Pics and vids for those who asked...

kerilli

kerilli

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So, the pics are me and Flo a few days ago over little stuff, the vids are today playing around over very slightly bigger stuff. As you can see, those knees never totally come up into really safe territory...
Pics:
Teensy fences:
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DSC00357.jpg

Slightly bigger X planks, showing how she does/n't fold up:
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I hope they're all resized properly, photobucket doesn't want to play tonight, argh.
Crit welcome pls, I have some terrible habits, and haven't jumped decent stuff for ages.
vids: first time through little grid:
http://youtu.be/xm04RX4IpS4
a few more small fences:
http://youtu.be/Yf4p8I5YhNY
spread, upright, bigger grid. (distances were a bit more forward than i expected, her stride's not as big as i thought it'd be and my cameraman gets sniffy about moving fences, and i wanted to keep him sweet, prob not the best move. it walked 11yards 11.25 yards, she makes it look like 12 yards.)
The next one is the first time I've jumped anything a bit bigger on her. I think it's quite interesting that the top of her jump is past the fence. This is typical apparently, she doesn't wrap herself around the fence... no lack of scope imho, but not really knowing how to use herself well? I have no idea how to make it go slow-mo on youtube but can on my Mac and that is very... enlightening!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rpsV_ChfXc&list=UUcmiEj3iErZ2_d7O9FB6RIA&index=1&feature=plcp
and, oopsy moment, the cause of the real concern:
http://youtu.be/tPH7PjR2bfY
(okay, i could definitely have ridden the canter better, more forward, i think i relaxed and thought 'this is nice' (= not enough!) but when i realised we were on a bit of a dodgy stride i thought 'let's just see what she does if i leave it to her to chip in or stand off' as the fence was so small, and just brought my shoulders up and did nothing. and you can see she actually makes less effort, not more, when left totally to her own devices... considering she's not a kiddo and has done a bit (quite a few Novices etc), i was quite surprised at the result. :( :( i didn't pull to add one, btw. after that i rode the canter far more positively every time, which worked, but... oh well, I've explained all my musings about trying to improve her style and her thinking on the other thread. if i dominate the stride every time, it might be very messy when we're on a dodgy one... as here. good job that was small and fally-downy. she's done exactly the same to fixed N fences btw, this is nothing new.
lost of clever little exercises next I think...?
comments v v welcome, thanks.
 
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Ohh :( No idea, I just hope that other clever people come up with ideas!

I know Reg went from being dangly like her to having properly snappy knees over a year, which was kick started by a session or 2 on the lunge being left totally alone because he suddenly had to think for himself and you could see him working stuff out...
 
TBH, she looks like quite a big horse with a big front and I think one of the things about those big framed horses is that they need to take off further away from the fence in order to allow them time to get their front end off the ground, particularly if they're not naturally quick with their front legs. Where she's deep to the fence, she looks like she knows she's not going to be fast enough and almost doesn't bother trying. Whereas when she's put in a spot that she likes, she makes a big effort. I'm not sure you'll necessarily improve her natural technique but she looks scopey enough and I think if well placed to a fence, she'll gain confidence. Her best jump was over the big oxer to be honest and she may be one who will learn most from jumping sizeable things where she has to make an effort. I think it would be quite revealing to put the fences up and ride her on a longer stride (hunting?!) to the fences and see what she does.
 
K, my first thoughts looking at the earlier video was that you seemed to be doing a lot to help her. Interesting that when it went wrong you were seeing how she responded and that was her reaction. :\

I'm intrigued that she got to novice with this issue, would her then rider have guided her all the time or would she have been encouraged to think for herself sometimes? Sometimes with a home bred I find the owner if the rider can perhaps give too much support, so they don't develop that quick thinking independent streak that they might?

I know your mare was ace, im presuming her dads lines had efficient knees etc so there is no family trait?
 
Based on the pics and vids an exercise I would try is a top of the wings X pole with a placing pole on both sides of it. pop it in trot and see does she use herself a bit better. You can shorten or lengthen the trot poles depending on how much more "bounce" you want from her but I find it great to get them using their shoulders better
 
To be honest, I didn't see a lot of riding there, imo she really needs to be shortened up, held in front of the leg and between the hand and leg in a really bouncy canter before you're going to get any sort of a jump out of her. I also think you will find with bigger fences she will pic up more, but she strikes me as the type who will plow through rather than stop, which isn't ideal for eventing certainly! Presuming from your post she is a fair age, might be better to keep her for sj and dressgae if you're concerned about safety as she's got no excuse of youngster not knowing what to do. Is she fit? Have you tried loose jumping through a grid over substantial fences?
I'd be doing lots of gridwork with short strides to get her paying attention-in the vids she is doing a lot of lolloping along on the forehand.
 
