Pinch boots, rapping and other forms of SJ torture

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FfionWinnie

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I'm not a real show jumper. However I've trained quite a few unlikely horses to jump now with the help of a really good sj coach. Most were cobs, perhaps not known for their supreme athleticism but they all have one thing in common. They are careful. They hardly ever touch a pole and if they do you can guarantee it was my riding that caused it. None of them have worn any sort of torture device to achieve this, it's just proper training done by someone who only half knows what they are doing.

So with that in mind, I have to ask why anyone, particularly people who are proper show jumpers with horses bred to jump so should be supremely athletic and able, still use outdated torture devices to achieve the elusive clear round and why it is even allowed.

I'm no bunny hugger but it makes me very sad that my new horse who IS a show jumper is noticeably more anxious showjumping than doing anything else despite the fact he had never done "anything else" until he came to me.
 
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Is rapping really still widely used? I've never seen it used or heard anyone admit to it.

Pinch boots are such a bizarre, crude and uncivilised concept, do they actually work?

From what I see one of the worst practices in SJ is over working young horses. I see so many nice 3 and 4 year olds for sale that are already jumping courses which suggest they've done much more work than a horse that age should be doing. Funnily enough I see far less nice, sound, 10 year olds; I suspect these over-produced youngsters don't last long.
 
So much more fun to get all hot under the collar about what others do ,so much less hard work than setting about improving yourself .
 
junglefairy said:
Is rapping really still widely used? I've never seen it used or heard anyone admit to it.

Pinch boots are such a bizarre, crude and uncivilised concept, do they actually work?

From what I see one of the worst practices in SJ is over working young horses. I see so many nice 3 and 4 year olds for sale that are already jumping courses which suggest they've done much more work than a horse that age should be doing. Funnily enough I see far less nice, sound, 10 year olds; I suspect these over-produced youngsters don't last long.
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I think this is down to the idiots who buy them. When starting my young horse I didn't even consider jumping until he was five and even then it was just an odd pop. People are just so impatient these days. They want them young, jumping and working in an " outline" long before they are ready! Then bleat when they break !! If people didn't buy over produced horses the market would bottom out.
 
Cortez said:
Well, that's human beings for you.....totally selfish, stop-at-nothing, competitive, nastly domineering little primates that we are!
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Totally agree!!!

Pinch boots are a new one on me (so I've had a quick google) but then I never was a jumper, bit jeeeez why on earth would you use those??!

I'll stick with my non booted horse!
 
Rapping is still well used, so I hear. Also rumours abound that there are always people developing sensitivity chemicals who are one step ahead of the testers.
The trouble is to jump at absolutely top level you need a top level horse, which probably make up 0.5% of the SJ population. The rest are decent horses but need a bit of motivation to extend themselvews to the point of never touching anything.
FW, I doubt whether or not your horses touch a pole will cost you thousands of pounds, the top competitors it will. I am not condoning the cruelty but it will never stop.
Look t dressage horses, for every capable one like Valegro there is some poor little thing being stabbed and hauled into the same shape.
 
Goldenstar said:
So much more fun to get all hot under the collar about what others do ,so much less hard work than setting about improving yourself .
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Ouch! :blue: I think it's possible to do both at the same time, and IMO no one can accuse FW of not setting about to improve!!

Clodagh said:
The trouble is to jump at absolutely top level you need a top level horse, which probably make up 0.5% of the SJ population. The rest are decent horses but need a bit of motivation to extend themselvews to the point of never touching anything.
FW, I doubt whether or not your horses touch a pole will cost you thousands of pounds, the top competitors it will. I am not condoning the cruelty but it will never stop..
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^^ this, I think. Rules tighten up around things, and then someone dreams up the next gadget. I don't think I'd have it in me to push a horse to the limit using these techniques, but then that probably explains why I'll never be a top rider.
There are probably such things that are... less unacceptable... in skilled hands, but the popularity and availability means that they are tempting for less experienced but ambitious hands. This holds true throughout the horsey world - think of the naive teenager who sees someone using draw reins and decides to have a go to get their horse 'on the bit'.

** HHO disclaimer, not having a bash at teenagers or draw reins, lol, just one example**
 
Pinkvboots said:
What are pinch boots I have never heard of them?
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They are a fetlock boot where the hind strap is positioned so that when tightened their is a propriception response - it is believed to improve hind limb technique in some horses. FEI legal (although it wouldn't surprise me if it wasn't in future). Like everything, they are open to abuse.
 
