Planning consent for manage - permitted development?

tootsietoo

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Getting fed up of trawling local council website and Planning Portal so wondered if someone can give me a shortcut!

I have been told by all and sundry that I definitely need planning permission to build a manege. However, I cannot find anywhere the policy that tells me that I do. I'm a chartered surveyor, and although I don't specialise in planning, I have done a fair few applications in the past and know how to read a local plan, so I hope I'm not being a numpty!

Class G permitted development (in the general permitted development order 1995) says that "The provision within the curtilage of a dwellinghouse of a hard surface for any purpose incidental to the enjoyment of the dwellinghouse as such" is permitted. This could well be applied to an outdoor riding surface.

Can anyone point me in the direction of a specific general development policy which says you have to get PP for a manege? There's nothing in my local plan which I can find which says I need it.

And before you suggest ringing the council, they were completely unhelpful and told me to fill in the "request for information about permitted development" form or somesuch, which costs £65 and takes 21 days. It drives me mental, they also charge you for pre-application advice these days too!

Thanks

PS grr for the spelling error in the title, think the computer must have changed it for me!
 
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Polos Mum

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Why don't you call one of the big menage companies who do a full planning service - I'm sure they'd know the rules as it's their day job.

Would you want it that close to your house?
 

*hic*

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Can you fit it within the curtilage of your dwelling? I assume I'm teaching my grandma to suck eggs by pointing out that your garden and land around your house is not necessarily part of the curtilage of the dwelling. You're also quoting "hard surface", now, whilst I don't approve of people covering up draining land with hard surfaces, a riding surface would not be described as hard.

It's a gamble, it might be that no-one notices and no-one complains. On the other hand if someone does and the council won't grant retrospective permission that's an awful lot of money down the drain.

I'm afraid I can't point you to a specific general development policy.
 

tootsietoo

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thanks for the answers. I am hoping perhaps an equestrian planning specialist might be knocking around here somewhere! Will google and see if I can find one local to me.
 

TGM

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Ditto the above - depends whether the manege would be in the official curtilage of your dwelling, which is not the same as all the land owned by you. Usually fields are not included in the 'curtilage' and planning permission would therefore be needed for a manege if you wanted to build one in your field area. I have heard of people who have built manages in their gardens though, to avoid having to get planning (assuming that garden is officially in the curtilage).
 

tootsietoo

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It would be hard to define the curtilage, but the manege would probably would fall outside it as it will be in the paddock. I don't believe that my paddock (approx 1.6ha) is classified as agricultural land. I guess the key is the definition - is it within the curtilage or not, and if not, is it agricultural land and, if not, what is it. I've found a number of articles on line which say things like "obviously for a manege you need planning consent" but it's not obvious at all as far as I can see!
 

Polos Mum

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TBH if you're going to spend £15-25k on a school then for an extra £300 just get the planning, I am nothing to do with building/ planning but I did the drawings and filled in the forms for our planning application - the cost was minimal and worth it in the long run as there is no debate.

The only complicated thing I had to do was send them a photo of post and rail fencing as they weren't clear what it would look like !!!!!
 

horseaddict

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Going through the same :( My council told me the "development" was a change of use (from grass to modified surface) and so i need full planning.
 

tootsietoo

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I agree Polos Mum. But I generally try to avoid planning officers - I had a particular experience where they tried to dictate what I was and wasn't allowed to do with a property I was marketing and after a fair bit of research into the precise detail of the policies I managed to show them that they were wrong and they had to back off. On the principle of it I don't want to make a planning application if technically I don't have to - it opens you up to site visits and interference (and numpty questions like what does post and rail look like!)
 

tootsietoo

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See that's it horse addict - it surely isn't a change of use? If it is, I want to know what policy they are referring to to back up that statement. Did they tell you?
 

