Pippin update with BARF question.

Llewellyn

Llewellyn

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Pip went to the first doggy training session 1-2-1. She was an angel but didn't want toy or cheese or sausage no....she will only work for cuddles!:D And on a twenty metre line you can see her track things including herself,:confused: was good to see. And walking on the lead is going to make me look mad, keep stopping but nothing new. We have picked up fleas yesterday from a friend we met in the woods but frontline on its way!:) She is devouring the beef hock bone all over the living room floor. Met a whole mens rugby team the other day and no pee and came and watched me at training on Wednesday and was fine so hopefully slowly conquering it.

Been on BARF 3 days but farting lots and runny/soft poo, :eek: what have I got wrong about the balance is it more bone she needs? Only had the beef one thats taking her ages to get through :(
 
Hiya, I couldn't resist answering this question, I am a vet nurse, and beef bones and the like, are not very good for dogs, I have a hypoallergenic boxer dog, and anything like that triggers the reaction your dog is currently having, the gas and dia! All dogs have soft tummys, although some more than others, and it could be that she is just intolerable to this. If you take it from her, give her 48 hours without it, you will find she will improve. If she is not wanting toys and treats thats a good thing, encouraging training with treats is never a good thing although sometimes its the only thing that works. Treat training encourages begging and fighting, as a dog will think it has to work harder than another dog/person/animal to recieve a wanted treat! Good luck with your doggy, and any questions just ask!
 
Oh dear no!!! Maybe I should not have fed those week old chicken carcases that I defrosted and forgot about to the boys! I gagged when I opened the bag and they did look a bit green, but they were devoured with gusto and OMG they had no ill effects at all?? (BTW don’t recommend this for dogs that have not been on raw long, mine have been on it a long time having left unnatural, overcooked carb laden Muesli a long time ago, they have a very healthy gut and can eat anything that walks, swims, runs or crawls and when it died matters not!!!)

Trying to be polite here but have come across this intolerance theory before, My sis was told 15 years ago by a Vet working for a major feed manufacturer that her dogs had an intolerance to high protein diet and in particular chicken. Those dogs and three more generations have spent the intervening 15 years eating mainly chicken and high protein. The difference??? It was uncooked included bones and was of Human quality !!!!

Llewellyn – Please don’t be put off, but you need to look to feed the same sort of ratio of meat to bone as that on chicken wings or carcasses (about 20-30% meat 70-80% bone) This give the dog plenty of what they naturally use as roughage, that kind of ration will give the firmness you are looking for!! Lamb ribs are excellent for firming up, especially when most of the meat has been boned out.

Beef is actually the worst meat nutrient wise for dogs with chicken being the best followed by Lamb and Pork. Bone as well as providing nutrients in the marrow provides a dogs natural fibre content for most peoples raw diet although in the wild and in some diets this also includes fur/feathers and claws, but you don’t have to go that far!! Muscle meat is a bit like spring grass for a horse, it is easy to digest and puts on weight.
 
We have made dogs the way they are, we have bought int he intolerances they suffer with to this very day. By giving vaccinations etc. It wasn't an ''idiotic'' response, it was speaking from experience. I'd like to see you come to work and tell a client whats wrong with their dog. You would fail miserably. Bones and the like are not good for dogs, not just because of the intolerance, but due to the fact they are just that..BONES, have you even the slightest idea how many dogs have been bought into work, choking, and have died because of a bone they have been given? No, why? BECAUSE YOU DON'T WORK IN THIS AREA. Don't get smart-ass with me. We all have opinions, and I chose to speak from experience. Dogs can have raw meat, of course they can, mine is fed tripe on occasion, along with other bits and pieces, but actual bones are never good for dogs, they are dangerous if anything. Get over yourself, and why comment if you have nothing that can help the person asking a question. Shut your trap.
 