Damnation said:
From what I gather they pinch the back of the leg when the horse takes off. Presumibly to make the horse reflexively pick their legs up.
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Just a thought but in the end won't that make the horse reluctant to jump? Now I'm not a jumper and I would never use stuff like that anyhow but.......if there is pain when the horse takes off , won't that in the end cause the horse just not to take off?
 
Torture is an emotive word .
Im afraid most techniques are legitimate if used in careful hands and they will always carry on. Its when they are used by the inexperienced they become a problem. The one exception being hyper sensitising of the lower limbs there is no excuse!
 
milliepops said:
Ouch! :blue: I think it's possible to do both at the same time, and IMO no one can accuse FW of not setting about to improve!!



^^ this, I think. Rules tighten up around things, and then someone dreams up the next gadget. I don't think I'd have it in me to push a horse to the limit using these techniques, but then that probably explains why I'll never be a top rider.
There are probably such things that are... less unacceptable... in skilled hands, but the popularity and availability means that they are tempting for less experienced but ambitious hands. This holds true throughout the horsey world - think of the naive teenager who sees someone using draw reins and decides to have a go to get their horse 'on the bit'.

** HHO disclaimer, not having a bash at teenagers or draw reins, lol, just one example**
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Yes, exactly. Having worked in top level dressage for a while (not in this country), I saw enough going on to convince me I didn't have the requisite killer drive to make it at top level.

Hey, I like horses; nothing could induce me to do stuff that I didn't feel was fair to horses just to win at competitions.
 
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Every discipline and every level has things that others find unacceptable. I think that is just humans. I have no direct comparison but I would not be surprised if the same types of things (i.e. things others don't like) also goes on in dog or cat showing. Or anything else. Some of the practices at Ballet school are astounding - and that's humans on humans!

All we can do - as Goldenstar suggests - is look to the plank in our own eye. I don't mean to be sanctimonious - but I'm sure every one of us has one or two practices with our own horses that others on here think are wrong. Lunge with a pessoa? Ever thought about Parelli? Bit? Don't bit? Shoe? Don't shoe?

Good emotive topic for a holiday though!
 
I'm afraid pinch boots are torture because as far as I understand it the horse has no way to escape the action of the boots regardless of how well it jumps the fence.

The action which is discomfort to pain depending on who is using these devices and how much they know about what they are doing and how to achieve it, is negative.

The horse cannot escape the pain even if it does snap its legs up as they are designed to make it do. It's not a well timed punishment for doing it wrong it's a punishment regardless of how well they do it - that is the bit I really dislike.

So it's not training at all really, only cheating.

As for me needing to remove the stick from my eye I'm not sure what my ability has to do with other people deliberately causing discomfort to a horse. I am always looking at what I am doing and if I can do it better, with better technology etc for the comfort of the horse. There is I believe no bigger critic of myself than I!

The reason I posted about it was I saw someone was wondering why pinch boots would be rubbing the horse raw after a *prolonged* period of wearing them.

Horses are lovely animals who carry us on their backs very good naturedly. Causing them deliberate discomfort is not in my opinion acceptable at any level.
 
See I jumped my horse as a 5yo over a 1.30m puissance wall, didn't plan on it, but he found it so easy, I had never schooled over it!

He's a horse that hates knocking things and can panic a bit, despite the fact that he's never been hit for it ever. Having a horse that is so naturally neat and careful, and is far from bred for it (unknown luso x tb) makes me wonder why people would go to such lengths I'll agree. Then I wonder why eventers bother with horses that hate water etc.

I admit I used pinch boots when I worked for a showjumper as I was told to. They were put on at the last minute and removed asap. She was imho a nice showjumper, and only used them on one horse and as much as I saw from the other competitors, she was the very very thin end of the wedge.
 
Cortez said:
Having worked in top level dressage for a while (not in this country), I saw enough going on to convince me I didn't have the requisite killer drive to make it at top level.
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Unfortunately top level equestrian sport is a cruel place to be I find. :( It's sickening what some do to their horses to get there. Such a shame :(
I trained with an olympic sjer for a little while...well he had all the gadgets...rapping, lead poles, electric spurs and lord help the horse if he didnt get it juuuuust right :( :( Also knew a racehorse that had his backside set on fire with petrol..you know, to encourage him to jump out of the start gates....
 
