Plan B...? An update.

[milliepops]

Well, my lovely weird contradictory horse went to the vets today and they've found a couple of vertebrae in her neck with arthritic changes so low grade wobblers confirmed. Physio did a few tests last week so it wasn't a complete shock, bit of a grim acceptance instead.
The good news is that the x rays were unexpectedly clear views so no need for any further diagnostics, as they would have to refer on for contrast CT otherwise. and I got their top lameness/imaging vet to work her up so pretty confident in his prognosis that she is very comfortable being a horse and it will progress over the course of years rather than become a problem quickly.

Though I'm very disappointed I feel a weight lifted because I really was starting to question what on earth was going on that she just couldn't seem to make proper progress, when she's such a very kind and willing horse, it was beginning to really make me question my riding etc.

Had a long discussion with the vet about options. They can medicate the joints if/when she starts to look like she's struggling and he said from a pain POV those are highly effective even if they don't restore space in the joints so that's nice to have up my sleeve. No treatment needed at the moment, she can just bumble about suiting herself as if she's not ridden, she won't put her neck under any pressure voluntarily.
And as the rest of her is in such good condition on the x rays it is not likely to be congenital, more likely to be the result of some old trauma as a youngster.

So we might have a plan B for her career, it's a good time of year to be facing this but obviously lots to consider. But it's not contraindicated for her to be a broodmare. I know some will be eyerolling at that, but... we talked it over at length and they felt there was no additional risk to her, and not something she'd pass on to a foal. She's a sweet easy horse in every other respect, in fact vet said her good temperament was probably the reason why this hadn't come to light sooner. She's quite nicely put together IMO and I'm wildly sentimental about her breeding. So seriously considering it, but completely at a loss as to how you begin to pick a stallion.

Something to think about. Anyway, I said I would update after the "checking out" thread so here it is.

 

[ycbm]

Very interesting MP, thank you. Sorry it wasn't better news.

I am seriously considering neck x rays on my ex racer. He is extremely one sided and his neck cracks quite alarmingly! On the other hand, he can carrot stretch with a 180 degree turn both sides and all neuro tests are spot on.

We there anything obvious to see in your case?

 

[HufflyPuffly]

Wow, not the outcome I think many of us were expecting and sorry she wont do what you intended her to do .

However, if the vet has said its likely from trauma and is ok with her being a broodmare then it's quite an exciting if unexpected turn. I tried to get Doodle in foal in the dim and distant past, spent a fair bit and didn't get a foal but picking stallions and hoping for a foal was great fun .

 

[ester]

It's a bummer but as you say at least you know

 

[Denbob]

Oh MP that is a shame! As AH said though potentially very exciting times if you do decide to go ahead with breeding

 

[oldie48]

Bloody hell, MP, you so deserve better luck than this but she is so lucky to have found someone like you who is prepared to spend time and money to find out what's wrong. I am so so sorry but it would be exciting to breed from her. Sending a hug!

 

[ihatework]

Oh big fat hairy poos. I am sorry but at least you now know.

And you know me, not very good at keeping my trap shut, but IMO plan B is an awful idea.

She may be a sweet mare, but she isn’t that well bred, she is completely unproven and quite frankly you should save your money and invest in something better. You put so much into your horses and I don’t think a foal from this mare is sensible on any front. I’ll pm you an idea I have.

 

[milliepops]

Very interesting MP, thank you. Sorry it wasn't better news.

I am seriously considering neck x rays on my ex racer. He is extremely one sided and his neck cracks quite alarmingly! On the other hand, he can carrot stretch with a 180 degree turn both sides and all neuro tests are spot on.

We there anything obvious to see in your case?

She's super bendy too, I was surprised to see the state of her x Rays and vet commented that it was much more significant than he was expecting, we had already discussed referral for CT myelogram as apparently the xrays can often be inconclusive.

Anyway, to look at today, there were 2 other horses being trotted up and lunged etc and she stood and watched after she had done her bit, nerves a-jangling with excitement, but resting a leg randomly. She has never been able to halt properly, she just stops moving like it's musical statues and she did a bit of that today. parked with her legs not underneath her etc, or all her legs one behind the other like on a tightrope. You can put a foot out to the side resting on the toe, and she doesn't bother to move it. Yet the tail pull was OK, and she did the tight circles and backing up fine.

she's never felt like she was fully connected when you hack out etc and so this explains a few things, she really reminds me of a friends young horse who was a bit gangly and babyish and he was also a wobbler.

 

[milliepops]

Wow, not the outcome I think many of us were expecting and sorry she wont do what you intended her to do .

no, bit sad about that really as she has done some truly good work in between all the randomness so I had thought she might be a goodun eventually. Ho hum! at least I'm not just being a shit rider!

 

[SEL]

I had a feeling you were going to find something - although obviously hoping it would be fixable.

Completely get that you start to question yourself in these kind of situations. I've got a highly reactive one sitting in the field at the moment where it has taken me nearly two years of having my confidence bashed before a change in vet said 'yup, broken'. Also likely to be trauma from before I had her (going over backwards strongly suspected).

