pics of barefoot hoof need opinions and thoughts please!!

[devonlass]

Sorry and there's more!!

There are other OP's who have come on here to start a discussion, and when it appears they are being criticised they take an antagonistic stance.
but I don't see OP telling us what is being fed.
Event lines can't be due to changing fields, they are too frequent, anyway they don't tend to produce ridges like that. OP does not agree that event lines signify anything .. not sure why but that is her opinion,
Also exercise, has this stopped due to lameness or not? certainly one would like to keep horse sound and barefoot, any farrrier can do a pasture trim.
Hope you sort this out OP, but even if you don't agree with everyone else, just try changing the diet and the management regime, because otherwise nothing is going to improve.

In the meantime please do try to be a bit more open to suggestions.

Firstly I have not been antagonistic,and certainly not in response to people being critical.
To be fair if you read what I posted originally and my replies I think it's more a case of people not actually reading what I put and what I was looking for.As mentioned I was not looking for a diagnosis,or advice on diet.I may have become a tad exasperated when having to keep repeating myself about that but I don't think that's unreasonable on my part,and despite it not being relevant to what I wanted to know I still did answer most queries regarding diet etc,as I am about to do with yours

My horse live out 24/7,I do not have stables.

They are on very good grazing,that changes on a regular basis,and that IS the reason for the event lines and ridges,sorry you don't agree but I am confident it is the case.

I cannot change the quality or type of the grass so I manage much of the year with restriction and muzzling.I supplement salt and magnesium as a straight and copper and zinc as part of a general purpose supp that is low in iron.I feed this in un-molassed chaff,minimum amount in summer upped as necessary in winter.
If I ever need to feed for weight (unusual but sometimes happens with cob in bad weather),then I use corn oil,never hard feed.
Hay is sadly rye grass hay as a rule and very good.I net to trickle the intake,but there isn't much more I can do there except only feed it when needed,which some years is hardly at all luckily,but others more so.

There you go not a perfect diet,but the best I can do and fail to see how it can be improved.Soil has been tested is ph neutral,so nothing to be done there either.

A perfect barefoot diet and grazing would be lovely but not achievable in my locality,or possible within my circumstances.

He is still in work.Minimal and hacking only but all roadwork.We currently avoid downhill and trotting as makes him uncomfortable but other than that he is fine and happy to go out.

As mentioned more than once I use a trimmer,not sure where the farrier reference came from.

I cannot and will not change his diet or management,and it would make no difference as that is NOT related to his current issue.He has been managed this way for well over a year and been fine so I would have to disagree with you that this is the problem or would improve anything.

I am perfectly open to suggestions,if they are relevant and will help with the current issue

coffin joint probs,
if your vet blocked out the coffin joint another option would be injecting with an anti inflammatory into that joint and see if it makes a differance. But with costs in mine

Once again thank you for your posts,they are most helpful and supportive

Coffin joint was the one other thing vet felt it *could* be as that was only other significant area in her opinion affected by the block.

She did say there were injections that we could use for this but only the Cartrophen (sp) ones in his case as the others require co-operation and/or in patient on his part which is not an option with him sadly.
I am not concerned about costs for that if it would help,but vet advised try to address foot balance first as she is sure this is the issue.

I've just read this thread all the way through. It does come across a little odd.

I find it a little strange that there is nothing that can be done to change diet. I admit I wouldn't change my horse's diet, but I've spent a long time constructing one that keeps her healthy. If there was a possibility her diet was an issue and could be affecting her health I would move heaven and earth to change it. But I guess OP you must have very good reasons for not wanting to discuss diet or change it or whatever and I respect that.

I don't think my actual posts are 'odd',perhaps just that many people are talking at cross purposes to what I was actually asking about,or that are not reading the answers and explanations i have given.That's not aimed at just you BTW,but is all i can think of as to why so many seem to think my posts odd or obstructive,apologies again for that being the case!!

I don't think i *need* to change his diet enough to move heaven and earth,and TBH it would need to be absolutely desperate for me to do that.
I am unsure how people think it is easy to change when they live out so their main 'diet' is grass,how do I change that apart from reseeding (which I have tried to do in my permanent paddock with non ryegrass varieties but it didn't thrive as too wet and waterlogged)??
Moving them is not an option as that would be equivalent to the 'heaven and earth' scenario to me.
I do all I can to work with what i have,and that's the best I can do.

The thread was to question why a horse progressing well for a year should have gone lame.

I think I am also correct in saying that the horse was initially taken out of shoes to resolve lameness issues, so shoeing it now would possibly be unlikely to be a good option.

