Pirelli, where does it sit with breaking a horse?

[MotherOfChickens]

my tuppence worth-I dislike nearly all natural horsemanship methods, those I like wouldnt label themselves as NH trainers. NH doesnt apply learning theory or correct behaviour-its entirely based on the trainer's interpretation of behaviour and they are never objective. I've also yet to expereince an NH trainer who's willing to admit a horse is having a pain reaction and they therefore rely on shutting the horse down mentally. Its surprising (and sad) how often this words. when it doesnt it can lead to a dangerous or spoiled horse.
NH came about from a country whereby they want totally 'broke' horses, horses that will pack non riders around completely safely and not react to anything. I've known several good riders try Parelli a few years ago because they wanted to try a different approach-all of them wised up pretty quickly and either

OP get yourself a good traditional instructor on the ground. If you want something different but kind, look up Ben Hart for you and your horse for some reading and stuff you can continue to do with them when you're by yourself.

 

[ester]

TP yes, the couple of people I know I am not entirely sure of their full opinion and suspect they still use some bits but could have found them through their own methods anyway. Both are very good horsepeople and teachers. I think a lot of people liked the structure and sense of progress/regular back pats etc - of course if you spent all that money on the program you are going to believe it works.

At the RS when I was a teen and it was all quite new someone decided to do it with their new horse. That horse was PTS 6 months later for being dangerous. He wasn't, we handled him happily as fairly clueless teens, he was just big (Clyde) and thoroughly confused as to what was expected.

 

[Snuffles]

Can I just muse (idly) that the School holidays are here !

 

[tallyho!]

Can I just muse (idly) that the School holidays are here !

Shush! I was about a enjoy a great bunfight... I even had my snacks prepared and cushions all arranged!!

 

[Kayles]

It's a scientific paper but there are plenty of opinion/easy read pieces about that bit of research if you can be bothered to use your google search. Basically all it confirms, by proper robust research, what we have said here about alpha mares not existing.

It isn't that we have a personal grudge against parcelling, we dislike it because we have done some research and recognise it's many flaws as a general programme. Research that anyone should be doing before embarking on a journey with a new horse and I'd highly recommend you take a trip round the internet. There are loads of user friendly articles that can be read by excellent horse people and once you have armed yourself with some more information you will be in a better position to decide how you want to proceed.

It may also depend if you intend to sell or keep this horse, as you will reduce your market if it has been heavily parellid.

Thanks. I think that's the problem really, so much info on the internet and knowing where to start. I have benefitted from this thread as Its opened my eyes to how many people are of the opinion that parelli is harsh when my limited knowledge of the subject, and advice from my instructor, lead me to think it's based on natural horsemanship. In conclusion, I think I'll extract what I need from the seven games and use it as a change up from good on hopping on and cracking on routine. I've also now made my backing goals clearer with my instructor and subsequently I'm sure we will re-evaluate and refocus our efforts. Thankyou all

 

[Kayles]

Not HHO but a Parelli-friendly one, possibly American.

Parelli is not a system that sits well with people on this forum as whole, nor on the sub-forum "New Owners"

It's not a system that translates well into competitive riding, or indeed the horse being handled by non-Parelli based people.

I have just helped a friend of mine start her homebred 4 yr old. She has handled him since birth and done loads of in-hand work with him. Because she has followed a non-conventional groundwork method (not Parelli but similar), it has been very hard for the three of us (me, her and her young horse) to communicate.

It is like teaching a French speaking child how to write essays in English. We are getting there, but it has been confusing for all of us. And both my friend and I have a lot more experience with horses than you, OP. I have been backing a huge variety of horses for myself and other people for about 30 years.

Thanks for this

 

[Tiddlypom]

Can I just muse (idly) that the School holidays are here !

Shush! I was about a enjoy a great bunfight... I even had my snacks prepared and cushions all arranged!!

Very probably you are both correct! However, there are still a lot of interesting views and experiences which folk have posted, so IMHO it's been quite informative.

 

[ester]

There were other idle musings but it has been a while since it came up so .

And even in more general terms even the root concepts of 'natural horsemanship' and why that appeals to people is never a bad thing to address.

 

[tallyho!]

Very probably you are both correct! However, there are still a lot of interesting views and experiences which folk have posted, so IMHO it's been quite informative.

Good I'm glad. It's been well balanced so far given it's HHO...

 

[fburton]

TP yes, the couple of people I know I am not entirely sure of their full opinion and suspect they still use some bits but could have found them through their own methods anyway. Both are very good horsepeople and teachers

I imagine that some former pupils of Parelli who have become teachers and trainers in their own right are better horsepeople than both Pat and Linda. Maybe even much better.

Indeed, in my opinion that claim is pretty much proven when one considers the shameful episodes that have come to light via YouTube and their own DVDs - for example the Catwalk and Barney debacles.

 

[fburton]

... many people are of the opinion that parelli is harsh when my limited knowledge of the subject, and advice from my instructor, lead me to think it's based on natural horsemanship.

It certainly can be harsh - horrifyingly so on some occasions, for some people including me. Their argument might be that it may look harsh but, being "natural horsemanship" and therefore based on horses' own instincts and behaviours, it simply reflects - and is no worse than - what horses naturally do to each other. (I have heard this argument made explicitly by other NH clinicians and advocates.)

