pics of Ellen Whitaker riding at home, in H&H this week...

TTC, i noticed that the moment i saw the photos, but decided not to comment negatively upon her...! fwiw i have an old copy of H&H upstairs with a pic of Meredith Michaels-Beerbohm in it, with her legs in exactly the same position... it doesn't seem to hold her back or to adversely affect her horses either!
i agree about the pics of polo ponies (can't help thinking polo is a law unto itself though, plus they aren't likely to have thousands of kids emulating them imho) and the teeth-removing left-behind-while-jumping shots, but hopefully that's only occasionally, and again, they aren't role models for the younger generation...
 
This forum is hilarious.

prudunce, if you want to be taken seriously, may I suggest you get a vague grasp of the English language?

Ellen is not a top rider purely because of "her Dad & uncle". Of course she has access to good training and horses, but she works hard to produce them herself and has had some very difficult projects (such as Ladina B). On the other hand she also has the pressure and expectation associated with being "a Whitaker" and I think she handles it pretty well.

I know the family and how they treat and ride their horses. I'd have no problem in sending mine to them.

Show jumpers would not perform for their riders as they do if they had serious issues with how they were ridden. A horse doesn't jump a 1.60 technical track under an average rider. Showing is exactly what it sounds like - all for show - there's no correct producing or riding involved whatsoever. (I've worked in a top showing yard and left feeling I would happily ban it and shoot everyone involved, but that's a whole other thread.) Of course cruelty happens in SJ, and all equestrian sport, but I think most of you are blowing this photo WAY out of proportion.

You seem to have failed to notice that, in said photo, Larry is working through nicely. The photographer will have taken a million photos and chosen to use this one. Perhaps Larry was looking at the camera and they asked her not to let him? There could be any number of reasons for why she had the reins tight at that moment.

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They shud take time and understand the horse& how its mind works like us everyday riders!!!! How wud EW like having her neck tied in to her chest eh????who can say thats good or comfy for a horse???At the top its all about money image,they dont give a hoot about the horses,unless they r making them money!!!

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Further to translating what you said there, I'd be interested to see some pics or videos of you riding a well bred, SJ fit warmblood stallion as well as she does - since you know so much and all. Humour me, post some? Please?
 
You're right Kerilli; turned out feet don't seem to have a negative effect for some people - sickening isn't it! The rest of us try so hard to get things right and still get balled at by our instructors!

Agree Munchkin, everyone sound to be such great riders. I too would love to see some photos. It only seems to be the Intelligent Horsemanshipp website where people will post photos of themselves riding or long reining - and then wonder why they get a slating!!
 
ha,its all bit girly and bitchy with this post!!! I not sure who commented on my english but if u was typing on a bl&&dy 6'' pc(no joke)ur fingers wud press a fe wrong buttons!!!!
See ive done it again(no W of few)bloody computer!!! arrrrrrr drives me mad!!!

Theres always going to be people against and peps sticking up for others.We all have our own opinions,hence having this forum!!!

still say that IF you was such a gd rider,then why the need for lots of gadgets for everyday work>??i agree they are fine in moderation!!
And im sure EW wudnt even flinch at these posts,she prob use to it!!! Any1 in the public eye gets slated,thats life!!
 
Now I have got a copy of H&H and have seen the pictures..... am I the only one who doesnt think EW is pretty?
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Stunning figure though I do agree
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That does sound b*tchy and someone else called her spoilt, that is why I accused the forum of being a vipers nest of b*tchy horsey women.

I honestly don't think if the pics had been Carl Hester the reaction would have been quite so personal and vitriolic.

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Gosh I do think you're overreacting a touch.

I was the one who said that IMO Ellen can be a bit of a stroppy madam and acts a bit spoilt. That is my opinion from what I've seen of her [she doesn't seem to be a good loser to me] and from experiences other people I know have had with her.

That said, I was actually defending Ellen! My point was that despite the poor attitude she can sometimes display, I would far rather that than someone who is lovely all the time to the cameras and beats the crap out of a horse behind the scenes, and that I think criticising her for her use of draw reins is very petty indeed! I think Ellen is a very talented rider, and I am absolutely sure she works very hard - but it is possible to think all of those things and still be able to view her behaviour objectively and admit that on occasions, she comes across as a bit stroppy!
 
dont have any issues with the way her horses are produced! they all come out and do the job beautifully! they all jump amazing use their backs and hocks and she is bloody good!! my only thought when reading and looking at photos is how much her toes stuck out! but EXCELLENT jockey and SUPERB horses and results speak for themselves. So shake off the little green monsters on your shoulders or backs, if only the rest of us could do so well!!
 