If you look at the pics as well, you're probably further 'over' the fence than she is mentally in each pic-so need to adjust that I would say.
 
Years since I jumped but I would agree with SusieT that you are further over the fence than she is and perhaps folding yourself too much for the size of fence which might not help her front. I can remember being told off for that in the past.
 
The main thing that strikes me is that you are riding in a forward seat and in virtually all of the pictures you are ahead of her, which won't help the shoulder lifting issue. I'm not convinced you will really change her style now and I agree with susieT that she needs to be ridden between hand and leg more. FWIW many years ago I had one who jumped in a similar style and one person I trained with was adamant the horse was ridden with the intention of the take of spot a foot further away than ideal, to give him the space and thinking time to get legs out of the way.
 
I think you need to work on her canter. she is quite strung out and she has no options when she gets to a fence wrong, apart from what she is doing.
 
Her rider must be very brave to event at novice with those knees!! If the front limb action won't change, I'm guessing that its her adjustability that needs a hell of a lot of work. I think she'd benefit from loads of gridwork on very comfortable distances for her, and then gradually varying it so she doesn't always get her perfect spot but is still comfortable to jump from it.
She looks to me like she needs the front end holding up.... eagerly awaiting a lesson report, be really interesting to know what a good trainer would do with her :)
 
If I just saw those photos and vid I would say green baby that has done very little, willing but fairly clueless and probably not overly scopey. How she has competed at novice level jumping this way :confused:I assume she is very honest and as you say more scopey than appears.

Her canter is rather flat and on the forehand but at this stage needs improving on the flat rather than when you are jumping.I would probably use plenty of poles on the ground putting some on the corners as well as on the straight. I would put more pressure on her when doing flatwork to really try and get her using herself doing loads of canter work with plenty of changes within the pace.

I think I would go into grids out of trot using a placing pole, to try and get her sitting a bit more, using a fairly high x as the first part and ascending fences through it. possibly wider rather than higher to give her longer in the air. Bounces would be interesting to see.
Poles on the top of an oxer placed diagonally across can help get the shoulders up as can a v of poles to the centre of the fence but I would think most usual things have been used in the past so some new ideas probably required.

She is a lovely mare but going xc with those knees would give me serious concerns and I can see why you are banned for now.
Has she been seen by a physio regularly as there may be exercises to help that could be done on the ground, just lifting her legs up and stretching her daily could be useful, just a thought:)
 
Now please choose to ignore me because I am rather rubbish but from a purely objective view, the canter to me looked a little bit sloppy... then her jump was a little bit sloppy. She just looked like she was coasting along a bit, like driving with the clutch down. She needs to look more punchy? I agree she jumped the bigger one better.
Maybe she is just too sweet and carefree to take it seriously? I don't know. I think horses do find their style themselves usually through making mistakes. After she knocked the planks did she pick up better next time?
With J (and the horses iv'e had before), I think they got so used to helping rubbish muggins here out of trouble that they learned how to shorten/lengthen and snap up themselves. I think maybe get the canter more together and punchy, sit up the last couple of strides, let her make her own mistakes and see if that helps?
 
My horse is slow in front and sometimes does not rotate his shoulders enough. He has to be held off and I have to work hard to keep my shoulders back. We did one session of trot pole to 3 x short one stride uprights which got bigger and it was hard work and they rattled a lot but they did get quicker in front.
 
Cannot edit on phone but my other thought is why are you jumping a careless horse in boots? Take them all off. I have taken boots off my horse as owner told me to and he does have better front end. You are also very forwards with your shoulders and over folding even over tiny fences. All the way round think about pushing your hips forwards.
 
I think you've had some great advice already here, but I just wanted to add she looks like a really sweet mare and it's good to see you on board again!

If it were me, I would be wanting to take her to a few respected trainers who've seen it all and really getting to grips with this quickly. If this problem has been ongoing for a number of years you need to snap her out of it with some intensive help. Well that's what I'd do anyway. Good luck with her, she seems like a nice person if you know what I mean. :)
 
Probably exposing myself to much ridicule here, but I would not be looking to treat the symptoms, I'd be looking for the underlying cause. To me she looks really stiff from poll to tail, and she is making you slightly crooked, which suggests a problem to me. She looks like she is trying very hard not to overdo things in the air, and is obviously happier to hit a fence than use herself properly to clear it. Has she ever fallen?
 
