Playing or bullying? *videos*

No definitely play and frustration from the coloured cob! He just wants to get the muzzle off, the bay at the end of the 2nd video was tugging at your horses rug - this is just what they do.

My horse has been not the favourite at our yard over the past couple of years and everyone has not wanted their horse turned out with him, he is 6 now but has been known to pull/rip rugs especially in his younger days :eek: and is very playful. He is also very adept at taking off grazing muzzles - if only we were near each other they could be play mates! As a much more grown up 6yo he now baby sits an 8 month old colt and he's doing a really good job of it - will play for a while but then sees the young un off! I really believe in turning horses out together so that they can learn from each other (obviously if this was REALLY unsafe then its a no no).

Get the muzzle off and have more hay piles and see how they go - maybe put your old rugs on :)
 
amymay said:
When does Chico dubble barrel the coloured??
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about 2 mins in on 1st video.

However, I dont blame him.

I have to say that it is play but very boisterous play. I also agree with everyone else in that the coloured would be much happier with the muzzle off.

If any of them are to be removed, I would suggest the coloured cob gets put in a paddock on his own with the muzzle off.

There is just no way he could possibly eat with that on in those conditions which is why he is pestering your boy so much. He is bored and hungry.

Godd luck.
 
It is playing but there is an obvious element of frustration, understandably, from the cob. How much of their turn out time is spent with him bothering yours like this? I'm afraid I totally disagree with a muzzle being used at this time of year as a preventative measure for rug damage, he should be out with others that are unrugged in that case. Are there any other problems with his social behaviour that this muzzle prevents?
To be blunt, if it were a group of mine with one behaving like this, they would be rearranged.
 
amymay said:
When does Chico dubble barrel the coloured??
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I would agree, it's play, none of kicks have any power so I would not say 'he double barreled' at any point. It looks really quite playful to me, not a single proper ears back lunge and although he gets peed off I would say Chico doesnt mind enough to 'see him off' properly.

It must so horrbile to be muzzled in that field, so boring as everyone has said.

PErsonally I would remove mussle put out hay and see how he settles when he has something to do beside be annyoing. He will never learn if taken out of a herd situation.
 
Didn't the OP say that the muzzle was on because the horse bites and rips rugs?

Just re-read it - because it pulls rugs.. Also says that the horse is new to the field and yard, so things should become more settled soon...

To me its classic youngster behaviour. He is playing - he is a toddler and doesn't know when to stop - like a puppy that nips too much, then grows out of it... Unfortunately thats what youngsters do.

It does look more like playing than bullying - your horse is a bit irritated, but neither of them panic when he gets his legs on the other horse's back - the youngster looks like he enjoys the reaction! I'd be more worried if they were constantly backing up at each other, as thats when they really fight and you should be worried, but they're not.

Our 4yr old did this constantly with our other horses,and particularly picks on one gelding because he gets a reaction. We had to muzzle ours to get them out of the habit, but it hasn't worked in this case! Our two are great friends, and groom each other a lot as well as acting like they do on the videos! They calmed down a lot in the end, and haven't had their muzzles on yet this winter.. My only problem with it was when it was costing me hundreds in rug repairs - they loved dragging each other around by their rug straps. I actually like the fact that they're moving around in the field and exercising, rather than just eating, as ours are all fat good doers!

With our group, the mares are best with this youngster, as when they tell him off they mean it - he gets chased away with teeth bared and strong body language - they've never actually kicked or bitten him, but made it perfectly clear that they will if he steps out of line with them, and he doesn't bother them at all now, just concentrates on his friend who will play..

Its really difficult on a livery yard. The youngster needs to socialise, but not upset other liveries. If your yard is aware, perhaps it isn't that bad? It looks like a well cared for,well fenced place, and most YOs would not knowingly put two horses in the same field that were dangerous together...
 
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I think it's really gelding games, and Chico initiates it sometimes. I wonder if it is aggravated by the fact that the cob seems to find it very hard to eat with that muzzle on. Are they suitable for use when a horse is eating hay? There's nothing else for him to eat on a frozen field. It looks to me as if the muzzle is hanging down quite far off the end of his nose, I'm not sure he's going to be able to eat much at all. If he can't eat, he's going to get bored and bothersome. I suspect that putting the muzzle on may have solved one problem (the rugs) and caused another.
Chico didn't double barrel the cob, if he'd meant to do that he'd have made contact, he was just warning the cob away.
 
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p.s. I know people worry about rugs, but I think it would be a sad thing to put a youngster in a field on his own just for doing what horses do. Horses need socialisation with others and geldings tend to enjoy a play. There's nothing in this video that would worry me very much, but I'd get the muzzle off and give them more hay.
 
Its playing - the cob is younger and wants to play (as well as take muzzle off).
Your horse dosent want to play and is telling youngster to go away.

It is not bullying as if it was your horse wouldnt defend.

My 4 year old annoys the hell out of his companion (older). Companion is smaller at 13.2, and is most definately the boss, whereas mine is 17h!
mine plays, and is funny to watch, as he will spontaneously jump into canter moments after eating, and canter around other pony. He bucks, leaps, and then settles :p
 
Tinypony said:
p.s. I know people worry about rugs, but I think it would be a sad thing to put a youngster in a field on his own just for doing what horses do. Horses need socialisation with others and geldings tend to enjoy a play. There's nothing in this video that would worry me very much, but I'd get the muzzle off and give them more hay.
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The problem with him pulling the rugs off is that if it gets tangled round the rug wearers legs it could be really dangerous.

