Pics and vids for those who asked...

[oldvic]

She looks like she is bigger behind than in front with a slightly straight hind leg? She doesn't look that supple through her back and hind legs and is very on her forehand. Shoulder fore in canter, small circles pushing the inside hind under, moving canter on and back over short distances (probably on a circle) and leg yielding are all suggestions. A couple of exercises that might help are an smallish oxer with a placing pole. Walk on a long rein to about 8/9 ft from the pole then press her with your leg and hold the neckstrap. The idea is that she does a couple of short canter strides before the fence and jumps off her hocks. It might be that she does a couple of trot steps and 1 canter over the pole until she gets sharper. It' s important she has complete freedom of her head and neck. The pole should be 8/9 ft to encourage them to stay bouncy and because you are going slowly. Also 2 low wide oxers on a shortish distance and then make them wider from the inside so you also shorten the distance. Keep the canter round from behind without worrying to much about the neck being round. There are plenty of others too which help but it's really about her athletic ability.

 

[kerilli]

Thanks everyone.
SC, i'm not exactly setting her up to fail, i was trying to be a helpful non-domineering passenger so SHE would own the fence and make a decision, because i'm not sure how much that has been tried with her before. but, the one time we were on a bit of a nothing stride, as our minor whoopsy at that tiny spread proved, she made a decision but then didn't really put much effort into it... and most horses i've sat on, even green ones, would have made a better attempt than that. so, i learnt my lesson even if she didn't particularly! next time round i rode it differently and she jumped it much better. if i'd ridden her the same then yes, i would have been setting her up to fail, which isn't fair, i agree. (or, she might have learnt more. or hit it harder. or hurt herself. who knows?) i didn't have the nerve to ride it that badly again, put it that way!
Very good point about not riding her as if i'm riding her dam... i keep fighting the mental whiplash. she looks and feels so similar, until she comes off the floor (ish!) So, point taken. Thanks.
I am going to experiment with the bouncy short canter, that's next definitely.
Bryndu, thanks, yes. I am horribly out of practice and need yelling at. Lower leg didn't use to be as bad as that, not quite sure what that's all about, will get on it. I saw I was twisting in the air and I'm pretty sure that's new, so that may be something she's making me do, maybe not. Will get myself checked. I think I'm over-folding already so I'm not sure about 'put your chest on the horse's mane', I think 'shoulders up' is prob more what i need...?!
SusieT, Apercrumbie, sorry, but you must have missed the bit where I said that I am not going to take this horse xc until I can prove in pics and vids that her style has changed for the good, securely and reliably. If that doesn't happen, fine, there's a hunting home desperate for her. So, no pressure at all, and I can assure you I am not stupid enough to risk her neck and mine until her style changes, IF it can at this stage.
Ok, toughening up and sharpening up on the canter. go stop go stop etc. i have been doing a bit but obv nothing like enough, or strictly enough. thankyou.
Thanks alwaysbroke, good ideas and points.
Rowreach, yes, I see your point. Things are booked etc. Meanwhile I will keep playing around because she feels fine from on top, and we both need the practice, but if she feels wrong I will stop immediately of course.
Ta everyone.
Thanks oldvic, much appreciated. Yes, straight hindleg, I'm not sure about bigger behind, she has a massive front too. I'll work much harder on the canter with those exercises, thankyou. That pole-to-oxer exercise is the same as KatB suggested I think, I'll get that built now.

 

[Bryndu]

I think I'm over-folding already so I'm not sure about 'put your chest on the horse's mane', I think 'shoulders up' is prob more what i need...?!


LOL!
Re read what I wrote and I wasn't clear! Sorry!
I meant to say...keep your bum in the saddle..and fold from the hips so your chest touches her mane...atm you are 'flinging' yourself up her neck as if it is the puissance wall I do appreciate the lack of practice making it a little hard for you..

