Pin firing .... no negative comments please

scats said:
Am I right in thinking that it was banned in the UK at some point, albeit briefly?
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Never banned outright, but the BEVA published a statement that it was unethical and that if a vet was prosecuted for doing it they could not expect any support from them in their defence. They appear to have stepped back a little from that point of view :(
 
Magnetic Sparrow said:
I have no expertise in this area, but am interested. There seems to be a school of thought that says by effectively laming the horse by firing or blistering it forces the animal to rest properly while it is acclimatising to the extended turnout. I've certainly had my blood run cold watching an injured horse hooning around when it should have been pottering gently.
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I think it forces the owner to rest the horse because they can see the burns. The theory is that the injury will destroy scar tissue from the previous injury and remove it in the serum which flows from a burn injury.

The only problem is that there is no evidence in the clinical trials which have been done that it actually works.
 
As others have said, firing has been shown to have no effect, therefore her recovery from injury will only be determined by time and the rest/rehab you do with her from this point forward. As a vet, I am astounded and horrified that there are still vets out there that do this.

This is the RCVS statement:
"We have consistently declared that firing is unethical. Since the enactment of the Animal Welfare Act 2006, and Animal Health and Welfare (Scotland) Act 2006, it is a criminal offence to carry out a procedure which involves interference with the sensitive tissues or bone structure of an animal (prohibited procedure), other than for the purpose of medical treatment of an animal. While we respect the veterinary surgeon’s freedom to select a treatment of their choosing, there is no readily foreseeable justification for the use of firing. We are unaware of any scientific evidence that suggests the use of firing is therapeutic, so remain of the view that firing cannot be legitimately undertaken by a veterinary surgeon for the purpose of medical treatment. In addition to any potential criminal liability, the professional conduct of a veterinary surgeon subjecting a horse to firing in England, Scotland or Wales could be called into question.

While a veterinary surgeon who carries out a prohibited procedure in Northern Ireland may not necessarily commit an offence under the Welfare of Animals Act (Northern Ireland) 2011, their actions could also be the subject of a professional conduct investigation by the RCVS."

So basically, it's not officially illegal and they can't stop a vet doing it but that vet is going to be on their own if any kind of repercussions. Firing is probably one of the few procedures where the RCVS and veterinary bodies will hang a vet out to dry, and rightly so.
 
Has there ever been any repercussions of the sort that would require a vet to prefer RCVS assistance? My guess is no which is why quite a few still do it.
 
ester said:
Has there ever been any repercussions of the sort that would require a vet to prefer RCVS assistance? My guess is no which is why quite a few still do it.
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There's never been a prosecution, afaik. It's lily livered by the RCVS, how do they expect a prosecution to be taken if they won't ban it?
 
Magnetic Sparrow said:
I have no expertise in this area, but am interested. There seems to be a school of thought that says by effectively laming the horse by firing or blistering it forces the animal to rest properly while it is acclimatising to the extended turnout. I've certainly had my blood run cold watching an injured horse hooning around when it should have been pottering gently.
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The horse should not be turned out until the firing has settled, it is not painful by then and the horse should be "sound" from the original injury but not fully ready to return to work, a tendon requires around 12 months to fully heal, the idea is that while the burn marks are obvious the owner will be more happy to leave the horse out nothing to do with stopping it running about, the one that came here was on rest for well over 8 weeks after being fired before he went out and it certainly did not stop him running around.

I am not a believer in firing and am extremely surprised that the OP's vet used this "treatment" as I thought there were very few vets that did it, the one who does most of the racehorses is very old school, semi retired and probably less worried about his reputation than most vets will be.
I still cannot understand why a horse that was almost non weight bearing could appear sound afterwards, the hot pins do not go into the tendon or ligament they go into the skin and should tighten the area but that alone should not make a horse sound, most will be well past the acute stage of injury before firing takes place, I didn't think it would be an option for one still extremely lame and fairly shocked that any vet has done this rather than use the more modern treatments treatments available.

When the ban first came in horses were sent to Ireland to be fired, the RCVS had a turn about based on that so to see it is now illegal over there is a step in the right direction maybe now we can ban it properly and know that that door is closed.
 
hopscotch bandit said:
http://www.thehorse.com/articles/12383/pin-firing

A very useful article on the subject which echoes what the OP has said her vet has said.
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That is an American article that was written in 2000. How is it useful? As many posters above have explained, it has been shown to have no effect and is illlegal in many countries for ethical reasons. It is barbaric in my opinion. Chances are, any horse that has been sucessfully rehabed in the past (I had no idea it was still done in this day and age!), will have recovered due to an extended rest period rather than the firing itself.

Why anyone would a) agree to have this done in the first place, and b) think it is a good idea to breed from a horse that has broken down so badly due to conformation - as confirmed by their vet, is beyond my comprehension. I also don't understand why someone would post on such a subject and ask for no negative comments. The mind boggles.
 
AandK said:
That is an American article that was written in 2000. How is it useful?

Why anyone would a) agree to have this done in the first place, and b) think it is a good idea to breed from a horse that has broken down so badly due to conformation - as confirmed by their vet, is beyond my comprehension.

