Please help with my Dominant dog (towards other dogs)

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Roody2

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Hi all,

I hope you can help with a problem I have with my dog in terms of her being dominant/aggressive to other dogs.

This will be a bit long but I know you need as much info as possible!!

She is a 5 year old mongrel (size of a collie but with lab coat/bum, black with white toes), I have had her for 4.5 years. She was re-homed from a rescue centre at 3 months old by my friends mum. She had another dog for company, they had the run of the back garden and frequently legged it off over the fields at the back. They had to be seperated when the farmer said he would shoot them if he saw them in with his sheep again (fair enough). Basically they were a bad influence on each other!!

So I got her at 6 months old. She is mostly loyal but if she see's something she wants to chase (be it another dog or a squirrel) she will be off. Despiote extensive refencing of my garden she still manages to escape every now and then and go on her own little mission!!

I don't know why she has this problem with other dogs but she has always been dominant with them, sometimes trying to start fights, but always going up to them with hackles and tail right up. I have never seen her submit to any other dog apart from my mums collie who she has a great relationship with. When she was younger she used to actively go and pick fights with other dogs, as she has matured it is less frequent.

She has been excellent for the last 4 or 5 months but last week she had a massive bust up with a whippet. In her defence she didn't really go out looking for it - the whippet came up to her (but only to play I think) - but she really went for it, even when it was submitting to her!! I finally managed to seperate them but I am really concerned that had I not been there she would have done some serious damage or (heaven forbid) even killed it.

I take her to training classes and agility to keep her occupied and tuned in, I also try not to walk her in areas where there are lots of other dogs, and/or at less sociable times of day.

So, my question to you - have any of you experienced this with your dogs, do you know how to train her out of it or was it a case of just managing it?
Any ideas gratefully received!!!
 
I have the same with my bulldog to the point were i have to take him out late at night t avoid other dogs and if he goes out in the day he isnt allowed off his lead and i warn other owners if there dogs come near. I would ideally like to muzzle him but he gets far to excited when out and makes himself sick if other dogs are round. I would also love to take him to training classes but it really would be more hassle than its worth
 
I've got a reactive dog, also a rescue. firstly I just wouldn't take her close to other dogs, work out what the distance is for her not to react when she sees another dog (even staring, a look is fine) and begin your training from there.
There are various ways to tackle it but I would tbh seek out a behaviourist in your area so they can see how she is (its difficult to know really with just a description!)

With my dog, I was (trying!) to train an automatic cue to look at me when he sees another dog. If you wanted to do that then obviously start at home and then the garden, and then add distractions etc, then go to the park and use it at his critical distance when another dog it about.
I went to a handling workshop a few months ago and was given totally different advice which has been working well actually. PM me if you want me to go into detail I could waffle on for forever about these things :)

Also - dont let your dog off lead! perhaps buy a harness and a long line and keep her on that if you're going to doggy parks? I've got a 15m line for my dog. pain in the ass but at least I know he wont piss off!
 
Good advice from Stargirl, all of which I agree with - please do keep up the training classes and if poss seek out someone used to working with dog-aggressive dogs.

At this stage I would work on her focus - she isn't paying attention, she isn't watching you you won't be able to do anything with her.

I am copying and pasting this because I am lazy and I am tired but the idea is:

You want this ball ? - Watch me.

You want this treat? Watch me.

You want this tug? Watch me.

You want to play the tug of war? Watch me.

You want your food bowl? Watch me.

You want to get out of the crate? Watch me.

You want to go for a walk? Watch me.

You want to get out of the car? Watch me.

You want to do some training? Watch me.

You want me to open this door,so you can pass through? Watch me.

And slowly add in distractions. The longer you can hold her gaze, the bigger the reward. I would do this training on an empty stomach with high value treats like liver or cheese so she has to work for her food (or a ball if that is what drives her)

Once you have focus, training everything else is so much more easy.

How are you reprimanding her or getting her attention back of other dogs right now?
 
Thanks for those replies so far!!

When she goes up to other dogs I have been guaging her reaction as to what I do - you know when you can 'tell' if dogs are going to clash or not?!! If I think a dog is a risk then I will instantly change direction and use higer pitched friendly 'come' commands to try to distract her and just get her away, she is getting better at coming back to me away from other dogs.
If I think the meeting of the two dogs will just be a bum sniff and nothing else I praise her when she is just sniffing and keep going in the direction we were originally going, encouraging her to come along with me. Mostly this has really been working for the last 4 to 5 months.

