Please count your horse's blink rate.

[Spring Feather]

One of my horses has two skull fractures also so I went out and checked her blink rate; it was approx 20 per minute. I checked the others in her herd and they were between 12 and 15 per min.

 

[cptrayes]

Can I suggest trying the mickel multi bridle when you do start trying to do stuff as it's designed to relive pressure on the trigeminal nerve

I will research hiring one immediately MN, that's something I didn't know, though I do know they are very expensive but can be hired.

 

[TrasaM]

a horse at my old yard used to suffer excessive blinking when he needed physiotherapy on a trapped nerve. I can't remember which nerve it was that was affected though but we often wondered if it caused him pain. After treatment he would be fine for a few months before it returned. I don't know if you have had a physio out to him but wonder if it's worth a try.

In the Masterson method the horse blinking as you move the hand slowly over a meridian or pressure point indicates that we've located an area of tension.

So sorry you're having these problems with him CPT..

 

[Tobiano]

Oh CPTrayes, so sorry to read this. You and your horse are going through the mill aren't you. Don't have any advice and didn't see this in time to count blinks today but just sending vibes and hugs for both of you x x

 

[mjcssjw2]

oh dear, don't know about blink rates at all, but I am another that wonders if the fractures are not accidental, I wonder if its like a serious form of head pressing, I know a lady who had very serious health problems and used to hit her leg with a hammer so she had different pain to that which was driving her mad! so pain can do very peculiar things to you.

 

[cptrayes]

oh dear, don't know about blink rates at all, but I am another that wonders if the fractures are not accidental, I wonder if its like a serious form of head pressing, I know a lady who had very serious health problems and used to hit her leg with a hammer so she had different pain to that which was driving her mad! so pain can do very peculiar things to you.

We've seen him do it once and it looked accidental. We're thinking more in terms of a bolt of pain makes him temporarily blind to where walls are. Especially since it's likely to be movement induced as well. He came in very aerated this morning, bullying my little cob, refusing to let him into his stable or go into his own, and blinking at 50+ with a big frown. It was cold overnight and the wind is up a bit, so it's beginning to look as if it's triggered by wind, cold, and raised blood pressure due to movement.

He stood yesterday with his head in my arms while I stroked his face, and he was so gentle and lovely I couldn't help but cry for him. I do wish he could talk and tell me what to do. His eyes are so stressed looking, but would his ears still be forward if he was in that much pain?

 

[Polos Mum]

Is it worth seeing if you can speak to a specialist at one of the university horspitals? A phone consultation shouldn't be much but you sound so worried by his state that waiting a month to see if he can tolerate being ridden just doesn't feel like the right answer.

You don't have to take him miles and spend £thousands to get a expert second opinion.

If he really is in as much pain as you think he might be he could react very badly to being ridden and as it is intermitant will you be confident to ride him if you never get to the bottom of it?

 

[Clannad48]

I can't do a blink count but following on from the fractures I can offer some human results. I have fractured my skull on three occasions. The last time it happened I hadn't realised it - long story - about six months later I started having the most horrendous headaches, I was also blinking a lot - I ended up having MRI scans and this is when I found out about the final fracture. It transpired that each time I had fractured my skull (in almost the same place) the bone remodelling had reduced the 'gap/hole' (I cant remember the proper name) that the nerves/muscles went through on the skull/jaw had narrowed.The proper name for it is Temporomandibular Joint Dysfunction. I ended up with the choice of surgery or taking pain relief. I opted for the tablets and like another poster was given Amitriptyline - this worked for me and now I manage only having to take them occasionally. I was also given some jaw exercises to do.
Massaging the area also helped. If your horse has had several head fractures this may be the case and hopefully will improve with time. Fingers crossed for you.

 

[cptrayes]

Is it worth seeing if you can speak to a specialist at one of the university horspitals? A phone consultation shouldn't be much but you sound so worried by his state that waiting a month to see if he can tolerate being ridden just doesn't feel like the right answer.

You don't have to take him miles and spend £thousands to get a expert second opinion.

If he really is in as much pain as you think he might be he could react very badly to being ridden and as it is intermitant will you be confident to ride him if you never get to the bottom of it?

PM the vet I am using is extremely experienced and I've known him over twenty years. I trust him when he says nothing is likely to be found if we investigate further, and also when he says that even if we were to find something, the chances of being able to do anything about it would be extremely slim. I've done a lot of internet research which backs that up.

From my own experience of trying to ride him once the nerves were coming alive again after the first fracture, he will be unrideable or it will be clear that he should not be being forced to be ridden even if some rodeo rider can stay on him and keep him calm. If it's intermittent, then I'll leave him with the pro long enough, hopefully, to find that out.