That was pretty much what the thread was about,and specifically to ascertain if it could or should have been picked up before this point by those looking at and caring for his feet on a regular basis,as there may be decisions to be made on my part in regard to that in future if that makes sense,which would be a terribly difficult decision for me on a personal level so want to be sure.Sorry that's cryptic but hopefully makes sense!!

The last part is not correct BTW.He was not lame when I bought him shod,just what appeared to be badly shod and poor foot shape and balance.I always prefer barefoot anyway so porb would have taken him out of shoes anyway but the way his feet looked at the time just sort of made the decision for me.

Putting shoes on now IS an option I am considering TBH,but am reluctant so is way down the list for now,but if cannot make him comfortable fairly soon without might have to be a temporary solution,especially as I will struggle to work him over the next couple of months which won't be good for his feet obviously.

I am dreading seeing how long these posts are and maybe some kind of record even for this forum lol,but wanted to address everyones concerns especially as it seemed the point had got lost somehow along the way.

On another note I have taken some pics today as his feet look a little different again now as not been messed with for a few weeks.Would anyone be interested to see them?? Would it be best to post them here or start another thread so don;t get lost in the mammoth post lol.

 

[Exploding Chestnuts]

I recommend you don't start another thread, it will cause more confusion.
I mentioned a farrier to be subtle, the feet are not looking good.
I am pretty lucky that we have good farriers round here and as there is no trimmer they have to do all sorts of feet. I really can't see how the average trimmer can be as skilled at working with horses as someone who is doing 20-30 per week.
I am not decrying all trimmers, as with farriers there will be good and bad. I recently had a farrier out who had been working with horses for 40 year, but was still not able to discuss "the feet" all he said was... "difficult to believe this horse saw a farrier two weeks ago........" well this was how I interpreted his "look" when I explained that the horse had perfect feet six months ago and I was not responsible for his recent management.

I am at a loss as to what you want people on here to say....... you have done everything in your power , so how can we help?

 

[devonlass]

I recommend you don't start another thread, it will cause more confusion.
I mentioned a farrier to be subtle, the feet are not looking good.
I am pretty lucky that we have good farriers round here and as there is no trimmer they have to do all sorts of feet. I really can't see how the average trimmer can be as skilled at working with horses as someone who is doing 20-30 per week.
I am not decrying all trimmers, as with farriers there will be good and bad.

I am at a loss as to what you want people on here to say....... you have done everything in your power , so how can we help?

No prob about other thread,just his foot looks quite different left au natural so to speak and wondered if people would be able to see what if anything was going wrong with the trimming aspect of it by comparing the two lot's of pics.

Pretty much what I wanted people to say is exactly what you have said in regards his feet not looking good TBH.

Bottom line for me is that I have a lame horse for a while now,a £200+ vets bill to basically be told my horse has a wonky foot!! My concerns are how did this happen in terms of he has always had regular professional foot care (and myself looking at him all the time,I clearly should have paid more attention as well),should it have happened or been spotted way before now and where do I go from here?? If people on here can spot problems then should i be questioning my choice and manner of hoof care.
I know that all sounds a bit vague but I am trying not to lay blame obviously or directly as I appreciate I am not being objective at present as am so cross,and also never know who reads this and I don't want to alienate or be slating people or their skills publicly.

My experience of farriers BTW has sadly not always been ideal,although I do know one good one.Sure there are many more but I just don't know of them,would have to ask around for recommendations.

I have always used a trimmer,and the same trimmer actually who I thought up to now did a good job,and probably does to be fair,but hence the thread to establish if a better job could or should have been done.

Many thanx for the reply

 

[paddy555]

Having read all of your thread the only thing you seem to be asking, to me, is that people condemn your trimmer's work and blame this on the trimmer. Most people on here are unqualified. I don't see how anyone can tell from your photos, which are at poor angles and may well show only half of the story.
Did your vet condemn the trimmer's work? The vet appears to have been the only professional who has actually seen the feet and the horse. If the vet thinks balance is the issue why don't they take X rays and get the feet rebalanced?

As for the rest then the part I would think is important, which you clearly don't, is the diet. I have very few barefoot horses that could manage, 24/7, on the Devon grass you describe and rye grass hay and do any work. Actually none of mine could!

 

[cptrayes]

Your vet cannot ascertain foot balance without xrays. Several people have already told you this but for some reason you don't seem to want to hear it. Many wonky feet are completely right for the horse they are on, which is growing it that way in response to an asymmetric body.

I find you astonishingly closed minded to the idea that diet could in any way be affecting your horse. My bet is that if you get rid of those long toes and get him weight bearing on his toe callous as he should be, that he would be far from happy except in the middle of winter.