Zoey said:
We have made dogs the way they are, we have bought int he intolerances they suffer with to this very day. By giving vaccinations etc. It wasn't an ''idiotic'' response, it was speaking from experience. I'd like to see you come to work and tell a client whats wrong with their dog. You would fail miserably. Bones and the like are not good for dogs, not just because of the intolerance, but due to the fact they are just that..BONES, have you even the slightest idea how many dogs have been bought into work, choking, and have died because of a bone they have been given? No, why? BECAUSE YOU DON'T WORK IN THIS AREA. Don't get smart-ass with me. We all have opinions, and I chose to speak from experience. Dogs can have raw meat, of course they can, mine is fed tripe on occasion, along with other bits and pieces, but actual bones are never good for dogs, they are dangerous if anything. Get over yourself, and why comment if you have nothing that can help the person asking a question. Shut your trap.
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A response which could also be titled "how to win friends and influence people as a new poster on the HHO forum" :rolleyes:

Zoey there are many people who post on this forum who have more experience than you will ever have - please do not judge on the basis of one post? For example Cayla is a vet nurse with an incredible range of experience and knowledge; if she said not to feed bones, I would sit up and take notice, particularly since one of my dogs came from her :D Ditto KarynK and KatieLou who are both very knowledgable, well informed and intelligent about raw feeding - if you look back through the threads on AAD you will see most of us asking them for advice!

You have reason to have your opinion I dont doubt, but please do not dismiss the opinions of others who I would guess know a lot more than you do about raw feeding :) And please dont be rude and insulting in AAD, it might go on in the rest of the forum but we dont bother with it in here :)
 
Well said!Some of us on here have many many years living and working with dogs.Dogs are carnivores..fact..all these ghastly "complete" diets have a grain base,this ferments and causes gas in the stomach.The very last person I would ask about diet is a vet!They get to see problem dogs remember,so if they see a breed twice with the same problem they` then pronounce "that breed is prone to" that condition.

Bones do come in two catergories,softer "food"bones..such as chicken carcases or lamb flaps (wedges of filleted lamb rib) or play bones..those great big cow marrow bones. Now those can cause dental probs,at least with my bull terriers,but then THEY are extremely hard mouthed..so cracked teeth can occur.Other breeds are more "polite" about how they tackle them ,just horses for courses really.

I have had my breed since 1965,and fed in that way all that time,much as foxhound packs were fed..and the best still do,if it works...why change?

These dog food manuafacterers are not a charity,they turn waste into animal feed,present it well and charge as much as they dare.Me? Well I would much rather see for myself what goes into my dogs stomaches thanks...and it is so cheap to feed that way.
 
Have you ANY idea just how many dogs in this country are fed on bones correctly that have never had any problems what so ever????? And are you aware that this number grows every day thankfully.

Intolerances are not solely down to vaccinations, though vaccinosis may be a factor, in my humble uneducated opinion they are down to feeding a TOTALLY inappropriate diet recommended mostly by those with degrees in veterinary science, who's opinions are formed from a day or so's input on feeding canines usually from someone with lesser qualifications than them and affiliated to a pet food company.

Wheat, Barley, Oats, rice, Potato's and now carrots and legumes are used in pet food and a dog has NO DIETARY REQUIREMENTS for any of these, they are used as cheap fillers and more worryingly a cheap form of protein that is not good for dogs!!! We see wheat and cereal intolerances in humans put the rest together yourself.

What you are commenting on is the feeding of COOKED bone, and of course that is bad for dogs, Raw bones on the other hand are a STAPLE food for dogs. What on earth did you imagine dogs ate before some bright spark came up with a way to make money out of off meat and unfit for human consumption cereals about 80 odd years ago?????????????

NO I DONT WORK IN THAT AREA but I have fed dogs raw for 13 years and know people with dogs fed raw bones on virtually a daily basis for 3 whole generations. A huge percentage of working sled dogs are fed raw as well as pets and I must know personally over 100 dogs fed raw and THERE HAVE NEVER BEEN ANY PROBLEMS ONLY CONSIDERABLE BENEFITS.