I thought we had new symptoms yesterday but I thought it might just be that he was tired. Now it's clear that when he is in a blinking phase, he's also yawning excessively and licking his lips. These are also signs of trigeminal neuralgia.

I've got no doubt now that's what he's got. The question remaining is whether time can cure it, and how long we should let it try.

 

[cptrayes]

I can't do a blink count but following on from the fractures I can offer some human results. I have fractured my skull on three occasions. The last time it happened I hadn't realised it - long story - about six months later I started having the most horrendous headaches, I was also blinking a lot - I ended up having MRI scans and this is when I found out about the final fracture. It transpired that each time I had fractured my skull (in almost the same place) the bone remodelling had reduced the 'gap/hole' (I cant remember the proper name) that the nerves/muscles went through on the skull/jaw had narrowed.The proper name for it is Temporomandibular Joint Dysfunction. I ended up with the choice of surgery or taking pain relief. I opted for the tablets and like another poster was given Amitriptyline - this worked for me and now I manage only having to take them occasionally. I was also given some jaw exercises to do.
Massaging the area also helped. If your horse has had several head fractures this may be the case and hopefully will improve with time. Fingers crossed for you.

I think the lack of space in the hole the nerve and a vein come through is the theory. Both the fractures also disturbed the TMJ. On the first, it put his jaw slightly out of alignment, with the second, I can see the lump forming just below his ear as the more obvious damage to his cheek bone also forms additional bone to brace itself.

 

[Clodagh]

I'm sorry, that sounds awful. Poor boy.

 

[MrsMozart]

We've seen him do it once and it looked accidental. We're thinking more in terms of a bolt of pain makes him temporarily blind to where walls are. Especially since it's likely to be movement induced as well. He came in very aerated this morning, bullying my little cob, refusing to let him into his stable or go into his own, and blinking at 50+ with a big frown. It was cold overnight and the wind is up a bit, so it's beginning to look as if it's triggered by wind, cold, and raised blood pressure due to movement.

He stood yesterday with his head in my arms while I stroked his face, and he was so gentle and lovely I couldn't help but cry for him. I do wish he could talk and tell me what to do. His eyes are so stressed looking, but would his ears still be forward if he was in that much pain?

Oh hunny. Yes, despite the pain ears ears would be forward if he was finding comfort in the situation, i.e you holding him.

 

[hayinamanger]

I am so sorry this is happening to your poor horse, I really hope you get a breakthrough soon.

 

[Prince33Sp4rkle]

Can he not be medicated? At least initially? Not sure if amitriptyline is licensed in horses but there must be an equivalent that can be used and then tapered off to see if he can/ will improve?
Alongside massage and perhaps specific exercises?

 

[cptrayes]

Can he not be medicated? At least initially? Not sure if amitriptyline is licensed in horses but there must be an equivalent that can be used and then tapered off to see if he can/ will improve?
Alongside massage and perhaps specific exercises?

I'm not sure what massage can be done with a jaw that is not being done by him eating? My edt recommended three months eating to sort out the first fracture. He has no mobility problems with his head or neck which would suggest massage was required.

He shouldn't have Bute or steroids as he also gets laminitis and ulcers at the drop of a hat. The blinking day after day is recent, the escalation into yawning was new yesterday, and today he seems to have started to nose flick, which would be an expected progression if there was going to be another. I'll be discussing it with my vet on Tuesday, but trigeminal neuralgia in horses and humans is notoriously difficult to treat.

Since you seem be trying to help, can I take it that you are satisfied that I'm not making this all up to give me an excuse not to ride him?

 

[LadyRascasse]

I had a horse with trigeminal neuralgia, laser acupuncture helped her immensely, not cheap at £120 a go but her quality of life was so much improved after 3 treatments.

 

[Prince33Sp4rkle]

I'm not sure what massage can be done with a jaw that is not being done by him eating? My edt recommended three months eating to sort out the first fracture. He has no mobility problems with his head or neck which would suggest massage was required.

He shouldn't have Bute or steroids as he also gets laminitis and ulcers at the drop of a hat. The blinking day after day is recent, the escalation into yawning was new yesterday, and today he seems to have started to nose flick, which would be an expected progression if there was going to be another. I'll be discussing it with my vet on Tuesday, but trigeminal neuralgia in horses and humans is notoriously difficult to treat.

Since you seem be trying to help, can I take it that you are satisfied that I'm not making this all up to give me an excuse not to ride him?

Notoriously difficult but not impossible so I was simply asking a fairly obvious question.