OP far from starting a new thread, I think you need to stop asking the same question over and over again in the hope that someone will finally give you an answer you like, and find yourself a professional trimmer (can be a farrier) and vet whose opinions you actually trust and work with them.

 

[doriangrey]

I agree with what most posters have already said and believe that you should at least get x-rays done. Rather than going down the shoeing route why not discuss boots and pads with your vet? I know it's not what you want to hear OP but it is quite probable that his pasture management is a contributory factor. Is it at all possible that you could turn his main paddock into a track system, get rid of some of that rich grazing and put in some different surfaces? If he has to have rich, Devon hay you could soak the bejaysus out of it or even replace with straw?

 

[LucyPriory]

OP - I have to say I agree with paddy555, cptrayes and doriangrey. It is not possible to judge trim accurately from the photos provided, although I can say I have seen much worse. From the photos the most glaring issues appear to be management ones. You say you don't want to and can't change the management. That is your choice, but don't blame the trimmer or any other HCP when your horse is not sound.

Time after time ad nauseum 'not diet' issues turn out to be diet issues after all. I agree with cptrayes on this.

And if you are concerned about foot balance and are unable to tell from external reference you need x-rays.

You say you trust your vet, that's brilliant. So I am not sure why you are posting on here rather than going with their advice.

I am sorry if this seems harsh, but I don't see how we can help you when you say management change is not possible and you appear to want to place the blame on your trimmer. If that is what you want to do, that is your perogative, but I am not sure that providing poor evidence and asking others to support you is particularly fair on the individual concerned. And I'd say the same for anyone, farrier, vet, whoever.

As another poster has suggested, if you can't/won't change the management boots may be the way forward. They provide much better protection for hooves than shoes and are not interfering with natural hoof mechanism 24/7

 

[amandap]

Having read all of your thread the only thing you seem to be asking, to me, is that people condemn your trimmer's work and blame this on the trimmer. Most people on here are unqualified. I don't see how anyone can tell from your photos, which are at poor angles and may well show only half of the story.
Did your vet condemn the trimmer's work? The vet appears to have been the only professional who has actually seen the feet and the horse. If the vet thinks balance is the issue why don't they take X rays and get the feet rebalanced?

As for the rest then the part I would think is important, which you clearly don't, is the diet. I have very few barefoot horses that could manage, 24/7, on the Devon grass you describe and rye grass hay and do any work. Actually none of mine could!

This is why I have no more to say! The focus of questions doesn't appear to be actually to help the horse.

Of course, I agree with CPT, P555, DG and LP etc.

 

[devonlass]

Lol I love this forum,full circle within a few pages,some things never change.

Having read all of your thread the only thing you seem to be asking, to me, is that people condemn your trimmer's work and blame this on the trimmer.
As for the rest then the part I would think is important, which you clearly don't, is the diet. I have very few barefoot horses that could manage, 24/7, on the Devon grass you describe and rye grass hay and do any work. Actually none of mine could!

Absolutely totally not true at all that I wish to blame my trimmer.In fact I would love to do lay no blame at her door whatsoever,that's the main reason I posted although I was trying to be discreet about it admittedly,maybe too much so as no one seemed to realise that was the point of the thread!!

I was hoping everyone would say the feet looked good in the pics and there was nothing to suggest anything was amiss or more could or should be being done with them.

However that is not the case and several people highlighted faults with them and suggested the best job was being done,how exactly is that me trying to lay blame?? Please explain to me because I have no problem being called out on things i have done but I resent being pulled up on something that I have actually tried very hard to not do!!

Your last point,well the things is this horse HAS been managing for the last year perfectly fine on my grass and barefoot!!

My other horse has been managing for 4 years on this land and management,so guess it is possible after all,I really,really wish people would read my posts before making assumptions as i have mentioned several times that diet and management are NOT the cause of the current problem,

I am aware that the land is not ideal for barefoot but I CANNOT change that so we do the best we can which we have mostly made work for us.
He wasn't lame until fairly recently but his management has not changed or his diet,so sorry but i think you're wrong in your assumptions,all of them.

Many wonky feet are completely right for the horse they are on, which is growing it that way in response to an asymmetric body.

I find you astonishingly closed minded to the idea that diet could in any way be affecting your horse. My bet is that if you get rid of those long toes and get him weight bearing on his toe callous as he should be, that he would be far from happy except in the middle of winter.

OP far from starting a new thread, I think you need to stop asking the same question over and over again in the hope that someone will finally give you an answer you like, and find yourself a professional trimmer

Seriously why are you mis reading posts so badly?? I am more than happy that some horses are not straight in their action or their feet,in fact that is what I totally believe to be the case with my horse.I am also completely happy to try and accomodate his natural shape rather than make his feet uniform.