Good to know you're in no rush to make a decision about her future - and also good to hear the vets think that breeding is an option.

Do you think that she was showing some of this behaviour in previous homes and that was why she was being passed around a bit?

 

[milliepops]

I had a feeling you were going to find something - although obviously hoping it would be fixable.

Completely get that you start to question yourself in these kind of situations. I've got a highly reactive one sitting in the field at the moment where it has taken me nearly two years of having my confidence bashed before a change in vet said 'yup, broken'. Also likely to be trauma from before I had her (going over backwards strongly suspected).

Good to know you're in no rush to make a decision about her future - and also good to hear the vets think that breeding is an option.

Do you think that she was showing some of this behaviour in previous homes and that was why she was being passed around a bit?

vet said he thought almost certainly that it might have been something that has been presenting, on and off, for a while and that's why no one has ever really got started with her. She's been described as naughty in the past but that really didn't fit with her character.
I was expecting to find something too, I almost said hoping, I know you know what I mean. I was desperately hoping it would be minor but the relief of knowing it's not my fault is huge.

She has a lot of knotty scar tissue in her bum so whether that is all connected to some kind of accident, I'll never know but it's not impossible.

She's a bit too young to retire to the field forever, and a bit too happy (much too happy!) to pts, hence why the breeding discussion came about. but yeah it's nice to know she's entirely happy doing her own thing in the meantime.

 

[SEL]

vet said he thought almost certainly that it might have been something that has been presenting, on and off, for a while and that's why no one has ever really got started with her. She's been described as naughty in the past but that really didn't fit with her character.
I was expecting to find something too, I almost said hoping, I know you know what I mean. I was desperately hoping it would be minor but the relief of knowing it's not my fault is huge.

She has a lot of knotty scar tissue in her bum so whether that is all connected to some kind of accident, I'll never know but it's not impossible.

She's a bit too young to retire to the field forever, and a bit too happy (much too happy!) to pts, hence why the breeding discussion came about. but yeah it's nice to know she's entirely happy doing her own thing in the meantime.

I think a lot of 'naughty' is saying 'I hurt' sadly. She's lucky she ended up with you and you went looking for answers.

On the plus side stallion choosing will be exciting!

 

[milliepops]

I think a lot of 'naughty' is saying 'I hurt' sadly. She's lucky she ended up with you and you went looking for answers.

yeah I agree, the difficulty sometimes is being able to see the wood for the trees, i would never have said she was naughty and quite a lot of how she's been over the last year could be just training issues and dealing with a badly started horse, especially when they are making progress, albeit sporadic. Hence other instructors, trainers etc didn't see it as a physical thing either. But now we have a diagnosis it all slots perfectly into place.

I totally understand IHW's position on breeding btw, it may be that sense prevails and we reach the same conclusion nice to have a little daydream in the meantime though.

 

[DabDab]

Oh that's a shame that she's not going to be a ridden horse. But like you say, good to have a conclusive reason. Whatever you decide for her next she is lucky to have landed with you.

Was the damage just in her neck, with the rest of her spine clean?

 

[Ambers Echo]

That's so sad but as you say, good to know. If Amber had to be retired young I would love, love, love to breed from her (assuming it was safe for her), so can see the temptation. Good luck with whatever you decide x

 

[milliepops]

Oh that's a shame that she's not going to be a ridden horse. But like you say, good to have a conclusive reason. Whatever you decide for her next she is lucky to have landed with you.

Was the damage just in her neck, with the rest of her spine clean?

yup just those 2 vertebrae, c4 and c5. They also had a good feel round her legs etc though didn't do any x rays, but he said he would not expect to find any changes in hocks etc and her stifles were all good. no signs of OCD in the past which altogether makes it look like the result of trauma rather than general arthritic changes.

 

[milliepops]

That's so sad but as you say, good to know. If Amber had to be retired young I would love, love, love to breed from her (assuming it was safe for her), so can see the temptation. Good luck with whatever you decide x

thanks AE, I always wished I had been able to breed from Millie and they share the sire line which is what makes me sentimentally daft about her. heart vs head thing ...

 

[DabDab]

Ok, I'm a sentimental eejit so this should be taken with a pinch of salt, but....

You've mentioned breeding a foal on here a number of times in passing, so the idea really doesn't seem that silly and impulsive to me

 

[Cortez]

...except you need to be set up for youngstock, and most importantly you need to have other foals/yearlings/2/3 year olds for any proposed foal to socialise with. Sentiment is all very well, but practicalities have to be thought through too. It's also not a cheap proposition, nor a predictable one.

 

[Fiona]

Oh no milliepops, what a shame

Wasn't there someone recently who had their horses neck injected to great effect??? Aimeetees perhaps? Is that not a similar situation to your mare???

Fiona

 

[Rowreach]

I've always found that finding a reason for these things is a huge relief in many ways, though not always for the horse. If she can maintain a good quality of life then a plan B role as a brood mare isn't such a bad idea. I don't somehow think you are an indiscriminate breeder, or that you would do it without a clear idea of the pitfalls.

