Please read. RE: Andy's Weight and Management

Kallibear, no matter how hard to try to push your point all it is doing is making you look unknowledgeable. The horse is underweight; not emaciated, not horrific but yes it is underweight. 350kgs is nowhere near the correct weight for this horse.
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You're saying almost the same thing I've been?? The horse is a little thin but not terrible. He would do with a little more condition and then muscle up. It's not going to drop dead from him condition and it's not doing him any harm, esp as he's slowly gaining weight as he should be. It doesn't look asthetically pleasing to some but that's tough and it certainly doesn't deserve the fuss it's caused.

350kg is meaningless unless she's had him on a weight bridge. He would well measure 350kg on the weighttape but it's an abitary measurement: my 14.2 (almost) apparently weights 590kg on the weight tape. I happen to know (from being at the vets) that he weights 450kg.
 
Kallibear said:
Agreed. It's really rather worrying that so many people think a lean horse is really underweight :eek: It seems most horse owners now a days have lost sight of the correct weight for a horse.

Andy is lean and lacks muscle. He is NOT emaciated nor severely underweight. He is much closer to his perfect weight that a vast majoirity of the horses, belonging to those comdeming him, are in the opposite direction!

His conformation make him look worse than he is but those proffessing so much knowledge as to ridicule koko should know that! Put your hand over his hindquarters(hiding his swayback) and the front end is a lacking a little muscle but not particularly skinny.



It's interesting that you should use this picture as an example of how 'underweight' Andy is ;) : since he's pretty close to the same condition. Due to his sway back you need to assess the two halfs seperately but you'll see his front end is a similar condition and his back end's not far off.

Koko - there is not reason why he shouldn't be doing a reasonable amount fo work, esp if he's slowly putting weight on at the same time: he hasn't got much to go, then it's just muscling up. And there's also no reason he shouldn't be going out to little fun comps if he enjoys it and isn't one of those horses that stresses the weight off. He obviously enjoys it, you obviously enjoy it and so it's only those who like to see rounded, plump horses who get upset and aren't happy ;) I would be a little embarassed about his clip :p but I wouldn't be to embrassed about his weight.
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this exactly, I thought I must be looking at different pics to everyone else tbh, having bought several severely emaciated horses and brought back to health I was expecting far worse from some of the comments. Whatever you are doing Koko is working, he is steadily putting weight on and his muscle will build with work. I do think that people get used to looking at fat horses and think that is the norm! He is gorgeous Koko and come summer will look fantastic!
 
Kallibear said:
You're saying almost the same thing I've been?? The horse is a little thin but not terrible. He would do with a little more condition and then muscle up. It's not going to drop dead from him condition and it's not doing him any harm, esp as he's slowly gaining weight as he should be. It doesn't look asthetically pleasing to some but that's tough and it certainly doesn't deserve the fuss it's caused.
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Yes we both believe the horse is thin and underweight however you have appeared condescending and patronizing in some of your replies.

350kg is meaningless unless she's had him on a weight bridge. He would well measure 350kg on the weighttape but it's an abitary measurement: my 14.2 (almost) apparently weights 590kg on the weight tape. I happen to know (from being at the vets) that he weights 450kg.
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This I completely agree with. I also use weight-tapes and I am also very lucky to live just a hop, skip and a jump away from a weighbridge, which I do use quite regularly. My findings with ALL of my horses who have been taken for a visit to this weighbridge has been the the weight-tape is always way above the true weight. So if my experience, and your experience is this, where weigh bridges are concerned, then that would worry me even more with Kokos horse as it would imply that her horse could be significantly less than 350kgs.
 
i do think he is underweight as you should be able to feel but not see his ribs and in the photo you can see his ribs. however health wise it is better to be a little under weight than overweight and it is often easier to put the weight on than to get it off!

there are ways of saying things in a nice way and if she has only just got the horse then it is the previous owners' fault the horse is in this condition not hers!

He is lacking muscle and it is probably not a good idea to do too much too quick as it will be hard work for him if he does not have the muscle in the correct places and I would say the same for a horse that was too fat too. If he has been out of work for months then normally when bringing a horse back into work you start off with gentle walking for a few weeks and build up the work slowly and perhaps not jumping for a couple of months however not everyone knows this or does things the same way.

Inexperience should not condemned in the same way as deliberate neglect when you know better. No-one is born perfect and we all learn from our mistakes and if the instructors and vets are saying the amount of work being done is acceptable then most people would not question that as they are meant to be the experts so I can understand why you are working him to the extent you are and are surprised by the responses.
 
sussexbythesea said:
I didn't say that I got my only knowledge from this forum as a matter of fact I said "AND I am sure I have read on this forum" - I did try to find some actual useful scientifically factual info on the internet but couldn't get past all the sites for how to lose weight or do body building.