However he has been being trimmed to make his feet 'normal',that is not my doing and what I am now questioning and what vet is suggesting subtly might be the problem.My main point was to establish if things should have been done differently with him based on his individual need and foot shape,but apparently that now just means i am blaming my trimmer when I should be looking at my faults and altering his diet,go figure...........................................................

I have a professional trimmer,although now I am more confused than ever as to whether that is part of the problem or not.

You said yourself a few pages back that you did not think diet was to blame for his current issues,but rather his foot shape,but now I'm astonishingly close minded because you've had a change of heart??

Rather than going down the shoeing route why not discuss boots and pads with your vet? I know it's not what you want to hear OP but it is quite probable that his pasture management is a contributory factor. Is it at all possible that you could turn his main paddock into a track system, get rid of some of that rich grazing and put in some different surfaces? If he has to have rich, Devon hay you could soak the bejaysus out of it or even replace with straw?

I have boots and pads (despite popular belief on this thread I am not new or novice to the world of barefoot ;-),and have tried most of the usual options).Boots are not ideal on him as due to his high heels, and non straight action they twist to the point of flipping off the side,even worse with pads,don't stay on more than a few minutes.For him to wear boots his heels need to be kept low all the time,which to me isn't ideal especially now when trying to see if allowing him to have a natural foot shape helps the lameness.

I cannot alter the landscape or get rid of any grazing,I do not own the land.Also it would be totally pointless as my paddock is literally under water for half the year (even now the bottom half is submerged and they are wading rather than walking!!),so any work done would be ruined every few months.

I am not being obstructive,I'm really not but my land is not perhaps the usual livery yard or standard grazing arrangement and has it's own challenges,which i am aware of you and used to but appreciate for others on here it might be difficult to imagine.

Soaking hay would be manageable if it was absolutely necessary,but it would be a massive struggle (i have no water on site so would have to wheelbarrow it home and soak there and then wheelbarrow it back down,and fit that in with my two jobs both of which are shifts,what a joy lol),have done it before but don't relish the idea TBH.

It is not possible to judge trim accurately from the photos provided, although I can say I have seen much worse. From the photos the most glaring issues appear to be management ones.

You say you trust your vet, that's brilliant. So I am not sure why you are posting on here rather than going with their advice.

That's excellent that no one can see an issue with the trim,that is what i was hoping for but did not seem to be what people were saying at the start of the thread,but am very happy with that conclusion makes my life a lot easier believe me.

I do trust my vet and am taking their advice,I was never asking for a diagnosis on here,unsure why people assumed I was?? again not reading what I actually wrote I suspect.

The horse has managed perfectly fine up to now,again I have mentioned this many times.Management may not be ideal,but it is not the root cause of this current problem.


Thank you all for your thoughts Am relieved no one can now see any issue with his feet,and that I have no need to consider changing practitioner or have to tell them I was not happy with the trim,which is all I was really wanting advice on,despite much confusion about this it seems.

Very grateful even so for those that have taken the time to reply,it's been interesting at least!!
Thanks again,and hopefully I can post positive news regarding his return to complete soundness soon

 

[ester]

Are you going to get xrays for your trimmer to work from?

 

[amandap]

Your last point,well the things is this horse HAS been managing for the last year perfectly fine on my grass and barefoot!!

My other horse has been managing for 4 years on this land and management,so guess it is possible after all,I really,really wish people would read my posts before making assumptions as i have mentioned several times that diet and management are NOT the cause of the current problem,

Going back on what I said...
Perhaps you need to check his metabolic status and test for PPID and IR if you haven't already or I've missed it in the thread.
Also do the slow mo video test to check how he is landing at a good walk on a flat level surface. Toe first landings (and other problems) can take time to produce lameness.
Having grazing (grass) tested will through up any mineral profile problems. Lastly, horses are individuals and although one may be fine on certain grazing it doesn't automatically follow that another will be.

Hope your vet can sort him out.

 

[doriangrey]

I'm a bit confused OP, are you saying that it's because he's been trimmed to look 'normal' that has caused him to land toe first and that's causing the lameness?

 

[paddy555]

Your last point,well the things is this horse HAS been managing for the last year perfectly fine on my grass and barefoot!!

My other horse has been managing for 4 years on this land and management,so guess it is possible after all,I really,really wish people would read my posts before making assumptions as i have mentioned several times that diet and management are NOT the cause of the current problem,



However he has been being trimmed to make his feet 'normal',that is not my doing and what I am now questioning and what vet is suggesting subtly might be the problem.