Angus' yard

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Whereabouts in the country are you? We've just gone through planning for a manège. Our council was most interested in the drainage, construction, and even asked what colour the surface was going to be (rubber!!). We used a planning consultant.
 

horseaddict

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No tootsietoo, they didnt. To be honest im desperate to have the arena and so am going along with them, but it does seem unfair/silly. The girl i spoke to said i was changing the appearance/use of the land so need full planning. Im already using that area for riding only, so technically it will have the same use.The cost of planning for this is the same as for building a house covering the same area !
 

mattydog

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We built ours without planning but years later someone from the council was down looking at something else following a complaint from the local busybody. Asked about the arena as it wasn't on his records. As it had been built so long ago there was nothing he could do about it but apparently we should have had pp.
 

tootsietoo

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In my opinion, council planners will never say you can do anything without PP unless it's absolutely clearly a permitted development right - they arse-cover all the time! And it is wrong that they should take £300 fees if they are not entitled to it. It sounds as if I am swimming against the tide, but I want to know on what basis they want to give consent, and without having to pay them £21 for the privilege of being told that!! Planning consultants make their money from councils arse-covering and confusing people when they really don't need to.

are you in cheshire east mattydog?
 

Tiddlypom

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I used Charles Britton's free planning service to get our PP. I imagine if that there was a way to circumvent the planning laws, that the arena construction companies would have latched on to it by now!

CB got us permission for a 60m x 20m sand and rubber arena, plus a 20' x 12' field shelter, for an application fee payable to the council of £335 (in 2011).

(Could only afford to build a 40m x 20m arena, but can extend it to full size at any later date, if funds allow).

Agree re the comment about busy bodies. Our build went without a hitch, but recently there was a right kerfuffle about another local stable + arena application. I was highly relieved that all our stuff was 100% above board, as I know that both sides checked out out our plans....
 

Gift Horse

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I asked my OH (planning consultant) he says.
The main reason pp is needed for a manege is because the required drainage work is considered engineering work and this requires pp.
pp may not be required if the manege is sited in the curtilage of a dwelling house ie the garden, but unless the curtilage is well defined this can cause more problems. A menage in a paddock will always require pp.
 
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lamlyn2012

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We had to get pp for ours. I think because it is classed as permanent. You should actually get pp if you want to have a permanent set of show jumps in a field.
According to defra, land for the keeping of horses is agricultural if the horses are farmed for meat or hide, or used to work the land. The council, however, seem to want to class land for keeping pleasure horses as agricultural too.
 

RunToEarth

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Generally, the answer is yes you need full planning permission. This includes ménages, stables and conversion of existing buildings. However, some exceptions do apply where the building is within the curtilage of a dwelling house and is for the incidental enjoyment of that dwelling house (i.e. personal use) although it must still adhere to the other limitations of General Permitted Development. worth noting that the definition of agriculture for planning purposes does not include horses other than those kept for working on the land or for meat purposes.

I would also bear in mind the tax implications of constructing a ménage and whether it will be rated.
 

Fides

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Also by applying for planning you are making the council aware of your presence. They are now charging business rates on all properties with stables. You can claim it back by proving you are not getting an income from it but you will still have to pay a degree. A bit galling really if the stables are on the land associated with the property that you are already paying council tax for.
 

kathantoinette

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Not read all posts, so apologies if I'm repeating what others have said.

We are in the fold of East Riding of Yorkshire council. I am getting a menage built very soon. It is going in my existing paddock and is classed as change of use because you are changing the structure of the ground - the digging out and many layers of stone and topping.

My OH builds sand schools and all of the ones he has built - the customers have got planning permission.

I completed my application through the Portal and did a (what I thought was super!) drawing of where the school was going. It got sent back and I had to pay an architect for a scaled drawing. They also wanted to know the type of fencing I was erecting around the school.

The planning fee was £370. Architect about £200 and they submitted the whole application for me in the end.

I'm not permitted to put lighting up. The school is on the edge of a single track lane. I can see that huge beaming spotlights might be an issue for the drivers down the lane. I'm not too concerned about the lighting as I can usually ride in the day time.
 

Mamamia

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Having just got planning permission for mine, I understand that pp is not needed for the arena itself but for the change of use of the land where the arena is situated. Ours is going in the field, and so the whole field (and the adjoining one) have a change of use from agricultural to equestrian. If the total area is over 1 hectare, it is considered "major development" and therefore has a 13 week determination period. So, in short, yes you probably need planning permission.
 

tootsietoo

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Thanks all. It's not change of use in accordance with the Use Classes Order, so it must be a change of use relating to building regs somehow - so thank you, that has pointed me in the direction of the building regs, and Gift Horse what your OH says about engineering suggests that too. I'll settle down with the building regs tonight then! Just to satisfy my own pernickety-ness before I do the application.
 

