cptrayes
Well-Known Member
Can you tell me if there was any treatment identified by the scan? My vet tells me that a scan is very unlikely to tell us anything, and that even if it did, it's then very unlikely that what the scan finds can be treated.
Please count your horse's blink rate.
- Thread starter cptrayes
- Start date
Can you tell me if there was any treatment identified by the scan? My vet tells me that a scan is very unlikely to tell us anything, and that even if it did, it's then very unlikely that what the scan finds can be treated.
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
Thanks for your counts everyone. It's pretty clear that one blink every second or two is very unusual. I just wish I knew how much pain he's in. I don't like watching his wrinkled eyebrows, it just screams 'headache' at me 
I'd turn him away for a year and see if it goes away, but he gets laminitis at the drop of a hat. Talk about high maintenance!
I'd turn him away for a year and see if it goes away, but he gets laminitis at the drop of a hat. Talk about high maintenance!
Regandal
Well-Known Member
I know that in humans they use various drugs for nerve pain, commonly amitriptyline and gabapentin. Ultimately they can de-nerve, by cutting or zapping a nerve. Not sure if any of this can transfer to horses.
rara007
Well-Known Member
I did this as part of a study last week- during stress (a weaver weaving) we got up to 32 blinks in 3 mins...otherwise it was down by 12 on average. (including one with recurrent Uveitis leading to partial blindness)
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
From what I've read, it's very patchy in horses as to whether drugs or denerving work.
Holly Hocks
Well-Known Member
As the scan in my case didn't show any damage there was no treatment to be had and since then, her headshaking has reduced significantly (she was a dreadful headshaker after the operations, now it is just more of an occasional tic) so I now think that the headshaking was caused by aggravation to all the tissues inside. But we did discuss the options if there was damage and they talked of cauterising (I think that was the word) the trigeminal nerve - the risk with this being that the nerve could regenerate. They also discussed a trial with a steroid but I can't remember the name of it - I will try to remember
Holly Hocks
Well-Known Member
Carbemazepine is what it was called, I think.
YorksG
Over the hill and far awa
Couldn't get to count ours this evening, as too gloomy and they were too interested in what we were doing. It sounds to be a tic, which may be pain related, but may not. Would it be possible to do a bute trial and see if it reduces the blinking, if it doesn't then it would point to neurological damage either as a result of the original injury, or maybe even the cause of it.
TigerTail
Well-Known Member
Ive got cluster headaches which are linked to trig problems - quite frankly, and I'm sorry this is so blunt as Im sure you are doing everything in your power, no way on earth would I ride this horse, and Id probably PTS. The pain I was in a couple of months ago I did find myself banging my own head to try and alleviate it :/ I could barely see with sunglasses on outside, noise, movement, wind etc all but had me on my knees
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
Ive got cluster headaches which are linked to trig problems - quite frankly, and I'm sorry this is so blunt as Im sure you are doing everything in your power, no way on earth would I ride this horse, and Id probably PTS. The pain I was in a couple of months ago I did find myself banging my own head to try and alleviate it :/ I could barely see with sunglasses on outside, noise, movement, wind etc all but had me on my knees
This is what I am afraid of. He is laid off waiting for a fracture to heal, so no riding for at least a month yet. But if this continues and I am not able to get a good prognosis of a recovery, I will not let him carry on in pain. Thank you for sharing your experience TT
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
As if everything else was not enough YG, he is also a huge risk for ulcers, which he also gets at the drop of a hat. That makes a Bute trial risky too.
spookypony
Well-Known Member
I have nothing useful to say (too dark to go count blinking just now), so will send lots of (((vibes))) to Ace, who seems to be having a bit of a rough time. I hope you get to the bottom of it, and that it's something that can be treated well.
mynutmeg
Well-Known Member
I had a period of trigeminal neuralgia which was caused by tooth issues - it is, without doubt, the worst pain I have ever had, and this is including 2 popped discs with severe sciatica and bilateral ankle fracture/discloations. Medication was very effective (after a week) at controlling the pain while the cause was fixed, however I don't know if that sort of thing is feasable in horses and I have to say I agree with TigerTail.
Big hugs for both of you and I really hope you get to the bottom of this (also agree with the person who suggested a nerve block as a good diagnositic to see if that helps)
Big hugs for both of you and I really hope you get to the bottom of this (also agree with the person who suggested a nerve block as a good diagnositic to see if that helps)
mynutmeg
Well-Known Member
My experience of TN was that normal pain killers didn't touch it - in a 24 hour period I was taking maximum dose paracetamol, aspirin, ibuprofen, and oral morphine and that simply wasn't touching it. I ended up on an anti-eplileptic medication that does something to the nerve which made a huge difference however I went around in a drugged stuppor whilst on it. From that I'd say a bute trial probably wouldn't make much, if any difference to that sort of nerve pain.
TigerTail
Well-Known Member
Just been milking this over - have you a biig barn he could be in all the time with a companion and adlib soaked hay? Trying to cover light/ lami/ ulcers all at the same
Time and see if there is any improvement? Equine version of me hiding in my room with the blind down and a bucket next to me I guess!
Time and see if there is any improvement? Equine version of me hiding in my room with the blind down and a bucket next to me I guess!
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
Unfortunately, when i tried him in there the other day, he attacked the companion, my placid little cob
another reason I think he's in pain, he's never been a nasty horse before.He has a dark stone stable and add lib soaked forage.
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Wagtail
Horse servant
I just wish that they could talk. It would save so much suffering. Does he seem happy in himself or does your gut tell you he's in agony?