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I am very glad that although I have been around some pretty high level jumpers I have never seen any of those practices. When you're based on a yard with liveries, some of whom are pretty knowledgeable horse people in their own right (and I don't include myself in that) shady practices like that would become common knowledge very quickly.

No excuse for deliberate cruelty in the name of ambition, but there are probably more horses who suffer as bad or worse in the hands of well intentioned, even loving, but inexperienced leisure riders. For example are pinch boots worse than being jabbed in the mouth over every jump by a novice, or in the sides by someone riding in spurs before they have proper control of their lower leg? Have seen plenty of both of those, for sure.
 
Clodagh said:
Rapping is still well used, so I hear.
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This is true in some respects. I could certainly name a big name British show jumper that might shock some people. But I also hope people don't assume every professional show jumper uses these methods. I worked as an SJ groom for several years, for a number of different riders, and none of those riders would have dreamed of using any of these methods. That said, working in the industry you do hear some shocking stories that you don't want to believe but kind of have to because of who you've heard them from! I've also heard things like horses being tied up all night so they can't get at their water because they've jumped a bad round, or having a leg tied up on the lorry for the same reason. Utterly bizarre to me, but then maybe I was just lucky with the riders I worked for. I mean, we turned out horses out...regularly, so perhaps we weren't normal!
 
Micropony said:
No excuse for deliberate cruelty in the name of ambition, but there are probably more horses who suffer as bad or worse in the hands of well intentioned, even loving, but inexperienced leisure riders. For example are pinch boots worse than being jabbed in the mouth over every jump by a novice, or in the sides by someone riding in spurs before they have proper control of their lower leg? Have seen plenty of both of those, for sure.
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I agree, although there's no excuse for deliberate cruelty. I also noticed, when watching Olympia last week, that's there's some pretty shoddy riding at the top level (legs unstable, hands not independent, jabbing in the side with spurs, hauling on mouths). Maybe I'm just getting older, but I think the quality of riding in SJ seems to be deteriorating.
 
Sadly, I've heard from very reliable sources about some fairly awful practices in both sj and dressage yards. I think when people are earning their living from competing and producing horses they feel some methods are a means to an end and therefore are justified. One trainer I knew constantly used false groundlines to trick horses so they would hit the fence to sharpen them up before shows - if the horses were too smart for this other more unpleasant methods were employed.
 
Elleskywalkingintheair said:
I've seen a 'well respected' FBHS rapping a horse :mad3:
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its so bloomin disgusting grrrrr ive been unable to teach for the past 2 months due to a broken leg, spoke to one of my clients the other week about how their horse was going....she said shes been having lessons with a 'bhs instructor' and its been going really well...apparently if you pull the reins side to side in halt and walk-the horse mainly stays in an 'outline'...safe to say I'm not going back to fix a horse twice. Grrrrr :( Really puts a bee in my bonnet as I teach the complete opposite. My horses won't even be 'top' horses and ill never be up there either...mainly because I dont have someone to buy me million pound horses and because welfare is so important to me. I know one of the UK top dressage rider has their horses steroid injected before theyre even being ridden properly (eg 3yr olds) so on earth is that going to make a horse last :(
 
Well I've had lots of thoughts on reading this. I know people can't name the baddies, although I'd love to know. But maybe they could name people who didn't do this sort of thing? Also I thought one post was a bit hard on OP. My main experience of people trying to get to the top has been tennis. The mental torture some people were prepared to inflict on their children to that end was insane (literally). And it didn't work (not that that would have justified it).
 
HashRouge said:
I've also heard things like horses being tied up all night so they can't get at their water because they've jumped a bad round, or having a leg tied up on the lorry for the same reason.
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See, this I really don't understand (not that I do any other). This is just pure, mindless anger. The horse lives in there here and now, you cannot punish them for things that they had done hours ago. They would never understand why they were being 'punished' so why do it, it won't better any future performance? Just cruel.

I am not sure what false groundlines is, or rapping (hitting back legs as they jump?) but I don't understand any of it. My enjoyment in horses comes number 1 from the partnership, second to being the best in anything.
 
ASBMO I completely agree. It can't help them achieve their goals. Not that it would be ok if it could, but completely pointless cruelty. I also agree that enjoyment of horses comes from the partnership. I think rapping (from reading my pony books, particularly a Pony for Sale by DPT - I think - I haven't checked this so could be wrong) is having two people, one at each side, suddenly raising the pole, so the poor horse, who thinks it has judged the pole right, hurts its legs on it and therefore jumps higher to make sure.
 
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