Re the stressy attitude as well (hers not yours.. ) she may well be stressing because as you try to change things...she has a toys out of the pram moment...as 'I has never been asked to do it that way before...so why should I' attitude....you may have to be a little firmer with the young lady....
You are doing a great job...by the way...
Bryndu

 

[Pidgeon]

Won't comment on your position as others have and you know what needs work on.
As to the horse, if you look at the stills she is very very straight through the back in all of them, the neck does give a little but not as much as I would expect even when you put the fence up a bit. Her hindlegs are not always a pair on take off, sometimes quite out, so perhaps something may not be right with her back/and hind legs? however when the fence goes up a bit her front legs do come up more than the dangly ones we see over the smaller fences, so perhaps she is just complacent over the smaller fences.
FWIW I think your doing the right thing in getting her checked out as I'd be quite surprised if she was 100% IMO. Also you may just have to accept she has no concept of jumping for herself and has to be placed on the spot to jump ok, some horses are just like that.
Agree with others who have said she looks a tad strung out, can you rev the pace up a bit and then contain the energy and see what happens?
Hope you get to the bottom of it as she does look like an honest horse.

 

[MrsMozart]

I'm not an expert in anything equine, so feel free to ignore my ramblings, but to my uneducated but sadly seen too many backend lamenesses, she doesn't look quite right behind. The downwards transitions (canter to trot) have a little sort of skip moment/movement in them.

As I said, feel free to ignore!

Just out of interest, and again with the feeling free to ignore bit, but why does this lass have to go cross-country/jump? It doesn't seem to be her forte.

 

[kerilli]

ha, thanks Bryndu, that makes more sense. the trouble is, when i concentrate on myself, my eye for a stride goes out of the window. must. try. harder. in the just-at-take-off pics i look okay, not sure why i'm chucking myself forward once she's left the ground... hmm. i don't think i'm doing a particularly good job yet, but i'm open to anything that might help her. i have no ego at all when it comes to horsemanship, fortunately!
tbh she doesn't get stressy and reactionary, she doesn't do anything bad... she tightens in herself... she internalises it all. does that make sense? maybe that's the CB in her. i'll try making her work a lot harder this afternoon and see how it goes.
thanks Pidge, sometimes her hindlegs aren't together on take-off, i agree, (which is because of the not-together-enough-canter, i think) but strangely when they're not, her front end technique is often better, which makes little sense... ?!?!

it's so tricky, i can absolutely see the sense of doing everything over small fences, BUT not if she doesn't bother jumping properly because they're small! argh!

MrsM, when i ride a forward canter to trot trans, i think they're fine, i was trying to get her to stop faster (a sort of wussy version of what Bryndu recommended up there) and hence she was propping a bit behind, i think.
As for xc... well, it's what her owner wants to do, it's what the mare was bred to do (both parents 3*), and it's what i want to do. if she wasn't her mother's daughter i wouldn't even try with her, to put it bluntly, but it is worth a try i think... not xc yet, but an attempt to alter her style if possible. but, if it's not what suits her as a career, there's another one waiting...

 

[Pidgeon]

Have you tried her over a bigger fence?

 

[Rowreach]

when i ride a forward canter to trot trans, i think they're fine, ...

Have a look at the downward transition towards the end of the third video. Also, in the same video, when you are going down the long side away from the camera (past the plank spread).

 

[floradora09]

You're about a billion times more experienced than me, so feel free to ignore my advice - but what happens if you try a grid? You could make it easy for her to hit the right spot, and put a bounce or something in maybe to see if she picks up in front more then? Perhaps this way you could get her using herself more but at the same time leaving her to it, as it'd all be set up for her and she'd just meet them right?

 

[TiddlyPups]

I watched the videos before reading your post and genuinely, genuinely thought she was a baby - I would never have guessed she's been Novice and if looking at a horse to go Novice on she wouldn't appear on my radar.

Having read your post it does strike me as odd you would jump her in this lumbering, lacklustre canter as I can't understand how that is going to improve her confidence when she doesn't look like she has enough power to jump 2ft? The world's scopiest horse needs power to utilise the scope it has.

If I was you I would be working on getting a good powerful, punchy canter so that she can trust herself with the fact she has enough power to jump comfortably from any stride and not be having to "drag" herself over the fences.

 

[cruzing]

No CC from me as think it has all been covered. My concern is that if you improve her technique to where she is secure and reliable enough to XC, there is always a chance of her reverting back when she is worried or stressed.

 

[Bearskin]

Her style reminds me of "The Irishman" and he did ok!

