. Some do, obviously, and it's SUCH an a attractive belief because it's so easily and simply addressed. There are times in my life I would have wholeheartedly agreed. Alas, observation and experience have taught me otherwise. Sometimes hubris isn't about winning ribbons, it's about wanting to do things 'differently' or 'first' or 'independently' just to prove you can. Horses and hubris are always a potentially dangerous combination. . .
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I don't think most horses will show a lot of it, but most horses I've seen playing in the field will show at least the sit, the odd step in a turn or change of pace. Obviously everything we train we tend to want *more* of, bigger, better, longer, faster... guess that's just humans always wanting more :rolleyes: I guess actually, I've seen more natural piaffe type movement when the horse has been under saddle/in hand but knows it cannot go where it wants (ie. it's spotted a horse charging about the field, but knows it's not allowed to display behaviour that is that exuberant). I guess you could argue that that's unnatural, but it's still not being cued/prompted as such by the handler, so still on the horses terms.

I don't necessarily mean just in terms of age, I'm not even thinking strictly from a competitive view (god knows when I'll compete again) more that it's quite typical for people to get a bit carried away - which can take many forms. And is so easily done!

As for the nut case horses, well, I guess it depends on a lot of things (like everything else!)
 
I'm intrigued by some of the unsupported claims on that website, which run counter to other unsupported claims I've read elsewhere. He argues that teaching piaffe "in hand provides such benefits, but with little stress on the joints and the horse is able to work through his balance issues before the rider adds weight to the program."

I have also heard or read that piaffe puts a lot of stress on the structures in the hindquarters and in the back. This website hasn't backed up its claim that it does the opposite, but then, neither has anyone else.

Does anyone know? Or is it time to wave around the "QI" no one knows cards?

The website raises my scepticism, because it screams "slick internet marketing" and claims there's a fast and easy way for anyone to train any horse horse to piaffe but to find out what it is, you have to buy the dude's DVD. And lets face it, the piaffe looks pretty cool, so that probably appeals to the sort of owner who would like to train their horse to do something awesome, but without all the time and work it takes to get Grand Prix horses or Spanish Riding school horses to do the things they do.

Like Sol, I have seen horses piaffe on their own accord when having a meltdown under saddle or wanting to go faster than the rider wants, and the rider is trying to hold them back. It's not a pretty nor correct piaffe by any means, just tense, joggy steps in place, but the idea is kind of there. I've not seen one do it when at total liberty, playing with its mates. I have seen plenty of them passage when at play.
 
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The "natural" piaffe that everyone's talking about is known as a "stress piaffe" by people who do train young horses to piaffe in hand / in pillars (in Spain & Portugal, mostly), and is certainly not desirable, useful, or sought after.
 
I have to be honest, this is not really my thing, as am not a dressage diva, but I do like to read things about training horses as its really interesting. To add my tiny bit, when I learned to ride, about a hundred years ago, my instructor always told me that the difference between dressage and circus moves, were that dressage moves were ones that horses performed naturally at play in the field. Circus moves were those moves which were taught artificially. Now I dont know enough about the subject to comment, but I have spent a fair bit of time observing both my horses at play.

Even my 20 year old cob, with a bit of stifness will play around and place himself in an outline, and I have even seen the odd bit of piaffe from him when playing around. We have even observed a very beautiful extended trot from him, in a perfect outline whilst playing (its a bloody shame he never did it when I was doing dresage on him ..... LOL).
Our mare does do dressage to BE Novice level/BD elementary, and she is an absolute dream to watch, with the most extravagant movement, and we have seen all manner of movements that would I am sure be good enough to grace a GP test. However, Mini TX has never taught her any advanced movements, apart from some lateral work necessary for work at this level and just slightly beyond it. The mare has done it naturally herself whilst out in the field.

My point being I guess every horse can do it to some degree or another. I dont persnally wish to train my old boy, even if the sprit was willing, his body definitely would not be, nor would mine!
 
Thing is with clicker is that you have to wait for the required movement to appear first.... Very few horses would randomly start piaffing and if they did probably they would be stressed about something so anyway not a good state of mind to click and reward.

I have experimented a lot to try to get my boy, with zero natural gifts for piaffe, to work towards it and in truth the best we get is a very collected trot but still far from true piaffe. My dressage trainer (not into clicker) tells me the point is you "come to" piaffe, rather than teaching it as an isolated trick. My experience to date tells me she is right.

That said, I have found Spanish walk lends itself to clicker well.
 
Caol Ila said:
I'm intrigued by some of the unsupported claims on that website, which run counter to other unsupported claims I've read elsewhere. He argues that teaching piaffe "in hand provides such benefits, but with little stress on the joints and the horse is able to work through his balance issues before the rider adds weight to the program."
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Yes, that was the part that intrigued me - I spent quite a while trying to find out if he had got that from anywhere (purely because it seems so counter-intuitive that i would liked to have read where it came from), or whether he had just made it up for the purposes of marketing to his niche. I came to the conclusion that it was the latter.
 
ANYTHING can be damaging to a horse, done incorrectly or without empathy. And the fact that 'horses' CAN do something is not really a defence, partly, of course, because all horses are not created equal, but also because they are notoriously unable to make judgements regarding their own welfare. Which is why we are able to use them as we do.

The trick is of course that exercise and training are also essential for optimum health and development. An exercise that might help one aspect might endanger another. . .
 