Am relieved no one can now see any issue with his feet,and that I have no need to consider changing practitioner or have to tell them I was not happy with the trim,which is all I was really wanting advice on,

just because your horse has coped with his management in the past doesn't necessarily mean he can now. Just because your other horse can cope doesn't mean this one can.

From what I read your vet is subtly suggesting the trim may be the problem. You post some pics on here, which show nothing one way or another, and then reach the conclusion that you are relieved no one sees any issue with his feet when several issues have been pointed out. So you are apparently satisfied with misinterpreting a few people on the internet above the suspicions of your vet who you say you trust?
Not being rude but is this thread simply a wind up?

 

[Buddy'sMum]

Am relieved no one can now see any issue with his feet,and that I have no need to consider changing practitioner or have to tell them I was not happy with the trim...

Eh?? Have you actually read any of the responses?

Thanks again,and hopefully I can post positive news regarding his return to complete soundness soon

For your horse's sake, I hope so too, although I for one won't be holding my breath..!

 

[devonlass]

Are you going to get xrays for your trimmer to work from?

Not at this stage,vet does not think it necessary enough to put us,and my wallet through his behaviour a second time.
Couldn't have been done even if wanted to on the first visit BTW as he would need sedating to be still but if don't sedate him straight away before he knows what's going on he doesn't respond to it at all and we couldn't have done that obviously as needed him awake for the lameness work up!! Trimmer is hopefully going to be happy to try the leaving foot pretty much alone approach,so no real need for them anyway at present.

If it doesn't improve then yes we will x ray as I will also want to check for coffin joint issues at that point.

Going back on what I said...
Perhaps you need to check his metabolic status and test for PPID and IR if you haven't already or I've missed it in the thread.
Also do the slow mo video test to check how he is landing at a good walk on a flat level surface. Toe first landings (and other problems) can take time to produce lameness.
Having grazing (grass) tested will through up any mineral profile problems. Lastly, horses are individuals and although one may be fine on certain grazing it doesn't automatically follow that another will be.

Hope your vet can sort him out.

Thank you for that,although am not sure what I would be testing him for IR etc for??

He does not have a single symptom of cushings,and I am sceptical that his lameness is lammi related or anything that would indicate him being insulin resistant.Sorry I am genuinely confused why you have suggested this,apologies if have missed something obvious!!

The video is a really good idea,myself,vet and trimmer have said we should do it,but neither trimmer nor I have a video facility on our phone and we were so caught up being squished and dodging being squished that was forgotten about!!

I don't think he does land actually toe first anyway BTW,more flat on that foot but not square,he is landing on one part of the foot and not loading evenly,was first thing vet noticed.Not toe first though as such,but not heel first either anymore although he was for a while.

No horse is going to be fine as such on my grazing TBH,but mine manage pretty well with some intervention on my part.It is always a juggling act and some years are better than others weather depending (this was a good summer as was dry,made life much easier!!),but for the most part they cope,and you will just have to trust me when i say I NEVER underestimate or overlook diet,but in this case it is not the problem and altering it won't fix the problem.

Thanks again for taking the time to reply

I'm a bit confused OP, are you saying that it's because he's been trimmed to look 'normal' that has caused him to land toe first and that's causing the lameness?

Oh thank the lord,where have you been this whole thread lol

Pretty much seems to be the case,although as mentioned above I am not certain he is landing toe first exactly.
Trimmer and myself (on trimmers advice obviously!!) have been consistently trying to give him a uniform/'normal' foot,in particular keeping the heel low and even.
It would seem that the problem may be that he actually needs more support and a higher heel as that is how it naturally grows,and that due to his confo trimming him 'even' does not suit him either and has caused him to load unevenly on one part of the foot.His action is decidedly not straight to begin with but vet thinks this in itself is not a problem as long as he lands square so to speak,which by trimming him with a 'normal' foot he can't seem to do.

This is how I understood it at the time,maybe not exact as memory of what was said perhaps not as clear as it was at the time,but something like that scenario anyway.

Hope that's not as clear as mud lol

 

[devonlass]

Apologies I did not see these before other post.

From what I read your vet is subtly suggesting the trim may be the problem. You post some pics on here, which show nothing one way or another, and then reach the conclusion that you are relieved no one sees any issue with his feet when several issues have been pointed out. So you are apparently satisfied with misinterpreting a few people on the internet above the suspicions of your vet who you say you trust?
Not being rude but is this thread simply a wind up?

Would you please read the last few posts where it was suggested that there was nothing glaringly obvious wrong with his feet other than management and diet issues,and that I was wrong for 'trying to lay the blame with my trimmer' (which I never did anyway but hey ho).
It is very obvious that I will not do right for doing wrong with some people and that opinions change like the wind about whose fault it is,it did a complete turn around between pages 1-4,how is that my fault?? How is that me creating a wind up??