With the whippet the other day I had thought it would be a problem, I put her back on lead when we initially saw the whippet. We stopped to have a chat with the owner and she had a sniff with the other dog but looked a bit unhappy with it. I kept her on lead until we were enough distance for me to know she wouldn't go back to the whippet, BUT, unfortunately the whippet came haring back up to us, I guess Lily saw this as a threat hence the reaction - anyone agree?

Her reprimand was a sharp smack as I was seperating the two dogs and then a good long down stay, followed by 10 minutes of heel work and more stays/waits before I let her run free again.
 
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I can also vouch for focus training being the key. Mine isn't aggressive but fixates on other dogs, wanting to approach every dog she sees to play even if it's not appropriate (old cranky dog on a lead, truly aggressive dog, ignoring my commands and choking herself trying to get at a really exciting dog).

She's not food or toy motivated so I started by asking her to sit and wait before I opened the back door - cue lots of whining and circling until she worked out that eye contact = being let out. This carried over to being taken to the park, taken off the short lead and clipped on to the long line - you want to run on the long line? Look at me, then I'll let you have freedom.

I also taught a few basic 'tricks', beg, paw etc. as well as the standard sit and down and in conjunction with something high value like chicken or cheese going through the trick repertoire increases the time that she will focus on me, allowing the exciting dog to pass by in the background. Be prepared to look like a twerp, running around in the park waving bits of meat and receiving high-fives from your dog, all so the woman with the manic off-lead spaniel that always riles up your dog can pass by unmolested. :p

If you can't guarantee at this point that your dog won't approach other dogs, given the nature of past encounters, it would be advisable to keep her on a lead or long line for the time being.
 
No worries, sounds sensible and a bit like my fella, I put a year of work into him, it will be an ongoing process and he will never be perfect but we're heading in the right direction.

Had a similar thing last week, went in for a bum sniff and I could tell he was going to blow to I moved him on and as I did he barked and bared his teeth so he got a rocket.
With another dog a day later he was fine so I just have to watch him. I used to keep him away from all other dogs, it is the wrong thing to do, heightens frustration and is a bit unfair IMO.

Remember to keep yourself calm as any tension (oh ****, there's another dog!!!) will filter down to her and make her more likely to go on the attack.
 
Yep agree with what else has been said!
As for the reaction to the whippet - a dog legging it over like that can be seen as very rude by other dogs! so in a way her reaction doesn't surprise me. Whippet should've been on the lead!
Althouuugh can I just point out you said she got a sharp smack? Given she would be quite revved up already if you do this then she may start getting worse when you come over or approach if she gets herself into a similar situation like that (more negative association with you coming near) especially if she is not the type of dog to back off. I'm not saying you beat the **** out of her obviously! but thought I'd mention it :)
 
CaveCanem said:
I used to keep him away from all other dogs, it is the wrong thing to do, heightens frustration and is a bit unfair IMO.
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That's precisely what I thought - I guess her problems stem partially from poor socialisation as a puppy, so I want her to learn to socialise in a more acceptable way without endangering all the local dogs!!!

Absolutely grateful for the help so far, and its good to hear 3 of you saying basically the same thing. Ironically the 'watch me' command was the first thing we learnt when I took her to puppy class all those years ago but I had totally forgotten about it until now!!

I've accepted she's never going to be 100% dog friendly but I hope she can get better than the 60% she is now!!
 
stargirl88 said:
Given she would be quite revved up already if you do this then she may start getting worse when you come over or approach if she gets herself into a similar situation like that (more negative association with you coming near)
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True point, she did move away from me 3 or 4 times before I managed to get in for the smack and split up, its like she know's she is doing wrong and she is going to get told off but she can't stop herself immediately - a bit Jeckyll and Hyde type behaviour.

Its a tough one to choose what to do really, I never smack her after the event as that really is negative and she wouldn't associate it with being told off for the attack, more like being told off for stopping. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!!!!

She's a complete food pig so I will make sure I carry the fromage with me in future all the time for distractions and training.
 