I am pretty sure I have read about this before and I did come across some references in body -building about not to do too much aerobic exercise because it can reduce muscle but you are right I would like to refer to something more substantiated. I am sure there is someone on this forum who has this knowledge who has commented on similar discussions before.
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I'd be interested to hear from anybody who thinks they can substantiate this, as I too had a good search online and in nutrition and exercise phys books, and can't find anything to suggest that horses use muscle tissue for energy production. It seems to be that the digestion of food provides glucose and fats, which are stored in the muscles, liver, and as adipose tissue. The body will use glucose and fat from stores in the muscles first, then I believe from the blood stream (i.e. digested material which hasn't made it into stores yet) and then use fat from adipose tissue. I can't find any reference to the use of muscle protein to produce energy during aerobic exercise (in horses); I would tentatively conclude that once muscle, liver and adipose tissue stores run out, the horse is fatigued and unable to continue.

I can see the references in the body building texts you're talking about: however they seem to be self-disproving, half of them claiming it and half claiming its distortion of fact or just plain lies.

Hmm.

I remember learning about horses using muscle tissue in order to survive in starvation cases, however those horses were not getting sufficient energy from their diet - the fact that the OP says her horse has put on weight, leads me to believe that this probably isn't the case for her horse at the moment. Plus I seem to remember that it was very inefficient method of ATP production, so I can't imagine a horse exercising at the top end of aerobic exercise threshold would be able to sustain energy from this method of production for more than a few seconds. :confused:
 
AliceFlapjack said:
Ditto - My 14.1 weighs approx 415kg.
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Well my 15 1hh tb x is only 445kg at his optimum weight ;) - weigh-bridged.

Its going to depend on the build of the horse obviously, they are all different.

And koko, all I have to say is your doing nothing wrong so don't beat yourself up! :) You know he has weight issues and you are addressing them. You admitted you made a mistake but it was hardly a life threatening one, so just relax and ignore all the people on here who think they are the absolute best thing since sliced bread and just listen to the nice genuine suggestions! :D

As for nasty pm's there is simply no excuse what-so-ever and I hope said people are totally embarrassed.
 
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Naturally said:
I'd be interested to hear from anybody who thinks they can substantiate this, as I too had a good search online and in nutrition and exercise phys books, and can't find anything to suggest that horses use muscle tissue for energy production. It seems to be that the digestion of food provides glucose and fats, which are stored in the muscles, liver, and as adipose tissue. The body will use glucose and fat from stores in the muscles first, then I believe from the blood stream (i.e. digested material which hasn't made it into stores yet) and then use fat from adipose tissue. I can't find any reference to the use of muscle protein to produce energy during aerobic exercise (in horses); I would tentatively conclude that once muscle, liver and adipose tissue stores run out, the horse is fatigued and unable to continue.

I can see the references in the body building texts you're talking about: however they seem to be self-disproving, half of them claiming it and half claiming its distortion of fact or just plain lies.

Hmm.

I remember learning about horses using muscle tissue in order to survive in starvation cases, however those horses were not getting sufficient energy from their diet - the fact that the OP says her horse has put on weight, leads me to believe that this probably isn't the case for her horse at the moment. Plus I seem to remember that it was very inefficient method of ATP production, so I can't imagine a horse exercising at the top end of aerobic exercise threshold would be able to sustain energy from this method of production for more than a few seconds. :confused:
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Bingo naturally. Points to you for your googling skills :D
 
Kokopelli - I didn't reply to the other thread but do feel the need to now.
Firstly dont let those who have an unfortuneate way of saying things get to you. You are not guilty of abuse etc, you simply made an error of judgement which we can all do at times.
Yes I do agree your lad should not be out competing yet but dont agree you should stop riding him completely. You just need to be sure he is taking in more energy than he is using. If this is carefully managed his condition will improve rapidly.
Below are some pics of my last horse. Very poor when I got him. I didn't work him at all for the first week then slowly built up from schooling in walk through trot then canter allowing him to muscle up as we went.
I'm not going to offer feeding advice, you've had plenty of that already but if you want to know what I fed my lad then feel free to PM me.

When I first got him :eek:
arrival1.jpg

arrival2.jpg


2 weeks later
2weeks1.jpg

2weeks2.jpg


More intensive work after 6 weeks
Day45.jpg

Day42.jpg


His first comp 3 months after getting him
img004.jpg
 
I don't think people realise how short a time you've owned him, although thats no excuse. You are doing really well and doing the best you can and have as you have listed had advice from professionals.