There are two problems with this view:

1) Horses are peaceable a lot more of their time than some give them credit for. Wild horse documentaries, for example, will inevitably show conflict and violence; horses co-existing peacefully and not doing very much for hours on end makes for boring TV, for most viewers. (Those who really look will see that "not doing very much" is full of subtle signs indicative of perception or communication.)

2) Even though argy-bargy is inevitable on occasion (more so in domestic herds than typically occurs in the wild), that doesn't mean we need to emulate this behaviour with our horses. If you can modify a horse's behaviour to your wishes straightforwardly without using violence and with minimal force, why would you want to do otherwise?? It's rarely, if ever, actually necessary to use violence or extreme force.

Just because horses sometimes kick and bite each other doesn't by itself mean it's justified or useful to do so ourselves, especially in routine training. Consistency, clarity, calm confidence, patience, timing - these are all far more valuable qualities than skill in mirroring a horse's aggressive behaviours. Readiness to use the latter betrays deficiencies in the former, in my opinion.

Regrettably, people get away with being harsh because horses are so adaptable (even forgiving up to a point). It's their nature to put up with a lot of unnecessary pushiness and rough handling, and may well learn to do what's required of them in spite of it. However, don't mistake the success of such methods as indicating the need for harshness. Horses learn despite it, not because of it.

 

[fburton]

and of course the whole concept of an alpha mare has relatively recently been called into significant question anyway, so potentially a totally flawed behaviour to be working on

https://www.researchgate.net/profil...ment-initiation-in-groups-of-feral-horses.pdf

Also if you are interested in behaviour and how you are working with it are you aware of the concept of learned helplessness? You might find a read of that helpful too.

People might want to take a look at this "position statement" from the International Society for Equitation Science, reflecting current (and enlightened, imo) thinking on the issue.

http://equitationscience.com/equita...ship-and-dominance-concepts-in-horse-training

(As was pointed out in another thread where this statement was discussed, it could go further in being explicit about what constitutes misapplication of dominance, and give examples.)

 

[fburton]

If you watch a herd for a decent length of time, you will see that there is no "Alpha mare". Different horses take the lead at different times, in different situations. Horses are wise enough to know that their relationships with humans are not the same as those with other horses.

Absolutely!

There may be one horse in the herd (or possibly several) that consistently bullies the others. If this horse is able, for example, to push other horses away from their hay piles one would be justified in also labelling it as the most dominant, because the ability to displace other individuals in relation to wanted resources (often food) and to hold on to those resources is central to what dominance is.

It is natural for we humans (evolved from primates who were also hierarchy-aware) to call this dominant horse the "leader" of the herd, imbuing it with a positively admirable quality. This is appropriate in our human culture, because the leaders we admire tend to be dominant too. For horses, though, the bully may just be a bully. The "leader", i.e. the horse the others are willing to follow (assuming there is just one such horse, which often isn't the case), may or may not also be the dominant horse. There is no hard and fast rule. That's because dominance and leadership are different qualities/roles for horses, but people understandably tend to mix them up. When they do get equated, there is then the risk that in wanting to be a "good leader" to our horses we adopt practices that resemble dominance, or excuse such practices in others.

 

[abbijay]

I have to say I haven't seen much of parelli in recent years (I'm on a amateur competitive yard these days so it doesn't really fit with people's aims) but a few years ago I was on a yard with a number of "parelliteenies". It was certainly not for me . There seemed to be 2 uses for it: 1 was effectively trick training and those horses frequently seemed shut down and could be aggressive when handled using non-parelli techniques. The other was for unconfident and unknowledgeable owners trying to get their horse to do something they were too fearful to attempt without a system to back it up.
One experience sticks out in my head: there was 2 lovely girls (close friends in their mid twenties) who had a TB and a coloured cob. The coloured cob needed to be sold due to family issues, they had already started playing with Parelli and the horse was known to be a bad loader. The horse sold and the poor girl came to speak to me one evening, panicking: it was only 1 week until the horse was being collected "but loading was a level 2 activity!" would she be able to get through all of level 1 in time? I managed to hide my distain that this lovely mare, who could be a bit stubborn, needed to do all these "games" before she was allowed to attempt to go on a trailer was utter rubbish, playing on the naivety and nervousness of this lovely girl. I felt this was a ridiculously prescriptive approach to horse training and does not recognise each horse as an individual.
FWIW OP, I think you need to sack your "trainer" and get someone on board who can support you in your very realistic ambitions. From what you are already doing you sound a handful of weeks away from your goal not months and probably not even 10 weeks. If I were you I would be impatient to crack on!

 

[MiJodsR2BlinkinTite]

I have (deliberately) not read other responses on here.

There is a you-tube video showing Pat Parelli treating a horse really badly: IF anyone is thinking about Parelli training then they need to watch this!

I saw a really good promising young horse totally ruined by its naive novice owner who'd been throughly duped and blinded by the Parelli method. The "solution" to the resultant problems which the so-called "instructor" gave, was to "take the horse back to level 1 because it hadn't learnt the lessons there properly".

I rest my case.