 

[Polos Mum]

PM the vet I am using is extremely experienced and I've known him over twenty years.

Sorry I wasn't questioning your vet at all just wondered as its not a common condition whether there might be someone out there who has more experience with this specific illness that might be able to give you advice / help confirm the diagnosis (give you other symptoms to look for)/ help nderstand how it might progress etc.
There are some strange specities that people have out there, cluching at straws for you but you never know?

 

[cptrayes]

Notoriously difficult but not impossible so I was simply asking a fairly obvious question.

A question which I took at face value and answered.

Are you going to answer mine?

 

[cptrayes]

I had a horse with trigeminal neuralgia, laser acupuncture helped her immensely, not cheap at £120 a go but her quality of life was so much improved after 3 treatments.

That's good to know, thank you. Was your horse rideable before she got the treatment?

 

[cptrayes]

Sorry I wasn't questioning your vet at all just wondered as its not a common condition whether there might be someone out there who has more experience with this specific illness that might be able to give you advice / help confirm the diagnosis (give you other symptoms to look for)/ help nderstand how it might progress etc.
There are some strange specities that people have out there, cluching at straws for you but you never know?

Leahurst are my local specialists PM. They are renowned for running up bills of many thousands on trigeminal nerve headshakers and still being unable to help them. If he was uv triggered it might be easier to control, but it looks way more complicated than that

No need to apologise, by the way.

 

[Sugar_and_Spice]

Can he not be medicated? At least initially? Not sure if amitriptyline is licensed in horses but there must be an equivalent that can be used and then tapered off to see if he can/ will improve?
Alongside massage and perhaps specific exercises?

CPT you say your horse cant have bute or steroids . Amitriptyline is neither an anti-inflammatory nor a steroid its a nerve pain drug so if there was something similar for horses it might not give the side effects of bute or steroids. Also you said about micklem bridles being expensive, not so much, only 100 pounds last time I looked (a year or two maybe). Riding in a headcollar with a bit attached would also avoid the nerve I think. Good luck anyway whatever you decide to do.

 

[charliejet]

cptrayes would you mind if i PMd you about my horse that has TMJ pain and after reading this thread I counted her blink rate tonight?

 

[mle22]

I had trigeminal neuralgia and agree it was the worst pain ever - mine was cured in two sessions of acupuncture - at the stage doctor was saying only thing they could do was cut the nerve - it was like a miracle! I would strongly suggest trying acupuncture if at all possible. x

 

[cptrayes]

cptrayes would you mind if i PMd you about my horse that has TMJ pain and after reading this thread I counted her blink rate tonight?

I'm happy to help anyone cj, pm away.

 

[cptrayes]

I had trigeminal neuralgia and agree it was the worst pain ever - mine was cured in two sessions of acupuncture - at the stage doctor was saying only thing they could do was cut the nerve - it was like a miracle! I would strongly suggest trying acupuncture if at all possible. x

Thank you, very interesting. Was there a cause identified for your problem. I wonder if it's different with fractures?

 

[cptrayes]

CPT you say your horse cant have bute or steroids . Amitriptyline is neither an anti-inflammatory nor a steroid its a nerve pain drug so if there was something similar for horses it might not give the side effects of bute or steroids. Also you said about micklem bridles being expensive, not so much, only 100 pounds last time I looked (a year or two maybe). Riding in a headcollar with a bit attached would also avoid the nerve I think. Good luck anyway whatever you decide to do.

Amitriptyline is not a painkiller as such, is a tricyclic antidepressant. I have no idea if it's available for horses and I will be talking to my vet on Tuesday.

The cost of a micklem is not an issue, as they can be hired. I actually can't see how it would be any different to use a padded slip head and a bit, so I'm likely to try that first.

 

[YorksG]

I hadn't thought about accupuncture ( I don't know why not, used it on my mare with neck pain and it worked a treat!) It may help you to know if it is face pain or something more deep seated, well worth a try. We know/have used a vet who is also an accupuncturist, pm me if you want his details.

 

[charliejet]

Thank you, have sent a pm with a video link, I think!!
Let me know if it doesnt come through my old laptop is not working very well these days....

 

[mynutmeg]

Amitriptyline is not a painkiller as such, is a tricyclic antidepressant. I have no idea if it's available for horses and I will be talking to my vet on Tuesday.

The cost of a micklem is not an issue, as they can be hired. I actually can't see how it would be any different to use a padded slip head and a bit, so I'm likely to try that first.

The mickelm apparently works because it doesn't have any straps over the trigeminal nerve - something to do with the placement of the straps under the jaw etc means there is no pressure on the nerve.