Thanks everyone, lots & lots of food for thought.
Re: me overfolding & being in front of the movement - argh, lifelong bad habits, and I wasn't concentrating on my position at all, and am very rusty. Will get back on it. Crit duly noted and totally accepted. ;) ;)
(Tbh though, her former rider has a far more defensive position than me, never in front of the movement, and the mare's style was no better. that's not an excuse for me not to improve though!)
Kit - yes, i agree, i have big ground lines on every jump so she can't get in too close (incl the spread we hit), and i am trying very subtly to 'gap the fences' slightly (aim for a very-slightly-off-it spot, not a deep one... although i realise she NEEDS to be sharp/athletic enough to cope with a deep one too...) i don't think i dare go on the hunting stride to them, since if she's really off the fence she will touch down again with either one or both front feet...
NR, interesting that you thought i was doing a lot to help her... i was trying to do as little as possible. hmmm. maybe still doing too much.
(but then other people are saying i'm doing too little and that the canter is strung out and on the forehand. it doesn't feel on the forehand AT ALL, honestly, it feels light in front. interesting. more work required on it, definitely.)
NR, dad was good in front, no family trait either side. only thing is dad is CB x TB and that x with ID x TB dam is perhaps a contradictory mix... the stoicism of the CB + the devil-may-care of the ID actually encouraging the worst in both... (as in, 'i'll go for it, not give a ****, and if it goes wrong i'll not learn from it either' kind of thing... but that's probably being very over-analytical about it!)
NR, she was encouraged to think for herself and as you can see it didn't always work...
amage, typical exercises like that big X don't work. i agree, that'd be my first port of call normally, but she's had them all, religiously, for years. they make her more anxious and WORSEN her style. :( :( :(
SusieT, yes, 'not a lot of riding there' was what i was aiming at, trying to do as little as possible and leave her to work things out for herself. (I prob should have posted this on the end of the other thread rather than starting a new one, sorry. lots of explanations on there of what i'm attempting to do and why). I totally see your point about getting the canter really together etc etc but i guess i am trying to avoid dominating the stride that much iykwim. yes, she ploughs through rather than stop, apparently. as you say, maybe the answer will be to avoid xc... shame, as she has the rest. yes, she's fit. loose jumping = worse. doesn't matter if fences big and fixed, still worse, and gets even worse if she makes a mistake.
i'll shorten grid distances and try a bouncier canter and see how that improves things. thanks.
LEC, she's in boots because she's anxious, a worrier, not careless imho. i don't jump anxious horses with bare cannons, i want them protected, & if she was careless i'd totally agree.
Yes, totally agree, Training Training Training is the way to go. Sorting it...
Rowreach, that's funny, because she feels soft through topline etc to work on the flat, BUT stiffens it up when she takes off. over a fence.. starts bascule then locks her neck and back straight, a bit, kind of thing (see big fence in slowmo i think).
she fell as a foal (tried to jump p&r between fields and didn't quite make it, iirc) and she had a full rotational last year xc. :( :( :(
Thermal imaging and various other things booked, we'll see what they find...
thanks everyone. please keep it coming. interesting to hear so many different suggestions!
 
i was at a tim stockdale demo recently and he was saying that young big horses need to jump bigger fences ( not all the time obviously) as they need to learn to lift up and over the fence.

A big horse barely has to lift their legs to get over a fence of about 1m when you consider their belly is probably about 1m off the ground. So if they consistently jump small fences they get lazy with their front legs.

He made a suggestion that when your horse dangles its front legs a good exercise is to use 2 poles in a V on the top rail, and get it jumping bigger fences so it physically learns what is needed.
 
If she's a real worrier you probably don't want to try it, but has she done raised trot poles before? Just curious if she'd get the concept of snapping the legs without having to worry about jumping.

What a fascinating case!
 
TPO said:
QR-Agree with Rowreach. She didn't look to be on 2 tracks to me.
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Not qualified to comment on the horse's way of going or riding as I am a useless numpty(!) but the first thing I noticed was that she carries her tail to the left... Could be absolutely nothing but may be food for thought.

She looks like a lovely mare and I hope you find the source of the problem, failing that, send her down to me for hacking and dressage ;)
 
I've got to be honest, I don't know how fair it is on her you doing not much if she's a worrier - you're setting her up to fail because as you've said she's not a green baby, and she hasn't come from somewhere that hasn't taught her right and allowed her to find her style as a youngster. You already know her natural style is to not rotate through the shoulder and snap up, so doing nothing just reinforces that doesn't it? Maybe I'm wrong! You've got people who know far more than me on the case!