I've also seen people receive an unintentional bite when correcting a dog that way - dog is already het up, gets smacked, flinches and snaps automatically - so do be careful if the dog's blood is up and she's likely to be reactive.
 
I think we need to organise more regular meet-ups for all the newbies and new puppies on here, there'd never be any problems with socialising the dogs with a chorus of about 20 ah-AHs! every time someone started something. :p
 
Where in the country are you? I know a fab behaviourist down south!

Great advice here so far don't have anything to add apart from please keep her on the leash!
 
I issue verbal and at the same time lift B off his front feed for a few seconds by the collar (chain usually in a dead position so not the choke), seems to snap him out of it and make it easier to remove him from the situation, then reward when calm. I know a lot of people won't like that but it is exactly how dogs are removed from a bite sleeve when they are riled up...if you tried to get in between them and the sleeve or start boxing their ears, you would get a bite as they are already hyped.
 
I'll be brutally honest here, I'm not going to keep her on the lead all the time. If I see a potential situation I will get her back to me and put her on lead, but they are few and far between these days.
 
blackcob said:
I think we need to organise more regular meet-ups for all the newbies and new puppies on here, there'd never be any problems with socialising the dogs with a chorus of about 20 ah-AHs! every time someone started something. :p
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Great idea, Lil would probably be so shell shocked being surrounded by all those dogs and competent handlers that she would behave like a saint!!!
 
In this instance when a dog is reacting in this way, you first and foremost need to take the dominant role, the dog needs to learn there is a consiquence for an action, I have a very dominant bull x lurcher who nearly killed a dog in the local park in her old home, this dog had some sheer determination, and took me a year to get to to the point she will now leave a dog with one "leave it" and she is rarely on lead, before she would have been off like a bullet, and any approaching dog would have been mince meat, she was corrected very strongly from me via a check chain, I believe she was never corrected or reprimanded in her life, instead they tried the focus and treats but with some dogs it simply will not work, they are so fixated and focused it needs to be snapped out with a sharp shock, not from the hand as that takes far to long and will not give control over another dog approaching as you will be otherwise stressed:D and occupied dishing out a smack, I prefer "leave it", and a sharp check then if you can keep control enough for the dog in question to get close you can get there, if you have no control and they reach each other at speed, you will get a full on fight, as you say in certain breeds such as thin skinned whippet, she could have caused alot of damage, I tend to flood any dogs I get in with aggression issues, but I make sure the aggressor is no match for the flooding dogs where possible, and use very well socialised and calm dogs, or where minimal damage would be inflicted if they do strike, when flooding you dont get the same fixation as there are far to many to fixate on, if the dog steps out of line and becomes over selous, it's checked and given "leave it" which is then used to warn the dog when out on a walk.
Re the praising, believe it or not to praise a dog for not showing aggression or indeed soemething as sinsister as stroking the other dog or pattting your own can start an almighty war, it's best to stay calm and neutral in your movement.
It's obs alot harder to work with your dog when you have others approaching in what your dog deems a threatening manor, so ideally if you can, it's best to meet people on lead but not so the dogs meet facing, jsut walk on as you would walk your dog usually and walk then side by side on yours and the other owners opposite leg, then proceed to let off lead when you are well into the walk with no fuss, alot of people tend to let the dogs sniff each other head on, which again can be presented as a challenge, if a fight then breaks the owner will try to reel the dog in at lightening speed or grab the dog, this will almost certainly heighten aggression.

So, if treats dont work and she is pretty reactive then you must be firm in your handling, you are the only one that can control this type of situation when you are out, so be firm and confident and try to stop the escaping altogether, this will not help.
Avoidance is not great but as CC suggests sometimes when a situation is about to arise that you will have little means of control, i.e another dog, you simply have to avoid, but try and fins situations you can control.
It's not ideal giving advice re aggession over a forum (esp as no one can see exactly how she/you react in these situations), so a behaviourist may be a the way to go.
 
CAYLA said:
with some dogs it simply will not work, they are so fixated and focused it needs to be snapped out with a sharp shock, not from the hand as that takes far to long and will not give control over another dog approaching as you will be otherwise stressed:D and occupied dishing out a smack, I prefer "leave it", and a sharp check then if you can keep control enough for the dog in question to get close you can get there, .
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So did you keep your dog on a normal lead or did you have a long lead? I'm just trying to guage the logistics of the set-up on the choke chain.