Don't listen to the horrible comments, carry on as you are, I look forward to seeing some pics in another month or so and seeing the difference, it takes time and you are doing it the correct way, slowly and not chopping and changing him.

There are ways of saying things, unfortunately some people don't have the knack and go in like a bull in a china shop, there really is no need to be nasty, if you have something to say, some advice to offer then say it in a nice way.
 
Helloo,

I'm not going to get involved in the weight debate as it sounds as though you are doing a great job increasing his feed slowly! Just wanted to offer some advise workwise to help build muscle! Sway backed or not as you know every horse needs a good top line of muscle to ensure they can carry our weight! If I were you I would be riding out mostly in walk and in straight lines if I was going to do any faster work I would make sure it was in straight lines for now! Then I would be long lining over poles encouraging him to go long and low! Also if poss I would be feeding everything from the floor to encourage him to stretch down!
Obviously I'm sure you know that he will find it near impossible to work in a true outline until he builds up muscle across his back which will enable him to lift through his abdominals and step through from behind!

Good luck with him and well done it sounds like you are taking advice from lots if professionals! Can't wait to see your comp reports in the summer! :-)
 
Kokokopelli has been on the forum for a fair time,she has only recently lost her horse of a lifetime. I have followed her story, she is a very knowledgeable and kind person and the unpleasantness regarding her new acquisition is unbelievable, none of us are perfect by a long way so if the bitchy types have nothing decent to say then shut up!!!
 
I can't believe people sent you nasty emails. :mad: Try not to get upset, there is always people who know everything. :rolleyes:

Enjoy Andy and enjoy even more in the summer when you can post pictures of a beautiful fit and shiney horse knowing you made him into that. :D
 
Naturally said:
I'd be interested to hear from anybody who thinks they can substantiate this, as I too had a good search online and in nutrition and exercise phys books, and can't find anything to suggest that horses use muscle tissue for energy production. It seems to be that the digestion of food provides glucose and fats, which are stored in the muscles, liver, and as adipose tissue. The body will use glucose and fat from stores in the muscles first, then I believe from the blood stream (i.e. digested material which hasn't made it into stores yet) and then use fat from adipose tissue. I can't find any reference to the use of muscle protein to produce energy during aerobic exercise (in horses); I would tentatively conclude that once muscle, liver and adipose tissue stores run out, the horse is fatigued and unable to continue.

I can see the references in the body building texts you're talking about: however they seem to be self-disproving, half of them claiming it and half claiming its distortion of fact or just plain lies.

Hmm.

I remember learning about horses using muscle tissue in order to survive in starvation cases, however those horses were not getting sufficient energy from their diet - the fact that the OP says her horse has put on weight, leads me to believe that this probably isn't the case for her horse at the moment. Plus I seem to remember that it was very inefficient method of ATP production, so I can't imagine a horse exercising at the top end of aerobic exercise threshold would be able to sustain energy from this method of production for more than a few seconds. :confused:
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I actually clicked onto this thread totally by mistake and don't want to comment as don't know any background etc.

But there is a thing on wiki (if its to be believed taking half the rubbish that is on it) which says

"Exercise is a stressor and the stresses of exercise have a catabolic effect on the body—contractile proteins within muscles are consumed for energy"

But even if true I'd think it would need to be extreme case of over exercise and its not related directly to horses so who knows.
 
i'm kind of scared to say anything in case people think i'm having a go but i am most definately not having a go, i think it's a brave move taking on a horse that is underweight as it does look (to outsiders) that the horse is skinny because of you, not the previous owner or illness!

i know someone who was anorexic, she had a horse and if the horse had the slightest bit of grass belly (in spring/summer) she would panic and stop feeding the horse altogether, she competed and people were saying how wonderful her horse looked, in fact the horse looked like a hat rack and these people were biatching about the owner behind her back, it seemed that they were too scared to say anything to her face. the poor horse is still stick thin and she still thinks it's fat.

example 2......a 15yr old girl was too lazy to feed and water her horses that 2 of them collapsed in the field, i leant her my stables for them and said they could stay as long as needed, she was so lazy she wouldn't walk the 5 mins down to the yard to see to them so took them back in the middle of winter to a bare field and the one had to be pts, post mortem showed the horse had no food or water. it's people like this that really pee me off.