TBH, I do think OP seems to spend a lot of time thinking about what other people are doing wrong. I think she has horses best interest at heart though.

I also think people bang on about "role models" too much nowadays, why can't people just take responsibility for themselves instead of trying to blame people in the public eye for everything.

As for draw reins - can't say I'm really that bothered if EW has them on in a H&H, at least she's not trying trying to cover anything up.. probably because she's not actually doing anything wrong!

As for EW - I know her and the family a bit, she used to be at all the same shows when we were kids and I worked on their yard one summer. I don't think she's really had the same upbringing as normal girls and her dad pushes her very hard. I'm not keen on him at all. I think she's generally quite a nice girl and perhaps doesn't deserve all the bad stuff written about her. Young, very competitive riders probably just aren't quite as good at dealing with disappointments than the older riders, but there is always time to learn.

I just don't understand where all the hatred comes from with some people!! (Not talking about OP here!) She's a young girl doing very well in a sport full of old fogey men - I think she deserves some support from the girls!
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I posted yesterday when I had not seen the pictures now I have I am shocked!

Can the girl not ride without draw reins ( and yes I know she can ) however the bit that really makes me furious is both pictures on two different horses, and the only pictures of her riding show her in draw rens and as mentioned being used inappropriately, which suggests to me ok probably incorrectly that she always rides in them!

The horses faces tell a story .

Now I know better than to copy her, but how many of our younger riders who idolise her know the same.

And this has nothing to do with the fact it is ellen whittaker, my reponse would be the same whoever the rider except due to the influencial factor mentioned above to vulnarable young fans the fact it is is even worse!

Now need something alcoholic to calm down.

I hate abuse of horses, any abuse!
 
The horses faces say it all? The chestnut has it's ears pricked and the bay just looks like it's concentrating.

Abuse? Get a grip for gods sake.
 
Please explain to me/everyone here who thinks you're nuts exactly how Ocolado looks so 'stressed' - considering he was probably under saddle for 5-10 mins, the duration of the photoshoot?

And as I requested from the previous know it all, please post a vid of your superior horsemanship (I notice previous request was ignored and poster disappeared)

P.S. The word you were looking for is "definitely".
 
Well, I don't see it at all. To me he looks like a fit, well cared for horse going for a walk up the lane - all be it in draw reins.

If you think that is abuse then I dread to think how you must feel about all the other animals in the country who are actually miserable/hungry/in fear.

I think if I came back as an animal I can think of much worse than being a SJ who might have to be "abused" by wearing draw reins when I went for a hack or a school.
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Ellen Whitaker, the same way as I like Jordan, you get what you see, both wear their hearts and emotions on their sleeves, neither are perfect but do you know what I can bet not one of us on here are either. She has not had it easy at such a young age, although being born a Whittaker has helped her she has had more than her fair share of ups and downs in her young career.

However, use of gadgets should be used correctly. Especially in a photo shoot in a well respected magazine. It is very sad to see that basic horsemanship skills are being lost these days, due to fashions, quick fixes or ignorance.

Draw reins should never ever be used tighter than the snaffle rein, you ride your horse into the contact, draw reins are supposed to be there to stop the horse raising his head to high, not as a pulley system to pull it into the desired shape.

I have got very despondent with dressage and horses working at novice that 5 years ago, working long and low, but active behind won classes now they are getting very low points compared to those working in a false outline, broken behind the poll and hocks trailing due to incorrect riding in draw reins and everything screaming false at you.

To actually have a poster on here admit that their "well known" dressage trainer makes her ride off of the draw reins, suggests that there is something very very wrong with the system of training.

Maybe the future is competition horses is that they are wooden in their way of going, false outlines and have short competitions careers because of misuse of gadgets.

Lets go back to the good old days of snaffles, no martingales forward thinking and moving horses that are not stiff or in forced outlines, slightly above the bit but active hocks that can do the movements and the jobs required with ease and comfort. That we hear of into their late teens and are household names.

Bad riders make bad horses isn't the joy of horses their expressive, natural and extravagant movement and behaviour. I certainly do not want my horses to become robotic in their movement and feel unable to express themselves, which seems to be what a lot of people strive for these days. Hey a shy may drop my marks slightly but such is life, but the lift and correct active paces will lift those marks back up without resorting to gadgets to force a point.

It may take longer to achieve the results your require, but surely its worth it, plus your horse will not break down due to oestoarthritis, muscle damage etc etc that are common place in todays horses as we produce more and more false strain on their fragile bodies.

Its about time we got back to true horsemanship and let the horse do what they do best work as a team with the rider, not be forced into submission and subserveant.
 