I also don't understand why someone would post on such a subject and ask for no negative comments.
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In answer to your first question the article is interesting in so much as it is informative and I felt that there were people that might have found it interesting to read.I certainly found it interesting yes its old but it gives as much information as is required to cover the subject being discussed.

In answer to your second comment I don't personally agree with the procedure and don't think the OP should breed from such a mare there are enough unwanted animals in this country without breeding more those of which will never lead decent lives due to their conformational problems.

I do understand why the OP has come on here and the reason she asks for no negative comments is probably due to the way the forum has been declining in recent months in terms of the intimidation and persecution of certain groups of people on this forum.

Its up to her what she decides to do with her own horse, rightly or wrongly. When its backed by the vet there is little that can be gained from putting down someone or making them feel small when they come on this site. I believe that the poster specifically asked in her original post if anyone has any info on what to expect after the healing and whether her horse could be affiliated after having such a procedure. I don't know the answer to this as I am more of a dressagey person myself.
 
hopscotch bandit said:
I do understand why the OP has come on here and the reason she asks for no negative comments is probably due to the way the forum has been declining in recent months in terms of the intimidation and persecution of certain groups of people on this forum.
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Cruelty to animals and utter stupidity was never well tolerated and nor should it be.
 
hopscotch bandit said:
In answer to your first question the article is interesting in so much as it is informative and I felt that there were people that might have found it interesting to read.I certainly found it interesting yes its old but it gives as much information as is required to cover the subject being discussed.
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By your reckoning we should look more closely at the virtues of lobotomies and blood letting.
 
hopscotch bandit said:
In answer to your first question the article is interesting in so much as it is informative and I felt that there were people that might have found it interesting to read.I certainly found it interesting yes its old but it gives as much information as is required to cover the subject being discussed.

In answer to your second comment I don't personally agree with the procedure and don't think the OP should breed from such a mare there are enough unwanted animals in this country without breeding more those of which will never lead decent lives due to their conformational problems.

I do understand why the OP has come on here and the reason she asks for no negative comments is probably due to the way the forum has been declining in recent months in terms of the intimidation and persecution of certain groups of people on this forum.

Its up to her what she decides to do with her own horse, rightly or wrongly. When its backed by the vet there is little that can be gained from putting down someone or making them feel small when they come on this site. I believe that the poster specifically asked in her original post if anyone has any info on what to expect after the healing and whether her horse could be affiliated after having such a procedure. I don't know the answer to this as I am more of a dressagey person myself.
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The problem with that article, and why I asked how it is useful, is that it speaks in agreement of pin firing as a treatment and so is very out of date in that respect, or certainly as far as things go in the UK/Ireland/Europe. But then I expect the vast majority of articles written on the subject are on the dated side as it is seen as an antiquated and unethical treatment these days.

I have been on this forum for many years, and aside from the odd ongoing spat between specific posters, I do not see the "intimidation and persecution of certain groups of people" that you mention. Unless you are referring to people who seem to post on subjects such as this, e.g. involving welfare issues, in which case they often deserve the comments they get. I suspect most do it deliberately, and it's usually easy to spot these posts as the OP will start getting too defensive and claiming they are being bullied and such like. In cases such as the OP (if the issue is indeed real) the poster would be better off speaking to their vet (a phone call costs nothing) at the very least, instead of posting on a forum.
 
Casey76 said:
This is interesting, with a very emotive pic which should horrify everyone into never having their horse bar fired

https://www.facebook.com/DrDavidMar...3421046862124/574135759457316/?type=3&theater
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I had an ex racer in the 80's that had been line fired he had the scars on his legs just like the ones on that picture although they looked quite old, he was 11 when I got him he was a very well behaved horse so safe to ride but he was very worried about having his front legs touched and would not allow a brush on them, I always ran my hand down the front of his legs when picking his feet out never the back, he wouldn't have the hose on them either nd was always cold shod when I had him, I didn't even think it was something that was done now I actually thought it was illegal in this country.
 
I've read some interesting comments and some plain rude and abusive comments ...

People seem to be very much up their own backsides on this forum and expected better advice ... now my horse will have a home for life and she was PIN FIRED NOT BAR FIRED totally different processes now she hasn't a conformation defect it's simple caused by overextending, over-flexing or over-rotating and it's not a tendon ...

I actually pitty this narrow mindedness it's the sort of response I expect from trolls on Facebook.. apart from a few which I'm glad of their advice the rest of you should keep your opinion to yourself and I've realised the people who make these negative comments are the type who think just because someone has a Irish accent they are a gypsie
 
Maybe instead of calling it barbaric actually keep your comments to yourself because it's not banned and I'm asking for information from people who have had this procedure done...

My horse hasn't malfunctioning legs or bad conformation it was actually done while out in the field on her Christmas holiday . The vet has already said her legs are fine to take weight of foal but without this it would have been pts and I don't care who frowns on it I will do what ever it takes to keep my horse alive even if she is living on the front garden for the rest of her life and a big bed of shavings every night because I'm not a person who gets rid of a horse or sells it on because it doesn't do a job anymore ..