Researching suitable stallions is great fun, and is not entirely scientific - I'm sure you've the eye for type and temperament. Are you thinking this time round or leaving it till next year?

 

[DabDab]

...except you need to be set up for youngstock, and most importantly you need to have other foals/yearlings/2/3 year olds for any proposed foal to socialise with. Sentiment is all very well, but practicalities have to be thought through too. It's also not a cheap proposition, nor a predictable one.

I'm sure that MP was already aware of all these points when she posted the op...

 

[Cortez]

I'm sure that MP was already aware of all these points when she posted the op...

Wash she? Oh good.

 

[milliepops]

I'm sure that MP was already aware of all these points when she posted the op...

Yes thanks DD ... I know a few hobby breeders and there's a little stud down the road so potential options around off the top of my head. and land available to run youngsters on if need be. But yes fully accept all the various needs have to be met one way or another.

 

[ycbm]

...except you need to be set up for youngstock, and most importantly you need to have other foals/yearlings/2/3 year olds for any proposed foal to socialise with. Sentiment is all very well, but practicalities have to be thought through too.

I know this is the ideal, but I know of quite a few that were bought as weanlings and brought up with older company who turned out fine. I had one myself, he did well until he died at six of something unrelated.

It's also not a cheap proposition, nor a predictable one.

This is absolutely true, and of course once you've got a weaned foal, if not before, at livery, you've got the expense of two to keep. Unless you then give/loan the mare to a lower end stud or hobby breeder or as a companion

 

[milliepops]

It's only the ridden ones at livery lucky for me so anything else can go to the field... quite how many I'm permitted to collect remains to be seen ! 🤣 have stables etc just no school.

Rowreach... I think we'd crack on this year if we did it. I think my horsey godmother is breeding her mare again so that could work out. 🤷‍♀️

 

[JFTDWS]

I'm sorry it's not better news.

Think before you breed. But, you know that anyway You're not going to throw yourself into something without the means to deal with the consequences. So I hope you get a nice foal

 

[ihatework]

I have to say I costed the actual pregnancy about right - but underestimated how precious I’d be about his upbringing and I’ve certainly spent more getting him to 3yrs than I expected. Happy to elaborate about true costs if that helps. Otherwise I will shut up.

 

[milliepops]

Oh no milliepops, what a shame

Wasn't there someone recently who had their horses neck injected to great effect??? Aimeetees perhaps? Is that not a similar situation to your mare???

Fiona

I don't know if clinically they are the same, steroid injections are definitely an option and he said if she was already a top performance horse then that would be indicated in order to try and maintain near-current performance for a couple of years. patch them up and keep on going , kind of thing. But it won't undo what's already done, it could just reduce inflammation in the soft tissues around the facet joints. I could still do that, but tbh I am not really looking to put my heart and soul into training a horse that is a time bomb. After all all horses are time bombs, I'd just rather train one that I don't know the fuse is already lit. It would always be in the back of my mind and I know the heartbreak of riding a horse that you are just dreading the moment it all goes wrong again.
The same injections might be of use in the future if she starts to have functional difficulty or pain just bimbling around. apparently they are very effective at providing long term pain relief. but he felt at the moment she was totally comfortable when she was in control of her posture, it was only asking her to work that was causing the pain in those joints. We spent quite a long time talking about that because I don't want her to be suffering at any point.

I've always found that finding a reason for these things is a huge relief in many ways, though not always for the horse. If she can maintain a good quality of life then a plan B role as a brood mare isn't such a bad idea. I don't somehow think you are an indiscriminate breeder, or that you would do it without a clear idea of the pitfalls.

Researching suitable stallions is great fun, and is not entirely scientific - I'm sure you've the eye for type and temperament. Are you thinking this time round or leaving it till next year?

yes a huge relief. totally gutting but i can stop beating myself up now. And yes, definitely got eyes open about the cons.

I'm sorry it's not better news.

Think before you breed. But, you know that anyway You're not going to throw yourself into something without the means to deal with the consequences. So I hope you get a nice foal

yes definitely. I tend to be one of those over cautious "nope better not" kind of people so the likelihood is we won't do it. But I do try to ensure that all my horses end up with a proper plan for the end one way or the other, I would like to think I'm a responsible owner .

I have to say I costed the actual pregnancy about right - but underestimated how precious I’d be about his upbringing and I’ve certainly spent more getting him to 3yrs than I expected. Happy to elaborate about true costs if that helps. Otherwise I will shut up.

thank you, I would be interested just so I feel like I'm dealing with the full facts. It's interesting anyway from a nosy point of view. I have always intended to have a foal at some point in my life so it's handy info in the bank anyway if this isn't the time. and then I can work out what we could accommodate already at no additional expense (hay, feet and grass keep being the main things already accounted for tho I am aware that will just be the tip of the iceberg!).

 

[JFTDWS]

yes definitely. I tend to be one of those over cautious "nope better not" kind of people so the likelihood is we won't do it. But I do try to ensure that all my horses end up with a proper plan for the end one way or the other, I would like to think I'm a responsible owner .

Oh I don't doubt it.

I'd quite like to see a Salty foal...