She walks well on a lead but I'd rather not have her on a choke chain the whole walk if not needed. Would you take two leads - one on a normal collar or harness and the other on the choke?
 
If long lining I would use a harness and have a normal collar/chain and lead as well for close work.

You can set a choke to the dead ring so it is just like any normal collar and then clip it live if you see another dog coming.
This is what I do.
You can also get a training lead with a clip on each end, one to a flat collar and the other to a live choke.
 
I'm not a big choke chain fan, If the dog is lunging and barking then you're too close (obviously). when I first started training it was with an old-school trainer who had us all check the dogs to heal if they lunge forward.... fact, if I check my current dog who has issues he goes into avoidance, and yes he would walk how I want him to walk & but he wouldn't be engaging with me, he would just be coping with it & despite looking like he was fine he would just actually be switching off.....
 
Normal lead, I would never use a long line in cases of aggression, I only use longline for recall issues.
As suggested you can set the chain to lock, i.e place the lead on both loops of the chain, but if your dog does not pull and is good on lead then she wont pull against it, so you should not have any issues, I use a good training lead or a leather lead, your walking tools say alot for handling skills, as in a **** lead will only hinder.
Use the chain correctly, you are best to have the dog on yourleft leg and lead in your right and make sure the chain is running against to top of the metal ring of the chain and not against the bottom, otherwise you have ot on the wrong way, a check, is simply that, a quick short check and release, your dog should not be pulling against the chain at all times, it should be slack.
 
stargirl88 said:
I'm not a big choke chain fan, If the dog is lunging and barking then you're too close (obviously). when I first started training it was with an old-school trainer who had us all check the dogs to heal if they lunge forward.... fact, if I check my current dog who has issues he goes into avoidance, and yes he would walk how I want him to walk & but he wouldn't be engaging with me, he would just be coping with it & despite looking like he was fine he would just actually be switching off.....
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My own dogs are all on slip leads, but they dont pull and they do not go for other dogs, if im working with an aggressive dog, I give a check at the point of interest, they never get to the lunging stage, I always make sure I have focus too, I never have a dog that switches off, my own dog will look for guidance to avoid reprimand, this is why it's very hard to explain different training techniques on a forum, everyone has different methods and some will work better for some than others, it' really always best to have a demonstration in person, even the check chain can be used wrong.
My greatest training tool is my gob:rolleyes: not many dogs have ever even been reprimanded by use of a different tone of voice, it works wonders:)
 
Indeed, I have only ever really seen check chains poorly used, and various people have mentioned to me the damage it can do to windpipes etc etc.... I wouldn't write it off completely but it would be my last resort..
you're right, different things work for different people (and dogs)!
 
stargirl88 said:
Indeed, I have only ever really seen check chains poorly used, and various people have mentioned to me the damage it can do to windpipes etc etc.... I wouldn't write it off completely but it would be my last resort..
you're right, different things work for different people (and dogs)!
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Yep indeedy

Used correctly they are fab, and need not be prolonged in use if owner does not wish to as they are effective enough to work as they should in a short space of time,
I have heard but never seen the damage from choke chains, I have seen damage via the collar and via harness at the arm pit (nasty) and a near lost eye ball from a halti but again those tools can be abused too.
non of mine have choke chain on but if they needed one, I dont have any issues with them at all.
 
Baaaaaa! Mine are both walked in chains which are clipped to the dead ring and put on the live ring if and when needed.
I have also heard about damage to the wind pipe but have never personally come across it myself, and most of the people I know use chokes and/or slip collars and leads.

True, there are people who put them on upside down, leave them lying around the base of the neck where they are both useless and can cause more harm, use ones so big you could lock up a bike with them, and let their dogs haul on them so they never learn the difference between a tight line and a slack one (which is the entire point of the device!) but used properly I think they are a good tool. And yes, I have stopped people in the street and taken and rearranged them for people :o
 
There used to be a trend years ago for showing GSDs on very fine choke chains, fitted right up under the ear. I heard of more than one dog with a damaged windpipe through these collars. I use a large link check chain for my lot, but as Cayla says, only ever need a quick check and then it is loose again.
 
Maybe I'm just soft ;) I've never needed to use one and probably wouldn't still, but I'm not totally closed minded about it!
 
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