Gift Horse

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To clarify. It is not a building regs issue, it is a development issue. Engineering works are development and therefore require pp. It is the development that requires pp. development doesn't necessarily mean a building
 

case895

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I used Equestrian Design for my planning consent. Even so, we had Highways and all sorts sticking their noses in and caveats on the use of the manege.
 

tootsietoo

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thank you Gift Horse, I was thinking that after I posted as obviously building control and planning control are separate things. Through surfing and reading now, I've also discovered that technically we should have applied for consent for a change of use when the field started being used for grazing our horses rather than next door neighbours cows. Also that our paddock, although part of our property, is almost certainly not defined as within its curtilage. And I've also found the definition of development which, as you say, must include building a manage ("building or engineering works in/over/under land"). So - PP is needed for Development outside the curtilage of a property, therefore I need PP. Sounds simple now, but I don't TRUST the b***** planners not to get it wrong! (Although obviously it's not likely all the arena builders and planning lawyers are wrong, but I like to have things straight in my head!)
 

tiramisu

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You need to apply for full planning permission for a change of use which is £385, as you will be changing the land from grazing to a manege.
As a massive generalisation most land in the countryside which is not within the curtilage (house&garden) is classed as agricultural even if it is not farmed.
You do not need permission to have horses in a field grazing, but there is a grey area where if they are being fed substantially more than they are grazing or/and you ride in the fields then you may need a change of use to "horsiculture" even if you are not doing any works as horses do not fall within the definition of agriculture.

It makes me sad when I read threads like this :( where I work we try so hard to be helpful, don't charge for advice etc but it seems so many other councils go out of their way to be unhelpful...

Also, you don't need architecturally drawn plans as long as they are to scale they're fine (graph paper is your friend ;) ). Plus, it is simple (or should be) to submit a planning application, many of these 'specialist' horsey planning consultants cost ALOT of money for old rope imo...with a little help from the council people could save thousands....
 
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tootsietoo

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absolutely tiramisu! I'm not paying anyone to do it for me, they will have to be satisfied with my scale rule and graph paper! I'm assuming you're a planning officer, or work in a planning department? As you say, one simple conversation to confirm to me that manege falls within definition of development and the curtilage rule, and I would have understood the need for PP and saved myself a few hours - many others might have decided to employ a planning consultant and spent money they didn't need to. Instead when I called I was told I needed to submit a request for advice and pay a fee. I appreciate planning departments probably have a lot of enquiries to field, but they are funded by tax payers to serve the needs of the population......

Obviously there's no such use as "manege" so I assume the change of use is to residential, C3? I think because I ride in the field and the horses are in at nights and fed, technically it wouldn't be grazing land, but form part of the property? (I think I need to get a life. I would have enjoyed being a planning lawyer!)
 

Greygirl

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Yes you would need full planning. Whether the land is agricultural will not matter because an arena would not be used for agricultural purposes and therefore would not fall within agricultural permitted development. An arena would be classed as an engineering operation which would fall within the definition of development and therefore require planning permission. If you make an application enclose a sample of the proposed surface to avoid any numpty questions during the application.
 

tiramisu

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Yes, I am a planning officer, for my sins ;)

The use classes order doesn't cover every potential use (would be pretty impossible!) any use that doesn't fall within the defined one's is classed as 'sui generis' which I would imagine an arena to fall within. Having said that, there is a leisure class (D2) which it could also be, I would have to check the gazeteer at work tomorrow...

Like I said, it's a bit of a grey area, but stabling the horses at night wouldn't necessarily mean you needed change of use for the land, but riding may, depending how often (if it's now & again, only in summer for example, you could argue your riding in them is incidental to their main use for grazing & therefore pp not required)
This will however depend on what stance your own council has taken in the past.

Additionally, if the council decide you need pp but you have been using your fields for 10years then that is outside the timeframe within which the council can take enforcement action (so you can tell them to sling it ;) )

If you haven't used them for 10years and decide to change your land to horsiculture anyway, to cover yourself for future/intensified use then it's worth noting that if you include it within your application for an arena then it won't increase the fee. It will still be a single application for change of use.
 
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