So please do not start slagging off Raw feeding when you have no experience of it. If you will only listen to a Vet about what is best for dogs read Dr Ian Billinghurst books or go to Nick Thompson's website, he learned a lot of what he advocates from my sister who is a very experience raw feeder of 15 years, then you can start telling me that bones are bad for dogs.

I will happily argue that most dog food is bad for dogs but I do so having done my research about the quality of the ingredient's synthetic additives preservatives and even nutrients and cheap fillers no you do yours!!!
 
And quite by the by Zoey I too have worked "the other side of the vet`s front counter",and have a pretty deep and thorough knowledge through experience as well.Feeding this terrible way has bred me six bull terrier Champions and something like sixteen miniature bull terrier Champions;that does prove something in my book.
 
EastKent - would you post some pics of your bull terriers? I just love EBTs, would have one if I didnt work full time but I dont feel they would adapt to my lifestyle as well as lazy greyhounds do :D
 
Not that clever with pooters ..but will try and get a good friend to do it,in the meantime google "badlesmereterriers" and you`ll see our loony house and it`s many four legged occupants!:D Bullies are delightfully potty..it helps if their owners have a sense of humour:D:D
 
Not put off at all.
We have gone from four bright yellow poos a day to just one or two non smelly poos just consistancy not right yet...better than it was. We think we have narrowed down her intolerances to any colours and the ...something that is in canned meat to preserve it.
I spoke to a nutritionalist from Pedigree at Burghley, sorry forgot to post this at the time and he said in her case of severe hyperactivity and lack of focus it was best to feed raw as he thought it would be best for a dog like her :eek: even without prompting.
And with training without treats that is all very well but with a dog who works for cuddles it does mean that only I can get her to do anything. If you read back you will see she has severe submission issues especially with men (the reason we have her in the first place) so unfortunately it was a case of finding something that everyone can use but for now cuddles from me will have to do. (OH can have cuddles on sofa but less when we are out and about).
Thank you everyone for your advice.
 
Llewellyn said:
Not put off at all.
We think we have narrowed down her intolerances to any colours and the ...something that is in canned meat to preserve it.
I spoke to a nutritionalist from Pedigree at Burghley, sorry forgot to post this at the time and he said in her case of severe hyperactivity and lack of focus it was best to feed raw as he thought it would be best for a dog like her :eek: even without prompting.
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Yep those sorts of nasties will do it, but it generally seems to be blamed on meat intolerance by a lot of people that should really be asking more questions!!

On the second point I'm quite speechless, crikey !!!
 
Her tummy may settle down over the next week or so as her gut and the local 'flora' ie good bacteria will have to adapt to deal with her new diet as the digestion of raw etc will differ from dry/tinned etc as different bacteria will be needed to help break it down and the speed of digestion will be different. Sounds like she is on her way to adapting to it.:)
 
Zoey said:
We have made dogs the way they are, we have bought int he intolerances they suffer with to this very day. By giving vaccinations etc. It wasn't an ''idiotic'' response, it was speaking from experience. I'd like to see you come to work and tell a client whats wrong with their dog. You would fail miserably. Bones and the like are not good for dogs, not just because of the intolerance, but due to the fact they are just that..BONES, have you even the slightest idea how many dogs have been bought into work, choking, and have died because of a bone they have been given? No, why? BECAUSE YOU DON'T WORK IN THIS AREA. Don't get smart-ass with me. We all have opinions, and I chose to speak from experience. Dogs can have raw meat, of course they can, mine is fed tripe on occasion, along with other bits and pieces, but actual bones are never good for dogs, they are dangerous if anything. Get over yourself, and why comment if you have nothing that can help the person asking a question. Shut your trap.
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I've just found your post, Zoey, and I have to tell you that I'm rather saddened by it. I would point out to you, if you can be bothered to read through other threads, and posts, that, generally, most on here, conduct themselves in a civilised manner.

I rarely contribute to this section, but I have to tell you that some of the contributors are very experienced in all aspects of canine management. I don't always agree with everyone(!), but I manage to be civil, though it's currently proving to be a struggle!

