pics of Ellen Whitaker riding at home, in H&H this week...

Lol, no I've never ridden top showjumpers. The most highly charged I've ridden are Point to pointers out hacking as a child!

Safety imo is paramount of course. Having said that perhaps if a horse is so highly charged then something about the way it is managed needs looking at? Just playing devils advocate here and if a horse is highly charged I have to ask is it safe to be out on busy roads??? No doubt I will be seen as someone who doesn't know what they're talking about but I know I'd rather train than force. I just think so many things that we do to horses are just accepted and I suppose I want to shake everyone up and make then see if there are other ways...

Anyway, I'll shut up now because I don't ride super charged horses on busy roads etc. I value my life too much I'm afraid.

Mta!! Oh heck have I become a Troll then?? Yikes!! sorry.
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I use them 90% of the time i ride at home even when hacking(mainly because i can't stop in a snaffle without them but refuse to use a stronger bit on the flat!)


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I'm interested to know why you think riding with draw reins is better than putting a slightly stronger bit in it's mouth?
 
hear hear... add in also that the leverage on the snaffle (because the draw rein goes through the bit ring of the snaffle) makes it stronger than it would be anyway, it makes a strong downwards/backwards pressure.
i'd rather use a stronger bit and have the horse respect it.
 
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I didn't say it was acceptable...it is however de rigeur and getting up arms won't change that. Success is the be all and end all on a professional yard, the horses are part of a business not pets. Sad, maybe, but true.

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Why not? I honestly think there is enough fuss now about rollkur that things will start to change, slowly (or in public at least). So why can't this change?
 
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too much time mucking out stables with my bored little mind whizzing around thinking up stuff, obviously!
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Haha, well if you have time on your hands and are bored then I have a big old hunter who doesn't see why he should have to concentrate on anything bar hunting now the season has started...you're welcome to come and see if you can entertain him enough to stop him rodeoing during SJ rounds and dressage tests if you like?!
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haha, thanks chestnut cob, if you were around the corner i just might, but i've already got two 4 yr olds to ride every day (great fun in the windiest place on earth), 1 of mine to sit on next week who hasn't had a saddle on for 6 months, and possibly one to back soon! not enough danger money in the world....!

i agree with you about the fuss, the whole Blue Tongue thing has shocked a lot of people, perhaps a similar furore might start up about inappropriate use of draw reins... i can only hope.
and NO, i'm not including EW in that sentence, i'm referring to inexperienced people who use the chuffing things to winch their horses' heads in with no leg on, etc etc.
 
LOL, maybe I'll stick with my cranky hunter then! Attempted some SJ today (after he'd ditched, for the 3rd time, the PC girl riding him as instructed by her DC to "improve her riding by sitting on lots of horses") and I think I can say he was the worst advert for that ideal "happy athlete" throughout *rolls eyes* We've got a classical lesson booked tomorrow (with someone I've been trying to get a session with for months) but I suspect he will make sure I'm aware of how disgusted he is about not hunting for the 3rd week in a row and doing flatwork instead
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To go back to your OP, I do agree with you re. inappropriate use of draw reins. However, someone made a point on about page 4 that at least what you see is what you get with EW. She made to attempt to conceal the fact she uses them, unlike probably most other serious competitors who would probably prefer to pretend they don't. But... that brings me back to the question of why she needs them and why they are so "de rigeur" in SJ cirlces in the first place?
 
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I use them 90% of the time i ride at home even when hacking(mainly because i can't stop in a snaffle without them but refuse to use a stronger bit on the flat!)


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I'm interested to know why you think riding with draw reins is better than putting a slightly stronger bit in it's mouth?

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From my experience if you use a stronger bit for every day use the horse builds a resistance to the bit and it becomes less effective meaning you need an even stronger bit. For my horse he is genuinely happy in his snaffle and draw reins and i have tried using a stronger bit instead but that doesn't provide the instant control that draw reins do, the second that head goes up to bolt the draw reins will catch it whereas a stronger bit will have little effect in that situation. my horse is generally well mannered so i don't see why i should annoy him with a big bit that for 98% of the ride he doesn't need. If my horse was in any pain i'd be the first to know, if his bloods not quite right he wont jump a thing, he can be an absolute nightmare so i know that he's content now. Obviously some people abuse draw reins but i don't think you can put them in the same category as rollkur and the whole blue tounge thing