when i got my pony she was so severely underweight that a few people thought she had grass sickness, over the following months she gained weight at a good rate, is now a healthy girl and that's just because we gave her time to gain the weight, i had people telling me to feed constantly so that she gains the weight quicker, wrong! it's like the old saying slow and steady wins the race! ;)

i guess what i'm saying is that you are a caring owner (from what i've read) and you know how to look after your horses, you also know that it's going to be a long process and not a quick fix. for now though i'd lay off the comps and ride with an exercise sheet, but be proud that you've managed to help him gain some weight already.

hope i've made some kind of sense! lol
 
Well done for all your hard work and for giving him a new start in life. I did post about his weight in both your threads and it wasnt meant to upset you and i hope it wasnt my comments that did, it was purely what i would be doing if he was mine. I also think you were maybe being a bit risky putting up thoses pictures competing as people do pick up on this as its only a snippet.
However you have spoken to all the right people and he is obviously improving showing you do very much care about him, and it is hard putting weight on a TB never mind getting a skinny one during winter!! I am sure once spring arrives and he can pig out on grass he will soon pile it on.
 
Each person has said he is underweight and lacking muscle BUT they said there is no reason why he should not be worked,
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And this is absolutely true. However the type of work you do is important.


Now if you would like to comment on how I am a 'cruel' owner and should be 'emabarased' of my pride and joy do it here, or if you would like to offer some helpful advice also post here
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I don't think you are a cruel owner at all, )just perhaps a little un-educated) - and I'm sorry if others have said that to you.

Personally if he were mine I would not be competing him until the spring - until his condition (and therefore his health) is improved. Feed companies will give you some really useful advice on what to feed and it's well worth giving them a buzz. Or perhaps TGM on here - who is so knowledgeable about feeding.

He doesn't look like a horse that has been in work for 3 months - or if he has his management has been very poor. His coat is a good indicator of his lack of general condition.

He looks like a super, genuine horse. And I can perfectly understand why he's your pride and joy. All our animals deserve the best that we can give them - and if that means putting our personal ambitions on hold until they are ready for the job we want them to do, then so be it. That is the position I think you are in with Andy - and despite any cruel remarks that may have been made - I hope you listen to the majority who say take it easy, steady, sensibly and considerately with him.
 
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I can't believe you got so upset! You know what some of the people on here are like and the whole point is that it is a forum for people to express their opinions, that said, shame on anyone who pm'd you to be horrid, clearly they were too nasty to want their comments seen by others meaning they knew the comments would upset you.

Andy is thin. You know this. He is also perky looking and his coat, eyes etc look bright and shiny. I have seen far worse at competitions. I would be taking it relatively easy but you are absolutley right, he won't build muscle without work, and his weight gain that you posted looks good so long as he can keep it up.

You need to learn whose opinions to take on board and what to take with a pinch of salt. Personally all the showing people I know have what to me are obese horses but that is deliberate as they like them big in the ring???? I have serious health concerns for 1 or2 but they come back with high placings everytime they go out.

People have different veiws on things. You know you are doing well by Andy and most of the rest of us can see that so don't beat yourself up about it, just keep enjoying and pampering your boy, sensibly as you have been.
 
JunoXV said:
Kokopelli - I didn't reply to the other thread but do feel the need to now.
Firstly dont let those who have an unfortuneate way of saying things get to you. You are not guilty of abuse etc, you simply made an error of judgement which we can all do at times.
Yes I do agree your lad should not be out competing yet but dont agree you should stop riding him completely. You just need to be sure he is taking in more energy than he is using. If this is carefully managed his condition will improve rapidly.
Below are some pics of my last horse. Very poor when I got him. I didn't work him at all for the first week then slowly built up from schooling in walk through trot then canter allowing him to muscle up as we went.
I'm not going to offer feeding advice, you've had plenty of that already but if you want to know what I fed my lad then feel free to PM me.
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Juno's post just goes to show what good management can achieve - in a relatively short period of time.

Juno - he's an absolute credit to you.
 
Koko, I don't post much but have been around horses for about 40 years now. It is obvious that you have done everything correctly. If there was a problem I am sure your vet or instructor (the ones you should be listening too) would have told you.

I had a lovely tb boy once a long time ago who looked like your boy. I was concerned about his weight and went through months of tests etc with vets who concluded that he was just a skinny horse, naturally. He was well fed and I kept him very fit and he hunted 3 times a week and went to dressage and xc and show jumping. He always had plenty of 'go' in him. People who didn't know Murphy always commented on his weight but I knew I had done everything and he was fine so I had to learn to shut my ears. Those who did know him and me knew he was fit and well and happy.

So just keep listening to the professionals you have around you and those ppl that know you. Your boy will more than likely pick up a bit in spring and with plenty of hay and good feed and a good exercise routine he will be happy and healthy.