Sorry, I don't understand the question. What do you mean by 'moves'? Do you mean how long could a horse stay at GP? There have been horses competing at the top level until their late teens and even after that, many are used as schoolmasters or even compete with less experienced riders.

Re fitness, do you mean can you just whip a retired horse out of a field and do GP? No, they would probably do the movements but it wouldn't be fair to ask. But if the horse was conditioned sensibly then the only limitations would be soundness and willingness.
 
I used to have a heavy weight hunter (3/4 tb 1/4 shire- 18hh with 10" bone) who used to piaffe absolutely perfectly in his stable, for his tea. He really sat behond, engaged his hocks and lifted his forehand - totally self taught lol!
 
"Dressage Moves"- I mean the moves such as Piaffe, Passage, Spanish Walk etc. and the lower down ones such as half-pass...

Fitness, I just meant how fit would ANY horse have to be to perform Piaffe etc.
What I mean is how "athlete" fit does it have to be?

Goodness! I've got my head in a twist! But still, that's what I mean!! :D
 
The thing is none of these 'moves' are in isolation, they are just a continuation of training. As said, I don't actually believe every horse can and should be made to do every movement but leaving that aside, it's like any other training.

If you think of it in terms on jumping. . .so say half pass is like jumping 1.10, which almost every reasonably athletic horse can do, and piaffe is like jumping 1.50, which very few horses can do consistently well. So if a horse has been off jumping for awhile, you build fitness then gradually ask more. Same on the other end - a horse that can no longer jump 1.50 every week might still be fine to do less/less often.

Does that make sense?

As to exact ages, that's quite individual. The general consensus is horses won't have a competition level piaffe much before 8-10, although they may have been doing bits at home for years before that, and it will continue to improve basically until time and wear and tear take their inevitable toll. I knew a horse who found the collected work very easy and was piaffing away into his 20s. He had always struggled with extensions though and they got unlevel as he got older.

Spanish walk is a bit of an anomaly as it doesn't require the same level of engagement as the competitive dressage movements so doesn't really fall anywhere on the training scale.
 
It's taken two years to get mine to the stage where he has the correct muscles for elementary. This is after more than an hour and a half every single day of working correctly, and I still wouldn't ask him for piaffe!

There's a reason you only see certain breeds competing at top level dressage. Moves with extreme collection, like piaffe, put massive strain on the muscles and joints. But then I am talking about a correct piaffe, rather than just a trot on the spot, which my horse often does when he sees something frightening. :rolleyes:
 
Pigeon, I'm still not convinced I believe that. I've seen shetlands, heavy horses, cobs, thoroughbreds, Iberians, warmbloods, ponies, arabs producing piaffe in videos. I've seen an awful lot of warmbloods do awful piaffes :p A small number of trainers (usually the ones who don't aim at competitions) believe in training any & every horse, not 'oh, that one wont do grand prix, don't bother'. I think the sad thing is that many people are interested mostly in competitions so concentrate on that :(
Most people would say breeds such as Haffies & Fjords weren't suited to dressage, but there seem to be a number of people taking on that challenge.
Ultimately, I think warmbloods will always rule the dressage world due to their movement & whatnot, at the end of the day, people will always want to win, a hell of a lot has been put into their breeding. But I think it's sad that more isn't done to encourage people to do dressage with ANY horse. Sure, not every horse will make it to learning the grand prix or high school level moves - everything has a physical limit, which is variable. But I bet a lot more horses could with the right trainer/rider.

If not I might as well give up & take up fishing or something now cos I get bored stiff at prelim comps :rolleyes:
 
Sol said:
Pigeon, I'm still not convinced I believe that. I've seen shetlands, heavy horses, cobs, thoroughbreds, Iberians, warmbloods, ponies, arabs producing piaffe in videos. I've seen an awful lot of warmbloods do awful piaffes :p A small number of trainers (usually the ones who don't aim at competitions) believe in training any & every horse, not 'oh, that one wont do grand prix, don't bother'. I think the sad thing is that many people are interested mostly in competitions so concentrate on that :(
Most people would say breeds such as Haffies & Fjords weren't suited to dressage, but there seem to be a number of people taking on that challenge.
Ultimately, I think warmbloods will always rule the dressage world due to their movement & whatnot, at the end of the day, people will always want to win, a hell of a lot has been put into their breeding. But I think it's sad that more isn't done to encourage people to do dressage with ANY horse. Sure, not every horse will make it to learning the grand prix or high school level moves - everything has a physical limit, which is variable. But I bet a lot more horses could with the right trainer/rider.

If not I might as well give up & take up fishing or something now cos I get bored stiff at prelim comps :rolleyes:
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Any horse is capable of doing piaffe after some conditioning, but some horses will find it much harder than others, especially if they aren't fit enough, and I personally don't think it's fair to put them through it. It will put unnecessary strain on their muscles and joints, and ultimately what is the point?

There is a reason dressage is a ladder of training - you get competent at one level before progressing to the next, and this is so your horse is physically and mentally ready for the harder movements. You can't teach a horse piaffe until it knows how to collect, and you can't teach a horse to collect until it knows how to work properly from behind and lift itself off the forehand.

Also like I said, is it a correct piaffe or just trotting in place? This is where the difference between 'dressage' and 'tricks' comes into play.
 
Also if you get bored at prelim, try moving up to novice and elementary? Even just for experience, there are some much more interesting and complex tests.
 
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