That's is funny - I saw it and thought it would only be me that was surprised that draw reins were used for hacking out and relaxing!
 
hear hear scally, very finely put. please please email that to H&H letters, and i'll come over and drink the champers if you get Letter of The Week. (i'm noble like that, you know!)
in response to the comment about me spending a lot of time thinking about what other people do wrong, fair enough, i spend a lot of time thinking about what i do wrong too! and yes, it is all for the horses, it's not just random bitching, i know the stupid mistakes i made before i knew any better, and that it was not the best thing for my poor horses. so, i'm anti draw-reins (unless being used carefully and properly by an expert), i'm anti genuine horse-squishers, i'm anti unsupervised ignorant kids yanking their ponies around, i'm anti ignorant people severely underfeeding or overfeeding their horses, and lots of other stuff. i love horses. simple...
draw reins are one of the easiest ways to abuse a horse in the name of "roundness" and looking good (and no, i don't personally think EW is abusing those horses at all in the pics!) so their use should be judicious, and a publication such as H&H, which must know the influence it has, should be much more careful about selecting pics of those who are idolised by thousands of kids...!
 
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To actually have a poster on here admit that their "well known" dressage trainer makes her ride off of the draw reins, suggests that there is something very very wrong with the system of training.


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On some of the other Forums I frequent peeps have told stories of children riding in draw reins as well as pulling the ponies heads onto their chests!

My belief too is that you don't have to be an expert or even horse owner/rider to see an animal in discomfort!! Perhaps some have just got so used to seeing horses like this it has become 'normal' in their eyes.
 
Let me add my support to scallys post too.

Spot on and very well written

and having just read what amandap has wriiten I agree there too I too think people have got so used to seeing a horse in distress it does become normal.

Draw reins when use correctly should only be picked up ie in contact only very briefly and only in the most professional of hands ( which yes ellen has), so they are used as a sugestion.
 
Excellently put Scally I have read this growing post with interest but havent contributed till now.
Totally agree with your point about horses working long and low and through from behind, this is how OH and I strive to ask our horses to work with us, all in snaffles and no gadgets, but I can easily be disapointed at competetions when horses with false outlines and as I say their hocks in Bristol (I live in the Midlands) always fair much better. Have had some right "discussions" with OH about this sometimes thinking prehaps we are wrong in our methods, but both of us refuse to follow the fashion of the moment.
 
absolutely, alwaysbroke, me too.
unfortunately the major fixation at the moment seems to be that as long as the neck is arched and the face is vertical (or behind the vertical, cos OBVIOUSLY that's really good too...!) then the horse looks lovely, no matter what it's back end or its back is doing...
 
Ok so i've basically left this forum but i just thought i'd have a little look to see if the ellen photos had caused a fuss and surprise surprise they have. I use draw reins all the time on one of my horses, he goes better in them, its much safer to hack him in them and it means he can be in a snaffle at home rather than the stronger bit i compete him in. i saw the photos, i noticed the draw reins, i did not then think oh god i'd better start using mine like that too. as has been said the photo of locarno was a snapshot and a bloody nice photo of them both too. has anyone considered that ocolado might not be too impressed with the camera and various other equipment he was expected to walk towards? james fisher said at hoys how spooky and sensitive the horse is and as the owner of a ridiculously spooky and sensitive show jumper i know i'd want a bit of extra help. yes the way the draw reins were being used on locarno wasn't the ideal way but i'm sure there was a good reason for that and i think her followers are more likely to go out and buy red jackets and blonde hair dye rather than ride their horses in a way that is unlikely to benefit them whatsoever. I also noticed her toe turned out and thought oh i do that i must stop but if she's not perfect there's hope for the rest of us
 
Well, I'm pretty new here but by 'extra help' do you mean control??
Nor am I a good rider but I do know that if I needed draw reins to 'control' my horse then I've missed some huge chunks out of my training.

From what I can see, draw reins are often used as a quick fix these days and to force a horse into a shape. I thought draw reins were a seldom used piece of kit not needed for regular use. The thing is that horses ARE stronger than us so why even waste the effort trying to force them physically especially if it has a degree of pain and discomfort??

No doubt I've put my big fat foot in it here!

Here's a couple of pics to show the lengths some have to go to to 'control' their horses!!! We don't want to end up like this do we?? http://www.hauteecole.ru/en/horse_revolution.php?sid=57&id=281

Bye the way this is by no means a reflection on EW or anyone on this Forum... this is just a shocker to show you what some people are prepared to do to 'control' rather than 'train'!!
 