I know that question wasn't to me but i liked it
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good luck with your classical lesson!
yes, i can see the point about EW's honesty in being pictured using them, and i'm sure she uses lots of leg with them (unlike many), i just really wish that, since she is the idol of literally thousands of kids, they'd picked pictures that showed them being used correctly.
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Thanks, I think I will need it. I do go to someone locally for classical lessons fairly regularly anyway but the instructor tomorrow is serious stuff. I think I will spend 6 months working in walk with her and am fully expecting to have my riding ripped to shreds tomorrow!!
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The point you raise about the choice of picture used is a little bit different to the question of "should she be using them" I think but I wonder whether it's H&H's job to police things like that? I guess that questions takes you into the territory of wondering whether if they censor that, do they (like I hear the BD forum does), stop discussions about rollkur because it paints dressage in a bad like, as potentially picturing EW riding in draw reins could for SJ. I know I'm exaggerating the point now and being a bit dramatic about it, but I hope you get my point (my point that I'm not putting across very well!
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). I agree though to a point but where does it stop then? Do they refuse to print pics of top riders hacking if they're not in full hi viz because of the example it will set? There are, IMHO, far worse examples in the horsey world...KP for one?
 
well, i never said "should she be using them", she's obviously a LOT better than me, she gets a great tune out of some seriously tricky horses, so I won't try to criticise her for using them, just for being pictured using them incorrectly!
the H&H police are very active on here, i think they have a responsibility to be active in certain areas in the magazine, particularly with pics of riders who are known to be idols...
 
I do at present own two Grade A showjumpers, and have ridden quite a few in my long distance past. Trained with some very good people in my time, and cannot understand this current trend of drawreins, being used incorrectly. It was only a few years ago that Dutch gags became popular and fly veils on ears, at the lowest levels of jumping, brought about by top riders starting to use them. People do copy and always will. Kids are the worse of all, they copy others hence the peer pressure selling from major companies.

Out of my horses, the first guy is hyper, he rears, bucks, shys spooks when competing but due to being totally honest and hours of correct schooling he is only ever ridden in a snaffle, safely and happily. He is fit, happy and is now 17 and has been competing since a 5 year old, with (touch wood quickly) never one days lameness in his life.

My second is the most stunning honest horse (by Animo) you would ever meet, that has totally had his confidence destroyed because of draw reins. He panics into trying to please you, he is not strong, never ever naughty but cannot get his head around that I do not need to be pulling and holding onto his head for him to have confidence. Due to this he makes himself dangerous as he rears in panic, shoots away from you patting his neck. He has forgotton how to correctly use his neck and back to balance himself over a jump.

He has had huge problems, with his back neck and poll and is now turning the corner slowly and will hopefully be back competing where he should be, but this time because he wants to and is enjoying it. He is only 8. This is my whole point about horses competing at high levels into their late teens.

As the saying says"Act in haste, repent at lesuire."
 
If only all horses/ riders/ trainers/tack/management routines had to receive the HHO Competition Riders stamp of approval before allowed to even attempt to begin training... The world would surely be a better place. I am really getting sick of the dismissive attitude that goes with this place. Unless you are approved by the HHO eventer crowd (or Mary King), you can't win with this lot - let alone get replies to your posts ;-)
 
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some horses work better in them, afterall there not dressage horses. personally i couldn't care less.

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I know a lot of dressage horses that are always worked in draw reins!
 
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Perhaps Ellen is one of the few honest high profile riders around. Rather than change for the camera she just does what she does. Very different to another top showjumper in who's DVD's you NEVER see a drawrein. The warm up for comps is a very different matter.

Personally I would much prefer all top riders to show it like it is rather than change for the camera.

At least with Ellen what you see is what you get, no hidden stuff.

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Sorry guys but in the "real world" stuff happens, including most showjumpers riding most horses most of the time in draw reins.
As do a lot of other riders ie dressage,polo,trainers and yes - some event riders!draw reins are also used by some as a way of anchoring a strong horse.
 
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well, i never said "should she be using them", she's obviously a LOT better than me, she gets a great tune out of some seriously tricky horses, so I won't try to criticise her for using them, just for being pictured using them incorrectly!

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Sorry my bad
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Sorry guys but in the "real world" stuff happens, including most showjumpers riding most horses most of the time in draw reins.
As do a lot of other riders ie dressage,polo,trainers and yes - some event riders!draw reins are also used by some as a way of anchoring a strong horse.

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Sorry not true, I trained with Tim Stockdale for some time, and believe you me he used draw reins when required, but screamed to see them used incorrectly. I truly believe eventers are the one exception to the rule of sticking horses in draw reins, I know very few that ever use them. You need a horse to carry itself, think for itself training with gadgets makes a horse lose its natural self preservation instinct and rely on its rider to much, and as we are human we cock up more often that not, so trust your horse to get you out of the mess.

Just because stuff happens does not make it right.
 
I bought Cud and Dug for the first time in ages following this post and am struggling to see the big deal. Having worked on an international SJ yard myself before they wanted for nothing (other than a bit more turnout but that's just me!!). Yes, many use draw reins a lot. Last time I went to a premier show I saw heaps using them warming up. One Horse I used to ride when I worked for said SJ I would have refused to get on without draw reins but that's another story.