Good luck with him. Enjoy him and don't let others spoil it for you x.
 
As an aside, I wonder if you are keeping him warm enough? He did look as if he may have been more covered prior to clipping (although a wooly coat can be deceptive) - but it may be another thing to consider.
 
I haven't read any replies except your OP and I don't know the full story at all so forgive me if I sound rude, it's not intended. I also don't know the height, age or 'correct' weight he should be and what work you have him in but having rescued many underweight horses in the past, I feel I have some knowledge of the work and effort it takes to get something back to proper weight. It's not only feeding, but time plays a huge part too; you must give them time to adapt properly.

If the horse is underweight, then IMHO, you shouldn't be riding him at all until he has built his weight back on. By riding him you are using up valuable energy which should be going into repairing the lost weight so it is going to take so much longer beside which, his body won't be in any condition to carry you. He needs time to build up with good grub, grazing and care (which I'm sure you're giving him anyway) but I'm very surprised that knowledgeable people are giving you the go ahead to ride him until he is at a decent weight; that's very counter productive IME.

Good luck with him.
 
Sounds like you’ve had it a bit rough kokopelli!! I spotted your SJ post the other day and thought.. “oh dear” because I knew what was going to come!!

I must admit though I did look at the pics and my immediate thoughts were how poor he was, you can’t really be surprised by peoples reaction – you’ve been around on HHO for a while haven’t you?? I’ve seen people kick off over much less! I think you either have to toughen up or just be very careful what you put on here – especially pics.
 
rosiefronfelen said:
Kokokopelli has been on the forum for a fair time,she has only recently lost her horse of a lifetime. I have followed her story, she is a very knowledgeable and kind person and the unpleasantness regarding her new acquisition is unbelievable, none of us are perfect by a long way so if the bitchy types have nothing decent to say then shut up!!!
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Rosie, you are absolutely right!

K - you know how I feel on the subject, for people to be sending you nasty PM's and people saying you should be embarrassed are horrible.
I doubt some of these people would say it to you in real life, but because online they are "anonymous" they spout all sorts of bitchiness.

Some good advice from other people on this post about feeding and how to work him if you can rifle through all the bitchiness :)
 
I'm not gonna comment on the issue of his condition because harsh comments get people nowhere except make the poor OP feel awful.

I had a similar issue with my cob when he came up as a youngster, very underweight, ribs showing and lacking topline. I think the main key points for progress are analysing his diet, ensuring his daily needs are met in the way of proteins, carbs fats etc

Proteins are the building blocks of the horse, these are needed for growth, repair especially muscle build up, It is however important to ensure its the correct amount of protein because any extra will just come out the other end. Proteins essentially come from amino acids and alfa-a is good source of this as is haylage. Your horse only essentially needs 8-10% proteins in his diet, but i'd probably suggest slightly more for an underweight horse that lacks muscle.

Carbohydrates are the main energy source, lack of carbs will cause the body to go into catabolism, leaving the horse weak and the body will start to use muscle as an energy source rather than use the body fat. Therefore your horse is going to put on weight but rather than muscle weight it will be essentially fat. Grass, grain and hay is a source of carbs, so access to turnout is essential with good grazing. I'd probably suggest barley at first because oats can be very "heating"

Fats are necessary in the equine diet to absorb fat-soluble vitamins and provide linoleic acid, the essential fatty acid.This adds to the energy density of the horse but it is important not to go over the 8-10% mark as a horse cannot digest fat and use it in large amounts.

Finally comes vitamins and minerals. Minerals are responsible for maintaining the skeletal and muscular systems. Horses are able to obtain a large portion of their mineral requirements from the feed, but the concentration and availability varies with soil mineral concentration, plant species, and stage of maturity.
However, you don't need to over-do the supplements like most people, including myself do unless your horse is in strenuous exercise or being fed low-quality forage.
Dicalcium phosphate is a good or even limestone which is more freely available, helping promote bone growth/strength.

50% of your horses body weight is a guide to how much forage your horse should have access too.

Finally, ensure you horse is warm, TB tend to feel the cold alot more than your average cob especially if he is clipped. I'm a bit of a mollycoddler with my babies, and my cob is fully clipped with 3 rugs on and sometimes his pyjamas. If he is cold, he will be using unnecessary energy to keep warm such a shivering.

There's a lot of information to digest there but I'm sure with a lot of help and guidance from professionals and support off the knowledgeable people on here, your horse is going to flourish under your care and you will be out in summer competing a horse in excellent condition with nothing to be ashamed of :)

Wishing you the best of luck
 
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