I hold myself just as accountable as my trimmer or anyone else,and I was interested to see if we had missed anything,and if so then if I did need to rethink my choice of practitioner,although believe me I would rather not go down that road,although you are right in assuming I would not be so stupid as to base that decision solely on the word of people on this forum ;-),but other peoples opinions and insight can be useful when trying to resolve a situation that one is too personally involved in friendship wise to see it totally objectively.

Go back and read my posts and others and please tell me where i have gone wrong in this thread or been to blame for the animosity other than insisting it is not diet related.

Eh?? Have you actually read any of the responses?


For your horse's sake, I hope so too, although I for one won't be holding my breath..!

Yes have you??

Well luckily I'm a little more optimistic than you,am sure he will come good evetually

Thank you all again for your time

 

[amandap]

Thank you for that,although am not sure what I would be testing him for IR etc for??

He does not have a single symptom of cushings,and I am sceptical that his lameness is lammi related or anything that would indicate him being insulin resistant.Sorry I am genuinely confused why you have suggested this,apologies if have missed something obvious!!

l

Because he has unexplained lameness coinciding with later in the year, repeated ripples in the hoof wall, high heels, evidence of thrush and having just read your last post, difficult behaviour around hooves which often points to foot pain indicating possible inflammation in the hooves of dietary or metabolic origin.

I am afraid I don't think this will be a one wonder fix you need to look at every aspect and improve things from his POV as much as you can.

Perhaps you can borrow a phone/camera and a friend can help you when he is calm.

You have reasons why you can't do so many things, it's a mind set you must get out of and switch to thinking how can I make this work in a different/better way.

ps. The ripples are a glaringly obvious sign of diet/metabolic distress to me. If you wanted opinions on the trim you should have been clearer but many of us have pointed out the problems we see.

 

[cptrayes]

just because your horse has coped with his management in the past doesn't necessarily mean he can now. Just because your other horse can cope doesn't mean this one can.

From what I read your vet is subtly suggesting the trim may be the problem. You post some pics on here, which show nothing one way or another, and then reach the conclusion that you are relieved no one sees any issue with his feet when several issues have been pointed out. So you are apparently satisfied with misinterpreting a few people on the internet above the suspicions of your vet who you say you trust?
Not being rude but is this thread simply a wind up?

This.


Devonlass there IS something glaringly wrong with his feet. Unless the photos are misleading he is loading peripherally and in sensitive horses this is enough to bring on EXACTLY THE KIND OF LAMENESS YOU DESCRIBE.

I hope you heard that this time.

Your vet's advice that xrays are not required is, in my view, negligent when faced with a lame horse and an owner who proposes to change nothing, except to perhaps let feet that are already overlong get longer.

I am another who will not be holding my breath for this horse to come sound unless you take action to get the foot working as it should.

 

[2horsesnomoney]

This.

.

Your vet's advice that xrays are not required is, in my view, negligent when faced with a lame horse and an owner who proposes to change nothing, except to perhaps let feet that are already overlong get longer.

I am another who will not be holding my breath for this horse to come sound unless you take action to get the foot working as it should.

I compleatly agree with this, x-ray and then move forward with vets and trimmer/ farrier once you know what you are dealing with. giving the feet time to grow and leave them alone will only make your problem and lameness worse as it will compromise the heel further and increase the pressure on the sore/ uncomfortable heel.

x-ray is your only next option if you want to return this horse to soundness IMO, no vet, trimmer, farrier or owner or us can know what is going on inside that foot without x-rays.

 

[Buddy'sMum]

Well luckily I'm a little more optimistic than you,am sure he will come good

Not a chance, because you have no intention of taking the necessary steps to return him to soundness.

 

[doriangrey]

But, isn't it pain that makes a horse land toe first? It is natural for the horse to land heel first and he does that with a healthy foot doesn't he. If you are not going down the x-ray route OP what is your plan, will you allow him to self trim to see if that will sort out his lameness?

 

[cptrayes]

And if you do think you can get him right by self trimming, you'll need to do hours and hours on abrasive surfaces to get the sole callous into wear, and you can't do that with an unsound horse, can you?

Rock.

Hard place.

Better advice and information needed from both trimmer and vet.

 

[doriangrey]

A catch 22 situation really, I'd be interested to know what kind of rehab/treatment will be eventually decided on.

 

[devonlass]

Because he has unexplained lameness coinciding with later in the year, repeated ripples in the hoof wall, high heels, evidence of thrush and having just read your last post, difficult behaviour around hooves which often points to foot pain indicating possible inflammation in the hooves of dietary or metabolic origin.