I would work on the elasticity/power/adjustability/suppleness of the canter. If you can improve the canter the jumping style may improve. Perhaps you could also use a grid of 3 uprights set on shortish one stride distances, building up to about 3'6"; ride the first to a good spot and then leave her alone to look after you both for the second two. It should tell you if she has the ability to shorten and be quicker in front.

I think we need weeekly video updates so we can watch the progress and see if any of our advice has been useful....

 

[racingdemon]

Really really interesting to see the vids,

I would say much more power, but don't make the canter too short yet, I think for now she needs the confidence from jumping off a slightly longer (but powerfu) stride,

FYI, I had a mare years ago that had a number of rotational & near rotational falls out hunting, (not with me) she had been allowed to go along in a loose stretched out canter, basically coasting, and was as stubborn as the day is long (scallywag mare) she was huge, big and bholsy (TB, but v old fashioned stamp) she took A HUGE amount of riding, getting a really powerful canter, keeping a decent stride length so she didn't get tempted to chip one in, and she never fell again, (although to be fair she didn't event at a very high level, but i could trust her) lots & lots & lots of canter - walk- canter, loads of grids, and being a bit braver to get the big powerful stride, From the vids I would say you look a bit in neutral (I know why but I'd be really interested to see what she was like if you really turned on the turbo)

I'm also still really interested that she's good out hunting, because you can still have a nasty rotational over a hedge if they don't pick up, ( like the mare above) so somewhere in her head there must be a switch?? Perhaps it's that power thing??

Keep the updates coming, very interesting!!

 

[freyaandrogue]

hi, im more of a lurker than a poster but i thought i would add a little something as she reminds me of a horse i used to ride, bend her legs at the knees rather than really tucking up.
With her it was a case of really doing your homework at home to keep on top of her technique. We did a lot of work and creating a lovely bouncy uphill canter that really punched the floor. I also agree with the taking off slightly further away theory, as gives more time for legs to get out of the way.
V-poles were a brilliant exercise, as is the pole-jump-pole that has already been suggested.
We also tried, and im not sure wether you will want to try it or not, to put a little market harborough or standing martingale on her, as if she stayed rounder over the fence, her shoulders came up more and the shape of the jump was much better.
As for you, you are getting her to the fences nicely but i do agree that this particular horse may benefit from a slightly more leg to hand approach, with you sitting up and pushing her forward into a good contact (think more showjumper than xc lol). the mare i rode also liked to jump into a good contact, so on take off i didnt completely drop my reins and say go, I kind of gently helped to pick her up off the floor if that makes sense?
I hope you find some of this useful but feel free to ignore anything you might think is rubbish good luck i hope she comes good for you.

eta. lots of bounce work too!

 

[Jingleballs]

There is already a load of good advice on here and I'm not really experienced enough to comment but I also have a horse that can be a bit lazy with his front legs and doesn't always pick up well.

I had a lesson with my RC instructor and he did this and she said he wasn't using his shoulders correctly to pick up over the jump. She put up a small straight and asked me to walk him into it and ask him to jump it a few times from walk. Then she put it up a bit and we repeated the exercise again in walk and then in trot. He was a million times better after this and although I've not had to use this exercise since it's a good tool to have if we hit these problems again!

 

[kerilli]

Have a look at the downward transition towards the end of the third video. Also, in the same video, when you are going down the long side away from the camera (past the plank spread).

Having watched it again, going down the long side past the plank spread, she steps half on the sleeper edging, that's why she takes a mis-step, I felt it at the time. The downwards transition at the end... hmmm, a bit 'hitchy' with off hind? Is that what you mean? I'll get her checked.

Having read your post it does strike me as odd you would jump her in this lumbering, lacklustre canter as I can't understand how that is going to improve her confidence when she doesn't look like she has enough power to jump 2ft? The world's scopiest horse needs power to utilise the scope it has.