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Well, I'm pretty new here but by 'extra help' do you mean control??
Nor am I a good rider but I do know that if I needed draw reins to 'control' my horse then I've missed some huge chunks out of my training.



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The difference isnt not being able to control the horse but the ability to ride it safely.

I worked on a pro yard - everything was hacked in draw reins (correctly i may add) the times a pair of draw reins has saved mine and other riders skin is unreal.
They are highly primes athletes - who hack maybe twice a week - its exciting and most of the work due to location was road work - Lorry air brakes, children running over to the school fence screaming 'horses', OAPs ringing bicycle bells as they get 4 foot behind you
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(yes really!)
Add to the fact that they are worth more than i care to think off and it had the recipe to be a disaster.
One pull on the draw reins is enough to stop them bolting / spooking/ ariel leaping etc and then, oonce calm they have their heads back to go on their merry way - no accidents caused.

I KNOW that some people will highly disagree with what ive written and i dont care - the horses are happy, not damaged and still out there winning big classes - they have all the usual MOTs (back, teeth etc) and are always fine.

People either like them or they dont - end of, like Marmite really.
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i agree with this, and while i HATE the flipping things if they are used to pull a horse's head in, i have used them in the past to hack out a hysterically over-the-top TB who was getting ridiculous and unsafe while doing walk work. BUT i didn't use them to winch her nose in, they were there to stop her throwing her head up too high and then enthusiastically throwing her body around to follow it!
there is a HUGE difference imho between using them as a guard (looseish, but so that they come into play if the horse tries to invert too much, for example) and using them tighter than the snaffle rein, to pull the horse's head in.
as said up there, i think we've got used to seeing horses with their heads winched in, and stopped thinking about how bad it can be for them. it seems as if anyone going along with their horse's nose in front of the vertical is seen as a crap rider! but young horses in particular go through this phase and learn gradually to balance, to go in rhythm, to go forward to the contact, and then finally to come into an outline... this is the LAST piece of the puzzle to put into place, not the first...
this whole post is not about EW, it is about general use of draw reins, btw.
 
sorry if i'm wrong but i'm assuming you do not now or have not previously ridden top level show jumpers therefore you cannot know that you would not want a bit of extra control to hand if it was needed. Yes draw reins can be used as a short cut but would it be more sensible for these riders to hack out seriously expensive horses without doing all they reasonably can to protect themselves and the horse? or is it better that the horses never leave the confines of an arena? I don't know why ellen was using the draw reins in that way but whatever she's doing works for her, shes a very talented girl and her horses are obviously happy in their work or they wouldn't have helped her win three titles on three horses at hoys. I don't think that unless you've felt the power of horses like that you can understand why the riders need to use things like draw reins. we know they can ride very well without them, we've all seen it. Some people don't like draw reins so don't use them, in the show jumping world they are very widely used already and i very much doubt that seeing ellen using them would make people use them if they didn't want to before. again the way ellen was using them who knows why, maybe we've all been doing it wrong, maybe she'd hurt her hand, maybe someone should take the time to ask her rather than slating her. i don't doubt ellens skills as a rider she has proved herself many times so if she wants to do something different (different not abusive or harmful) leave her alone to get on with it and wait to see the results
 
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Well, I'm pretty new here but by 'extra help' do you mean control??
Nor am I a good rider but I do know that if I needed draw reins to 'control' my horse then I've missed some huge chunks out of my training.



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The difference isnt not being able to control the horse but the ability to ride it safely.

I worked on a pro yard - everything was hacked in draw reins (correctly i may add) the times a pair of draw reins has saved mine and other riders skin is unreal.
They are highly primes athletes - who hack maybe twice a week - its exciting and most of the work due to location was road work - Lorry air brakes, children running over to the school fence screaming 'horses', OAPs ringing bicycle bells as they get 4 foot behind you
smirk.gif
(yes really!)
Add to the fact that they are worth more than i care to think off and it had the recipe to be a disaster.
One pull on the draw reins is enough to stop them bolting / spooking/ ariel leaping etc and then, oonce calm they have their heads back to go on their merry way - no accidents caused.

I KNOW that some people will highly disagree with what ive written and i dont care - the horses are happy, not damaged and still out there winning big classes - they have all the usual MOTs (back, teeth etc) and are always fine.

People either like them or they dont - end of, like Marmite really.
tongue.gif


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Totally agree with that complete lifesavers at times and no one is suggesting that if you have a complete lack of control of your horse draw reins will fix the problem but on a generally well behaved but fit and powerful horse in a possibly exciting or unpredictable situation i think draw reins provide a great added safety feature to the bridle.
 
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