You have reasons why you can't do so many things, it's a mind set you must get out of and switch to thinking how can I make this work in a different/better way.

If you wanted opinions on the trim you should have been clearer

You see this is how I KNOW people are not actually reading what I write!!

His lameness did not start later in the year it started in the summer,I have stated this many times.

He is not 'difficult' around his hooves,where did I say this?? I said he is difficult for the vet,nothing to do with his hooves,he's a bad mannered pig on the ground generally although better than he was when I got him but he is particularly bad with certain things,the vet being one of them,doesn't matter if they're doing his teeth or his feet,he's downright bl**dy rude and difficult to handle.

Actually know I don't need to get out of this mindset,I will do what I can do within reasonable limits,the rest I will work around.The things i say I cannot do are exactly that,things i cannot do because there are certain conditions within how I keep my horses that I cannot change.I am unsure why this is so difficult to understand,but I appreciate that none of you know my horse or how he is kept etc and that it is normal to compare others circumstances and ideals with our own,and suggest things on that basis.I think you will just have to trust me that when I say I *cannot* do something it means exactly that.Thanks again for the input

I really have tried to be clear BTW on what I was looking for,several times now to be fair,but I appreciate there has been an overload of info so perhaps my intentions got lost in amongst it all.

This.

Devonlass there IS something glaringly wrong with his feet. Unless the photos are misleading he is loading peripherally and in sensitive horses this is enough to bring on EXACTLY THE KIND OF LAMENESS YOU DESCRIBE.

I hope you heard that this time.

Your vet's advice that xrays are not required is, in my view, negligent when faced with a lame horse and an owner who proposes to change nothing, except to perhaps let feet that are already overlong get longer.

I can 'hear' you fine,I am just baffled by your changing of opinion.

First you said there was a problem with the trim,then you said there wasn't and it was diet,now you are saying again that it is a problem with his feet.I am genuinely confused as to your point and what you consider is the main problem.

I never said I was going to allow his feet to grow long,and by that I am assuming you mean on the toe?? My trimmer is going to trim his foot but is going to be more minimal than usual and NOT take much off the height off the HEEL like she usually would and see if this helps him find his own foot balance as it would seem trimming his foot as it *should* be trimmed in terms of the norm has not worked for him.

I apologise if this was one of the few things I actually wasn't clear on as I did say she was going to leave pretty much alone,but I meant in the sense of not trimming to give him a 'normal' foot like she usually does,rather than she wasn't going to do anything,but I appreciate I could have been more informative on that,I just assumed it was obvious from what I had said about his balance etc,but I probably should have been clearer.

In regards to x-rays please read what I said about them earlier.If needed they will be done but could NOT be done on the first visit anyway so a mute point really.

Not a chance, because you have no intention of taking the necessary steps to return him to soundness.

Well we will see I guess but thanks for sharing

As enlightening as your replies are,maybe it would be better if you refrained from responding any further as TBH I'm not finding them very constructive,thank you.

 

[amandap]

He is not 'difficult' around his hooves,where did I say this?? I said he is difficult for the vet,nothing to do with his hooves,he's a bad mannered pig on the ground generally although better than he was when I got him but he is particularly bad with certain things,the vet being one of them,doesn't matter if they're doing his teeth or his feet,he's downright bl**dy rude and difficult to handle.

The video is a really good idea,myself,vet and trimmer have said we should do it,but neither trimmer nor I have a video facility on our phone and we were so caught up being squished and dodging being squished that was forgotten about!!

I made an incorrect assumption, as the trimmer was there I assumed his hooves were being looked at.


Poor boy.

 

[Buddy'sMum]

Well we will see I guess but thanks for sharing

As enlightening as your replies are,maybe it would be better if you refrained from responding any further as TBH I'm not finding them very constructive,thank you.

You can simply choose to ignore my replies, Devonlass. You know, just like you've chosen to ignore all the replies pointing out that your lame horse's hoof is clearly unhealthy and giving you constructive advice.

 

[devonlass]

I made an incorrect assumption, as the trimmer was there I assumed his hooves were being looked at.


Poor boy.

And you would have been completely right to make that assumption as it appears I did not write 'when vet was there we were so busy being squished we forgot!!' Missing words is one thing but i am now missing entire sentences,huge apologies that was completely my error!!

Trimmer and I have said about the videoing but we can't,vet said about it when she was there but then got put on the back burner as we tried to manage to the little toad!!

I am unsure why he is a poor boy lol.Trust me there is nothing poor about this lad,he's just rude and bolshy when he minds to be.
Typical welshie that's been allowed to walk all over people his whole life,literally!!