Yes there is plenty of horses in the world who are not wanted but my horse and her foal will always be at my home and yes I'm lucky enough to have the land to make these dessions

So please unless you've something interesting and constructive to say don't say nothing
 
Well sorry, but if you are going to inflict a barbaric procedure on your beloved horse, you should expect some people to have differing opinions.

Personally I think you should be prosecuted for abuse (as should the person who carried out the procedure).
 
SLICONNEMARA said:
Maybe instead of calling it barbaric actually keep your comments to yourself because it's not banned and I'm asking for information from people who have had this procedure done...

My horse hasn't malfunctioning legs or bad conformation it was actually done while out in the field on her Christmas holiday . The vet has already said her legs are fine to take weight of foal but without this it would have been pts and I don't care who frowns on it I will do what ever it takes to keep my horse alive even if she is living on the front garden for the rest of her life and a big bed of shavings every night because I'm not a person who gets rid of a horse or sells it on because it doesn't do a job anymore ..

Yes there is plenty of horses in the world who are not wanted but my horse and her foal will always be at my home and yes I'm lucky enough to have the land to make these dessions

So please unless you've something interesting and constructive to say don't say nothing
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This is a forum, with a large cross section of people who use it. If you post a thread, then you will invariably get people who agree with you, and people who don't. If you don't like the fact people have a differing opinon than you on this, then I suggest you look elsewhere for advice, or you could just ignore the posts that bother you.

You said yourself you could not find much on the internet about it, and there is good reason for that. You will be hard pushed to find people on a forum like this that have horses who have had this procedure done recently (I am sure there are many that have older ex racers or hunters that were fired maqny years ago) so perhaps you would be better speaking to your vet about rehab. As with any ligament injury, rest is key. If your vet thinks your horses legs will stand to carry a foal then she is your horse, crack on, but your post earlier stated your vet said the injury was due to her having 'long, thin legs' hence why people are questioning you breeding from her.

Firing aside, if this were my horse, after the initial box rest I would turn her away in a big field 24/7 for at least a year, and then think about bringing back into work or putting into foal. I see no reason why she wouldn't be able to live out, or do affiliated competitions, but only lots of time and a gradual return to work will tell if she will stay sound in the long term.
 
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SLICONNEMARA said:
I've read some interesting comments and some plain rude and abusive comments ...

People seem to be very much up their own backsides on this forum and expected better advice ... now my horse will have a home for life and she was PIN FIRED NOT BAR FIRED totally different processes now she hasn't a conformation defect it's simple caused by overextending, over-flexing or over-rotating and it's not a tendon ...

I actually pitty this narrow mindedness it's the sort of response I expect from trolls on Facebook.. apart from a few which I'm glad of their advice the rest of you should keep your opinion to yourself and I've realised the people who make these negative comments are the type who think just because someone has a Irish accent they are a gypsie
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Whilst we're busy generalising, this is exactly the kind of comment that comes when a poster doesn't get the kind of replies they were seeking - positive, agreeing, supportive of the OP kind of posts. Good old HHO for yet again being vocal about the welfare of the animal over the ego of the poster.
 
SLICONNEMARA said:
I don't care who frowns on it I will do what ever it takes to keep my horse alive even if she is living on the front garden for the rest of her life and a big bed of shavings every night because I'm not a person who gets rid of a horse or sells it on because it doesn't do a job anymore
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So at what point do you take the welfare of the animal into consideration in all this? You would keep her alive at whatever cost irregardless of her welfare?
 
SLICONNEMARA said:
Not malfunctioning when it's again caused by overextending, over-flexing or over-rotating. Not from structure
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Er sorry but why do her legs over extend, over flex or over rotate if they aren't malfunctioning / poorly conformed ie the structure is faulty.

I suppose at the end of the day there are none so blind as those who do not want to see. Good luck to your horse, she's going to need it.
 
SLICONNEMARA said:
I've read some interesting comments and some plain rude and abusive comments ...

People seem to be very much up their own backsides on this forum and expected better advice ... now my horse will have a home for life and she was PIN FIRED NOT BAR FIRED totally different processes now she hasn't a conformation defect it's simple caused by overextending, over-flexing or over-rotating and it's not a tendon ...

I actually pitty this narrow mindedness it's the sort of response I expect from trolls on Facebook.. apart from a few which I'm glad of their advice the rest of you should keep your opinion to yourself and I've realised the people who make these negative comments are the type who think just because someone has a Irish accent they are a gypsie
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err can you explain how pin and bar firing are totally different processes please? In particular with regard to 1) the physics, and 2) the outcomes? (the references mentioned in the summary by David, posted by casey include both).
Why you were the one to say that your horse has
But if she never had this procedure she wouldn't really live a normal life as she has long thin legs and even the vet said it's the main cause of this injury .
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Yet now you think they aren't a structural issue so she is fine to breed from.
The fact that she injured herself in the field not even performing hard makes this worse too btw.

Has your vet really not discussed rehab and outcomes with you?
 
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