Oh dear. Did you bother to read my previous post describing her history, in detail? This thread was a follow-on for those who had asked to see pics and vid. In the other post I explained that the usual methods really haven't worked with this one, and so I had specific reasons for trying what i was trying in the vids. They were small fences and I really don't think 2' high is an effort for most horses!

cruzing, yes, absolutely, i am keeping that firmly in mind.
Babybear, she has done a LOT of jumping from walk already. (ditto high X poles, V poles, tight distances, low wide parallels on short distances...)
racingdemon, that's interesting, hmm. yes, i can see that working actually... at least until the point we're on a real misser... which can always happen, you only need a slip or a trip. but, that's an interesting parallel. ta.
freyaandrogue, all duly noted, thanks.

Today's little efforts:
tiny bounce distance poles: http://youtu.be/6ULnRLFeM9c
she did it perfectly once but, typically, that was before my cameraman got there... btw, you can hear our pet crow's opinion of the fact that she kicks the last pole (he was sitting on OH's shoulder) and OH trying to shush him.
place pole to teensy parallel: http://youtu.be/tPW1W_nTreU waiting and getting the idea? will work up to bigger parallel...
grid, shorter distances, then upright: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-V_DWKB-Rg&feature=youtu.be
marginal improvement maybe, but i noticed that she didn't want to land on right lead after the grid... hmmmm. no more jumpies till checked out.
comments, as always, welcome! thanks.

 

[Rowreach]

No I didn't mean when she stepped on the board, I meant that she's stiff and crooked and making you stiff and crooked.

 

[kerilli]

No I didn't mean when she stepped on the board, I meant that she's stiff and crooked and making you stiff and crooked.

ah okay, i see. hmm. i have never been crooked in midair before so i think you have a definite point. will be checking her out thoroughly. thankyou. really appreciate it.

 

[Rowreach]

Very interested to hear the outcome

 

[Lyle]

I want a crow hehe...

She looked quite nice over the verticle in the last video I like the walking into the fence, I've do a bit of that in my schooling. It's suprisingly useful, gets them thinking about their take-off power and actually can help with confidence a bit too.

She reminds me of my last TB. Because he was a little loose he had to overjump, but luckily he had oodles of scope and learnt to be very fast off the ground. Probably because I can be fairly useless so would place him awfully and he learnt to sort himself out! He did start to really snap the legs up, he was fairly abusive on his stud guard.

You absolutely seem on the right track and the mare is lovely, definitely working out what makes her tick (or is that tuck?)

 

[Santa_Claus]

finally had chance to watch all the videos. If I'm honest she looks 'blocked' behind the saddle which to me looks like that's preventing or contributing to preventing her from putting her weight on to her hocks. Its all very downhill at the moment and the front end just isn't getting a chance to come up.

I know you are allowing her to go along longer to let her take ownership but would be interested to see if she is actually capable of a more collected canter, not necessarily dressage round through her neck but actually taking the weight behind.

When you sit up over the fence her technique is marginally better so although over folding is not assisting her it is by no means the cause.

Following on would get her a once over to see if there is tightness behind the saddle and whether that is saddle or back or other caused. Seeing as she has always had such a technique my slightly way off theory would be that she had an accident/injury when young causing a stiffness behind which has never been truly corrected and she now struggles to put weight behind and therefore is always slightly on the forehand and as a big horse this doesn't give her chance to pick up comfortably. You know she can pick up as comments re owl holes etc but for those fences she perhaps pushes herself that bit more.

As said perhaps OTT and as not seen any vids of her in a more collected frame I could be completely off the mark.

 

[coss]

you've done a high sided cross - what about a parallel/cross thing - so two crosses put one behind the other to create a spread but both being a cross? got the mare i ride more up in the air and she's done a fair amount of showjumping when younger. I also get infront of the movement so correcting me helped but know that's not really the issue with yours!
i'd also be interested in what she'd make of bounce grids - maybe shorter rather than longer so as to engage the backend more?

 

[siennamum]

My SJ trainer did a brilliant excercise with me to improve the shape. A set of single fences, small course, with lots of turns and loops. Each fence has a placing pole, then you create an A frame on the floor, with 2 poles from the edges of the placing pole into an apex at the front of the fence on the ground. Really makes them sit and use their shoulders.

Haven't any comment on the vids, thought she looked really sweet, fingers crossed you can sort it and have some better horsey luck.

 

[Starbucks]

Well i'm actually quite shocked. I actually respected you on here but... not so much now!