 

[ester]

I just think without xrays you are making changes in the dark as such so will have no idea if what you are trying to do/change to get him better - and your trimmer is in the dark too.

My trimmer's camera is an important part of her armoury - we have slow motions from day 1 when he was landing flat - but also landed laterally on his lame foot which am sure caused ligament issues.

Re. the cushings IR etc - I suppose many would consider the ripples to be a symptom that would make it worth testing. But I suppose that depends if you are in the position to a) make changes then required or b) give prascend anyway. - fwiw I had Frank cushings tested even though he didn't have any particular symptoms apart from being of age (20). He is of type (welsh) for IR but management would be quite good for that anyway and his feet seem happy.

 

[devonlass]

But, isn't it pain that makes a horse land toe first? It is natural for the horse to land heel first and he does that with a healthy foot doesn't he. If you are not going down the x-ray route OP what is your plan, will you allow him to self trim to see if that will sort out his lameness?

As mentioned he does not appear to be landing exactly toe first,More flat when on level terrain,and he is landing heel first when going downhill which is why this is mainly when he is lame one would assume??

The plan is to allow him to self trim mostly as long as he appears comfortable with it.Trimmer will keep him tidy and attend to any overgrowth that isn't desirable of course.Main thing is the heels themselves,TBH as they have been consistently trimmed as low as possible which vet thinks might be a big part of the problem.

And if you do think you can get him right by self trimming, you'll need to do hours and hours on abrasive surfaces to get the sole callous into wear, and you can't do that with an unsound horse, can you?

Rock.

Hard place.

Better advice and information needed from both trimmer and vet.

Very much so a rock and a hard place.

However he is still being worked,although not as much as you have mentioned,that would be unreasonable to expect of him at present i agree.

Luckily he can manage going out on varying surfaces a couple of times a week (weather and time permitting!!),and he is more often than not sound in walk and on the level.He's more than happy to go out and as forward as he ever is so we are just working within what he tolerates at the mo and hoping it is enough to get some self wear and see how that pans out.

Trimmer and vet aren't exactly on the same page last i heard which made a tricky situation even more tricky (part of my reason for asking opinions on here about the look of his feet and trim etc is that I don't feel can be as open as I would like with trimmer),but hopefully that will have changed after some time to reflect and some communication.

A catch 22 situation really, I'd be interested to know what kind of rehab/treatment will be eventually decided on.

Certainly is,horses never do make life easy though IME ;-)

I am hoping addressing his foot balance will be all that will be required,and that he can be allowed to self trim to a point,and to a state he is comfortable with.

I am happy to post further down the line with any progress he makes if anyone would like to know

 

[devonlass]

I just think without xrays you are making changes in the dark as such so will have no idea if what you are trying to do/change to get him better - and your trimmer is in the dark too.

My trimmer's camera is an important part of her armoury - we have slow motions from day 1 when he was landing flat - but also landed laterally on his lame foot which am sure caused ligament issues.

Re. the cushings IR etc - I suppose many would consider the ripples to be a symptom that would make it worth testing. But I suppose that depends if you are in the position to a) make changes then required or b) give prascend anyway. - fwiw I had Frank cushings tested even though he didn't have any particular symptoms apart from being of age (20). He is of type (welsh) for IR but management would be quite good for that anyway and his feet seem happy.

I can totally see the point you are making re: x rays,but I am going to wait and see for a while rightly or wrongly.
On the basis that hopefully trimmer won't actually be doing too much intervention wise as that's kind of the point to let him shape his own hoof somewhat,also that he is so difficult to do anything with medically wise and vet is happy that we can manage without for now.
As mentioned a page or so back if no improvement or he get's worse then we will have to bite the bullet and do them,apart from anything else I will want to be sure it isn't coffin joint at that point.

The testing thing is just that I don't really see the need,I'm going to test for things that I don't have any reason to suspect he has,especially as again he is such a pain for the vet.

The only thing he has are the event lines but I really think that's as a result of the very changeable and rich grazing we have rather than any illness.
For what it's worth my other horse get's the event lines just the same and always has done.Rarely have problems with his feet,although out of the two he can get footy at times and has to be managed very strictly depending on season,but then he is also the worlds best doer so that doesn't help.

Anyway am waffling again,I know they're feet are never going to be ideal and barefoot is always going to be a struggle management wise (probably be easier shod TBH on my land and with my lifestyle,but keep prefer them bear so we keep at it),but I really don't think they're that bad to indicate any illness,and mostly they're actually pretty trouble free so kind of a if it ain't broke don't fix it scenario.Current problems excluded obviously!!

Many thanx for the reply