Assuming nothing physical, it may be that she just has a very small window of canter that allows her to get off the floor and over the fences and no-one has found it yet.

Have you tried really experimenting with her canter? What happens if you really razz her up so she is bouncing almost on the spot, so that if you watched a video you'd say it looks great but to look perfect the rider needs to quieten it down a notch? She's not her dam, so don't ride her like she is! You look over a fence on her like you almost think you're riding her dam.....(from the pics I've seen of you on her).
 
Hi
Firstly may I say...lovely horse...but a lazy git! All meant to be in the nicest sense of the word..
My first impression...actually is she doesn't ping off her front end...and you won't like to hear this...because she is allowed to :)
Ok here we go....and NONE of this is meant to be horrid...so please don't take it that way...I am offering advice...not destructive criticism...
The first thing I noticed in the vids....is that you are not stable in the saddle. Your lower leg flies around over the jump...and you come away from the saddle. Also you twist to the left in the air...so unbalancing the horse....
On the flat you are good.
The canter as most have commented is loose and flat...you are working like a Trojan...and she is a little bot 'whatever....'
The other thing that was a worry is that you didn't stop after the fences...and let her just grind to a halt at the end of the arena.
Ok..advice bit.
Lots of canter to halt and halt to canter transitions...and then moving on....and coming back until she is really listening. ...praise her when she does it well...but say nothing when she does it badly.
When you jump the fence...as she then powers on regardless afterwards..... put a pole down about 15 feet from the landing side of the fence...but not in the line of the getaway...so to the side of the getaway line...end on...and after you have jumped the fence you MUST halt by the edge of the pole...in whatever way you can....it might not look pretty...but it needs to be achieved...loads of praise when she does it. You will then be back in control.
Once she stops and is listening after the fence and you are back in control...put up an upright with two side poles angled to touch in the middle of the upright pole.....with the ends out by the feet...so you are jumping the point of a triangle ...this will lift her shoulders.....
Get someone to watch your lower leg over the fence and keep reminding you to keep it against the horses’ side, push down into you stirrups, and fold from your hips. Think you want to put your chest on the horse’s mane.
I hope this all helps...because I don’t see her as a ‘lost cause’
Good luck.
Bryndu
 
The fact she's had a full rotational and is still happy to take fences on no matter how wrong and go through them to me is a concern. I personally wouldn't want to xc this horse but that's me.
 
I hate to say it but I don't think she should go xc again. William Fox Pitt always says that he will never have a horse that leaves a leg (I know one of his did last year but it wasn't deemed to be a concern) as it just isn't safe. The fact that she's had a full rotational with that technique just proves that she isn't safe xc and I'm not sure you will ever be able to trust her enough even if she improves. IMO life is too short for that kind of risk when there are plenty of fantastic xc horses out there. No reason you can't dressage and sj though.

I appreciate you're trying to make her relax and improve her technique but I don't think it will improve with such small fences. She needs to be made to snap her knees up rather than canter over a little fence. Over the larger fence at the end of the grid her knees come up much better as she has to try. Exercise wise other people have suggested better ones than I can think of so I won't try there.
 
Lovely mare and a really interesting read, some very good advice.
The only thing I can think of is something we tried with a very large horse (over 18.2) who didn't seem to realise where his legs were was to let him jump a fence then a helper put a coat over it and changed the appearance of it, that really seemed to get a 'brain to legs to feet' message through and brought his legs up nicely. Another thing with the same horse, he doesn't respond well to jumping at home, the most he can do is twice over the same jump before he becomes very complacent and starts to run through them or just not bother, jump him off site round a course that he hasn't seen before and he gives most jumps alot of room.
Good luck with her.
 
kerilli said:
she fell as a foal (tried to jump p&r between fields and didn't quite make it, iirc) and she had a full rotational last year xc. :( :( :(
Thermal imaging and various other things booked, we'll see what they find...
thanks everyone. please keep it coming. interesting to hear so many different suggestions!
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Right, not surprised to hear she fell as a foal, and it also wouldn't surprise me if her way of going AND the fact she had a rotational is the result of this. I'll put my neck on the line (which is what I'd do if I was seeing you in the flesh :)) and say stop, find out what's wrong, and take it from there.

I know you say she feels soft on the flat but to me she looks wrong on the flat AND over a fence.
 
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