That said, I totally agree with Kerilli in that the main contact ought to be on the main rein, not the draw rein, and that goes for anyone. However, in the H&H pics neither Horse has its head winched to its chest as some people have said. There's also a previous comment about how the Horse's faces say it all?? Say what exactly?? They look perfectly happy to me. Both have their ears pricked and look full of bounce. Ellen allbeit tall is pretty slight and is sat on big Horses. Even with draw reins she'd have to pull bloomin hard to cause any major concern to the Horse. She isn't wearing gloves in either pictures, and her fingers are pretty loose. She also has plenty bend in her arms and no tension in her shoulders. She's clearly an amazing rider and I feel daft even commenting!! Perhaps H&H should ask her what benefit she finds from using them in that way? It would be interesting to know.

Pity this potentially interesting debate has turned into a slanging match against one of our most talented SJ riders. I agree she can be a bit stroppy (and have said so before) but she's doing no more than many SJ's in these pics....which is why it would have been a good debate, without the EW factor thrown in!
 
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If only all horses/ riders/ trainers/tack/management routines had to receive the HHO Competition Riders stamp of approval before allowed to even attempt to begin training... The world would surely be a better place. I am really getting sick of the dismissive attitude that goes with this place. Unless you are approved by the HHO eventer crowd (or Mary King), you can't win with this lot - let alone get replies to your posts ;-)

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I can't imagine where you'd get that impression little_flea..
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LOL I thought I might find a thread about this on here! Yes, first thing I noticed was the draw reins and the first thing I thought was *uh oh, Ellen is going to get it from HHO*! Draw reins have their place, but no, I don't like to see them being used as the primary connection to the horse's mouth.

So yes, I thought *bleurgh* but I am in no position to comment, having ridden many Grade A horses with draw reins I understand the whys.

I am actually rather amused that all of the posters who have said *goodness she is going to corrupt a generation of young riders* are more concerned about the draw reins than her hat - it is one thing that drives me to distraction with Ellen - PLEASE either do it up securely or don't bother putting one on at all as if you do fall it is likely to tip off over the back of your head and the chin strap will throttle you (I know, it has happened to me!).

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To be different I actually agree draw rein should be tighter

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I'm not sure who you're agreeing with, but it certainly isn't me! You are entitled to be different if you want (others might call it being a troll), but please don't put words into my mouth.
 
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I'm not sure who you're agreeing with, but it certainly isn't me! You are entitled to be different if you want (others might call it being a troll), but please don't put words into my mouth.

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Thinking they may have been using Quick Reply here, not aiming anything at you?
 
I don't get this thing about needing to use draw reins to ride fresh/fit horses. Work riders at a racing yard don't use draw reins, despite sometimes having to hack a distance to the gallops. And we aren't exactly riding plods..
 
Well, i've read a lot of this thread but not all of it...i think most of the points were covered in what i did see though...

To respond to the OP's original point....Yes, draw reins should be used such that the snaffle rein is the one that maintains the contact with the draw rein only coming into play if the horse lifts its' head too much. That said, this picture is a snapshot or a moment in time....who's to say the horse didn't just raise its' head at the moment the photo was taken....and does anyone really believe this horse (Occolado) looks distressed...please
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To all the other people quoting "correct training" and "shortcuts"....i would agree.....if we were judging a dressage competition or even a dressage horse and rider....but we're not. Showjumping is about jumping a course of fences without having a fence down or refusing an obstacle...there are no points awarded for style, technique or training methods....or even appearance for that matter.

Ellen is a highly successful rider. In my opinion (and i will never see the success that she already has, let alone what lies ahead) she is not the greatest 'natural' rider on the circuit. Certainly she isn't a Ludger Beerbaum or even a Ben Maher in the way she rides...but she does get results and she does cope with an awful lot of other cr@p on top of being a successful rider...just because of her name, the colour of her hair and the fact that she IS very successful.

Come on people...see it for what it is...a magazine article about someone who did an amazing thing at HOYS...won three major titles...and she's British !
 
(First let me say- sorry if i repeat anything that's been said, it's 11 pages long and it's getting late
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Well, TBH in my (very very
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) inexpert opinion, I don't see the harm in her riding in draw reins. I am not a general fan of her due to her quick temper with her horses, but appreciate she is a talented rider. I think if she did not have such a quick temper which she has often been criticised for, then the draw reins thing would not be such a big deal.
And as for using draw reins on fit/fresh horses- this summer I did a bit of riding for a professional eventer (in exchange for having one of her horses on loan) and one of her horses, a 2* horse, I had to hack out in draw reins, simply because he had a hard mouth, a bit of an attitude, and once he got going and took hold i couldn't stop him without. (being 5'3 and easily ignored sucks
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) However they were there 'just in case' of brakes failure, loose 95% of the time, not as an aid to keep his head down all the time. As said before, hacking should be relaxing for both horse and rider.
 
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