YorksG
Over the hill and far awa
Behavioural changes, alongside increased agression can, sadly, also be symptomatic of neurological damage. I know that this would be the worst case scenario and what you would least want to be the case, but it does look more and more likely
suzi
Well-Known Member
My father suffers from trigeminal neuralgia and describes the pain ad the worst ever. In early suffering before diagnosis he would often beg us to grt him a gun.
It is now more under control (diagnosed 10 years ago) but he has ups and downs.
I think the problem with translating it into equine diagnosis is that there is often no obvious cause. Eg my dad's scans were clear but they operated anyway to try putting a teflon (I think) plate around part of the nerve. This worked for a while - certainly lessened the attacks considerably for 8-12 months - but they have since worsened but not to the same extent as before.
A lot of the treatment / drugs were trial and error too.....With no rhyme or reason as to what worked and what didn't.
Do you have any option to be referred toa vet with specialist knowledge? My dad's life was easier once he found the right doctor.
It is now more under control (diagnosed 10 years ago) but he has ups and downs.
I think the problem with translating it into equine diagnosis is that there is often no obvious cause. Eg my dad's scans were clear but they operated anyway to try putting a teflon (I think) plate around part of the nerve. This worked for a while - certainly lessened the attacks considerably for 8-12 months - but they have since worsened but not to the same extent as before.
A lot of the treatment / drugs were trial and error too.....With no rhyme or reason as to what worked and what didn't.
Do you have any option to be referred toa vet with specialist knowledge? My dad's life was easier once he found the right doctor.
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
My gut tells me he's a sad horse with a constant headache. His eyes are never at peace, always frowning.
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
I'm so sorry for your father.
I understand that it's exactly the same in horses, very uncertain as to what will help and what won't. I don't feel I can justify the expense of referring him to a specialist when we now know he's been banging his head accidentally for four years, and may cause himself more damage that way at any time. My vet tells me that we would spend a fortune and very likely be no nearer a solution
mynutmeg
Well-Known Member
I'm so sorry for your father.
I understand that it's exactly the same in horses, very uncertain as to what will help and what won't. I don't feel I can justify the expense of referring him to a specialist when we now know he's been banging his head accidentally for four years, and may cause himself more damage that way at any time. My vet tells me that we would spend a fortune and very likely be no nearer a solution
I do wonder if there is something neurological going on and that is what causes him to bang his head as well as causing these symptoms. The other possibilitie is that he is in pain and bangs his head almost deliberatly to try and relieve the pain
mystiandsunny
Well-Known Member
It sounds very much as if you are coming to a conclusion about what you should do, for the best, for him.
palterwell
Well-Known Member
I'm still struggling to log in,I've been thinking about your horse all night and trying to think what helps me with the pain.I have had Trigeminal neuralgia since I was 29 and I'm over 50 now :/ I think that you are probably right that he is bashing his head to try and relieve the pain ,the thing is that when the pain is in your face you just don't know what to do to relieve it.Eating and drinking cause me pain but I forgot to mention that as it is normal for me now.Concussion is another thing which is a trigger.I still think the visor that you have will help him as it will stop the wind in his face.I had an MRI scan but it didn't show anything relevant.
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Polos Mum
Well-Known Member
Not being judgemental but just a thought - if you think he's in that much pain should you leave it a year to make a decision?
While a scan might not find something that can be cured, might it find something that would help you make a clear cut decision about whether to leave him as he is?
While a scan might not find something that can be cured, might it find something that would help you make a clear cut decision about whether to leave him as he is?
spike123
Well-Known Member
a horse at my old yard used to suffer excessive blinking when he needed physiotherapy on a trapped nerve. I can't remember which nerve it was that was affected though but we often wondered if it caused him pain. After treatment he would be fine for a few months before it returned. I don't know if you have had a physio out to him but wonder if it's worth a try.
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
I wonder the same, now.
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
He has mending fractures on both sides of his face, one of which we know damages the trigeminal nerve. Until those fractures have had time to heal, we don't know what's going on. The vet tested his neck flexibility and it was fine.
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
I'm between a rock and a hard place with deciding his future. Time is a great healer and I don't want to act to soon. I already have people accusing me of engineering, or even completely making up, this situation to hide the fact that I am not 'man enough' to ride him. (None of them have ever met him, or me, but it is still very upsetting)
And his symptoms are intermittent. So much for my theory that it is uv triggered, today we have 10/10 sunshine and he is not blinking or frowning unless he is eating. He put his jaw out of alignment with the first fracture, and it looks like eating is, at least, sore, from the frown. Nevertheless, he's eating a lot so it can't be that bad.
My vet says that a scan is very unlikely to tell us anything. If I think he is in serious pain I will have him put down, but at the moment, it looks more like a bit of jaw ache and a background headache with some days much worse than others. I wouldn't want someone to shoot me for that yet, I don't think.
But it's impossible to tell when they can't talk
The fractures should be all healed in a month and I am going to get him professionally backed, to remove any chance that he is upset by me or by memories of this place. If he can't be ridden still, then I will have to decide whether to give him the summer and try again in the autumn, or call it quits on his behalf.
The information I have suggests that trigeminal neuralgia associated with broken bones is unlikely to go away. Also that any increase in exercise will cause a vein that runs directly alongside the nerve in a narrow gap to swell and press on it, potentially causing excruciating pain. There is a lot hanging on whether he can tolerate being ridden in May.
mynutmeg
Well-Known Member
Can I suggest trying the mickel multi bridle when you do start trying to do stuff as it's designed to relive pressure on the trigeminal nerve