Though you may have started your post with an interesting argument, you finished it, in such a way, that I'd respectfully suggest, that read your last three word sentence, and then accept your own advice.

Alec.

ps. there's always the option of an apology. a.
 
Bones are bad for dogs? Wow. I'll get on to the old dog and bone and tell my mother about that one...I suppose we can't sing 'Nick nack, paddywhack, give the dog a bone,' either.

Re training with food promoting begging, bit of a blanket statement that, I know quite a few high level police and (world standard) competition working dogs trained through their food drive and even more through prey/ball drive..can't see them begging from tables somehow.....
 
A change of diet will always cause a temporary upset to the gut - even between completes they recommend 2 weeks staged changed. This is less of an option with BARF due to the change in the activity of the gut and the risk of bloat/torsion. Rather a dog have a runny tummy for a few days than impaction :(

I love a BARF diet, my dogs love a BARF diet and also my purse loves a BARF diet! If you speak nicely to your butcher on 'cut up' day you may find you can take away treat bones for free. They have to pay to have them removed so will be happy to offload them - I had a butcher try and charge me for bones once, I changed butchers.

I class treat bones are the ones that take ages for them to eat - like the marrow bones, sheeps' heads etc. People say that they are bad as they can break teeth but all 4 of my dogs have these to keep them occupied when left alone and they all have beautiful teeth :)

The thing I have found particularly about BARF is how their coat looks and feels - no longer do they get that dull residue, the grey scum on your hand when you stroke them. They have a lovely, smooth, clean, glossy coat :)
 
No and we can't now say "As fit as a Butcher's Dog" !!!

It does make me really sad that the vast majority of the Veterinary and Veterinary Nurse profession (Cayla and the OH's road kill happily excepted) continue to support commercial dog foods so heavily and look almost automatically to a commercial answer to nutritional and nutrition related problems.

My biggest gripe is with Burn's and those that share his opinion that in just 80-100 years a dog can no longer stomach much meat!! The arrogance to suggest that we can do this in such a short time when Natural Selection took millions of years to perfect a system that can withstand an assault from bugs that will kill other animals including us?? WTF are we thinking????

The best illustration of this is the Giant Panda, from the bear family on the carnivorous side of omnivores that were first seen 2 to 3 million years ago.

During their evolution they began to adapt to eat plants and left their Carnivorous and omnivorous roots behind slowly adapting over hundreds and thousands of years to rely solely on plants namely bamboo as their food source. To do this they have slowly adapted, becoming slower and heavier to store the scant nutrients they can extract from the bamboo not having the gut length advantage of a Herbivore. In order to get enough nutrients to survive most of a panda’s time awake has to be spent feeding.

Despite specialising for this length of time their gut remains largely unchanged from that of your average bear. After Hundreds and thousands of years they still have the dentition and digestive system of an omnivore!!! And yet well educated vets (educated using MY MONEY) form this opinion about Carnivores adapting after 80 odd years ????????????????????? Words ALMOST fail me!!!

But not quite! Come on Veterinary Science at least look at the alternatives!!!!
 
Yep and isn't it funny when one week they are recommending something like Science Diet and the next they change to something like Royal Cannin is it because they all think one is better is it F*!!, its because the rep offered a better deal and threw in some freebies no doubt!!!
 
My vet was threatened with legal action for discouraging a client from using a certain 'high end' food - client told a rep, rep got back to HQ, he got a little phonecall. Too much of a gentleman to tell anyone which brand but I have my suspicions...
 
Big brother isn't it!

Just shows you how much money the business is worth and how much they are prepared to throw at protecting it!! Bet he was threatened with a big court case for daring to speak his mind, such a bloomin shame just when one speaks out the hand of God reaches out and gags him!!!! Trouble is the only research into food effectiveness is paid for by them, so other diets don't get looked at and are shouted down as there is no scientific data to support them, win win situation for the feed companies!!!

What a stupid client!!!!
 
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