Its a shame that the owner of the cob is not here asking advice as, OP, you are stuck in a difficult situation and cant do a lot about it unless YO agrees to change the fields around. Ideally Mr Cob would be in a field with other youngsters that dont wear rugs so they can play and charge about as horses do with minimal risk.
 
Not too mention the bloody price of rugs, A gelding at our yard is now thankfully gone after literally destroying a turnout rug I had for madam, pulled it clean off her .

I can see the cob is perhaps fustrated with the "hannibal lecter mask" but it does seem to be showing some sort of dominance and just won't leave your horse alone .
 
See it's tricky to decide just on two videos. In the first your lad trots with his head down which would suggest (to me) submissive behaviour, but he then lifts his head and flicks it like he's having fun?

I would say there is some evidence of dominance under the surface but I wouldn't be worried and certainly wouldn't say it was bullying. The fact your horse is happy to play back suggests to me they're having fun and probably trying to sort a hierarchy but don't feel the need to be actually aggressive to each other.

I have to say Phil has done on more than one occasion, double barrelled at horses that trot behind him with their nose up his bum. That soon stops the play, you can tell by watching that he really does mean "bugger off" whereas I'd say your videos suggest playing.
 
I guess it is down to interpretation then.

To me, Chico does get annoyed and is trying to get the cob to leave him in peace after a while.
 
Geldings play like that. Mine are older and still have little spells of this sort of larking around, they snake their heads (not submissive), kick their heels up, chase each other, do a bit of necking. It's just what they do.
I get uncomfortable with the word dominance because it has negative connotations, and somehow puts the "dominant" horse in the wrong. I think if the little cob had no muzzle, plenty of hay, and was left to settle with new friends for a month he wouldn't be so wound up. He'd still play boy games though I'm sure, he's only 3.
 
I can't see the video's on this PC but wanted to comment anyway as my horse is a boisterous git and will pester and pester horses to play with him. Trouble is he likes hard play, the harder the better and will not take no for an answer. He gets more and more cheeky, for want of another word, until he gets a reaction. He is NOT aggressive, there isn't an aggressive bone in his body but he is a right royal pain in the bum to other horses. He never seems to tire either!

The culmination came in 2005 when he was double barrelled in the chest, it happened right in front of me. The pony gave him all the I've had enough now back off signals but Dennis ignored him. My vet bills were horresdous and years of rehab and physio followed.

I had hoped he would grow out of it but he hasn't and is now 10. I let him play with my stallion over the stable door sometimes - my stallion grew up in a herd of boys so is well socialised. The way they go at eat other makes people gringe but they ARE playing. Either of them could move away at any time. There is no bared teeth or pinned ears.

I'm afraid that now Dennis lives in his own field. He has the mares next to him for company and although they talk to him they won't play with him. The injuries just aren't worth it.

By the way his breeder said that he was awful to his mum who never told him off. Apparently he climbed all over her and she let him, she'd had other foals and was the same with them.

So I blame his mum (called Angel!) for not teaching him was is and isn't socially acceptable in a herd.
 
I'd say that is not playing, or fighting either. The poor cob is being driven mad by the horrible muzzle and is desperate for Chico to help him pull it off.

He can't possibly eat anything in a frozen field wearing that surely, poor thing??!

If he were mine, I would be asking for individual turnout until the spring, then when the grass grows long enough for him to eat, he could go back out with the others albeit, back in the muzzle.
 
thank you so much for all the constructive and informative replies. I havent had a youngster before so have never witnessed such play. I am sure others will know the worry of a protective mother watching her 'child' playing in the playground.

had a chat with YM and cobs owner this evening and we have all agreed that the muzzle is cruel in this weather and as of tomorrow cob will be turned out without the muzzle.
The Ym will then bring him in early before juvenile bordem sets in which is when he has been identified as causing most problems.
Cob owner was horrified that her cob may be ripping rugs and said she wants to avoid this as much as possible, we all recognise the price of rugs nowadays.
I expressed concerns over Chico causing any injuries to cob with his kicks and bites and cob owner said she felt more worried about injuries the other way around due to Chicos finer bone but we all agreed to monitor the situation and readdress it should any more problems arise.
 
Thats true - I forgot to say, all our horses come in early in snow and go out later when its frosty.

They come in earlier because they get bored quicker & start to mess about :)

They go out later when its frosty, wait for sun to rise and thaw grass (too many sugars early)
 
Paint Me Proud said:
thank you so much for all the constructive and informative replies. I havent had a youngster before so have never witnessed such play. I am sure others will know the worry of a protective mother watching her 'child' playing in the playground.

had a chat with YM and cobs owner this evening and we have all agreed that the muzzle is cruel in this weather and as of tomorrow cob will be turned out without the muzzle.
The Ym will then bring him in early before juvenile bordem sets in which is when he has been identified as causing most problems.
Cob owner was horrified that her cob may be ripping rugs and said she wants to avoid this as much as possible, we all recognise the price of rugs nowadays.
I expressed concerns over Chico causing any injuries to cob with his kicks and bites and cob owner said she felt more worried about injuries the other way around due to Chicos finer bone but we all agreed to monitor the situation and readdress it should any more problems arise.
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Thats excellent news.

Would be interesting to see a video of them when the cob isnt wearing his muzzle. Would really love to compare them.
 
doesn't look like playing or bullying, the poor horse is trying to get the muzzle off, can you see how he is scraping his face along the ground? I can't understand why on earth anyone would muzzle a horse in a paddock in winter with no grass?
 
Both horses are playing, the piebald needs the muzzle removing so he can actually eat and things should settle down as he's using Chico to try to remove his muzzle.
Removing one of the horses to prevent natural horse behaviour would be a bit mean in my opinion.
Edited to say I'm pleased a solution has been found :)
 
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