In your words.. There's a lot needs to be improved here!!

There is a complete difference in placing a horse into a fence and having a crap, loloppy canter! Honestly, you've been round 3*??????

 

[3Beasties]

Well i'm actually quite shocked. I actually respected you on here but... not so much now!

In your words.. There's a lot needs to be improved here!!

There is a complete difference in placing a horse into a fence and having a crap, loloppy canter! Honestly, you've been round 3*??????

 

[kerilli]

Well i'm actually quite shocked. I actually respected you on here but... not so much now!

In your words.. There's a lot needs to be improved here!!

There is a complete difference in placing a horse into a fence and having a crap, loloppy canter! Honestly, you've been round 3*??????

Ouch! Erm... as said above and on the orginal thread, this mare has a very specific history and I was trying various things out over very small fences. Warts and all and all that. Yes, I admit I saw no stride to that tiny oxer and I left her to it to see how she coped. Her reaction (or lack of it) told me a lot. This mare is (or should be) pretty experienced. Worse things happen xc at times (as we all know) and I'd rather find out at home over a small sj.
I admit I am horribly out of practice and I have had a stern word with myself and sharpened things up after seeing the vids and taking on board the many helpful comments.
Yes, I have been round 3*. Admittedly, that was a while back! We had a great round and were absolutely flying, and were bang on the clock 3 from home when we slipped over going round a corner (under-studded, my choice due to the hard ground, my fault). So, finished clear but with loads of time faults. I also got Advanced placings on that horse, would have won at Savernake but for a SJ down. *shrugs* I've never claimed to ride like Pippa Funnell, have always been very open about my faults.
Oh, and I am going to get her checked out fully because although she feels okay (not spectacular, admittedly, but okay) it may well be that there's a physical reason for her problems.

 

[Bryndu]

GIRL...you is askin' ...but you ain't listenin'......and you ain't doin'...

Where was the stopping after the fence? ...You is runnin' along all floppy like after the jump....

BTW...the spread fence?.....she is making a much better shape...well done...

Bryndu

 

[kerilli]

GIRL...you is askin' ...but you ain't listenin'......and you ain't doin'...

Where was the stopping after the fence? ...You is runnin' along all floppy like after the jump....

BTW...the spread fence?.....she is making a much better shape...well done...

Bryndu

Ha, I'd already done the sharp stoppity thing quite a few times before my fairly-unwilling cameraman got there...! Okay, point taken, even more strictness required. I thought she did a nice canter to walk, not against the hand at all, after the upright? not good enough... ??
She made a better shape over the spread, yes, ta.

 

[KatB]

Ok, I know you've had a lot of responses so far, but here is my two penneth worth!

Yes, she is relatively experienced, but is also quite scopey so has probably never needed to change what she does, to get round in a way shes happy with, as horses don't have the same ideals as us, and she doesnt look terribly educated in her way of going, which suggests shes been allowed to let her scope take her up the levels until her lack of tools has caught her out so to speak!

Now, in my humble opinion, letting her slop along will only demonstrate what you already know. She needs to be educated to make her more aware, THEN you can test her a bit more by giving her a bit more ownership.

I personally dont think there is much wrong with her except shes a bit rigid in her way of going. Id want to see a LOT of work to make her more supple and athletic. Lots of flexion, lateral work, tonnes of transitions to get her infront of the leg, engaged and in self carriage. Raised poles, bounces of poles raised at alternate ends (remember Tim Stockdale??) to get her looser through her body, and lots of fences with placing poles to pulled out ground lines to give her room to get her shoulders up and making a rounder, more supple shape. Tiny fences wont make a scopey horse jump, so lots of gymnastic work will be your best bet.

 

[FrecklesMum]

Forgive me, haven't read all of the thread from start to finish but have you had her back scanned?

She is jumping exactly how my boy did - very genuine but constantly looking for me to set stride up and never tucking up in front - did exactly the same from a 2'3 fence to a 3'9 fence. It became scary how he would just suddenly appear not to 'try'.

Turns out he had very bad kissing spines and he was struggling. I would point out he never had a XC fault only became apparent in the SJ when he really had to crack his back and use himself.

Not trying to scare you but may be worth the price of a X-ray?