tallyho!
Following a strict mediterranean diet...
Thats great. Thanks.
please tell me... do you leave a hoof abscess to burst or have it dug out?
- Thread starter mightymammoth
- Start date
Thats great. Thanks.
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
This is bad advice, sorry Leviathan.
Antibiotics are contra-indicated for foot abscesses which are not open. They can cause serious trouble with the abscess being suppressed but not cured and then causing greater problems when they fire up again.
Antibiotics should normally only be given when the abscess is open, and then they are normally completely unnecessary.
Please do not bug your vet for antibiotics for abscesses. They may give you them just to shut you up, as they did a friend of mine. That abscess caused problems for months.
Don't panic either, folks, pedal bone infection is extremely uncommon and there is no evidence whatsoever that it happens more with an abscess left to burst for itself than with one which is cut open. Abscesses almost always find a way out easily through a weak point in the foot, usually either up the laminae to the coronet band, out through the join between the bottom of the leg and the hoof bulb.
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Shysmum
Well-Known Member
Victoria - any news ? Have you decided what to do ? 
lyndsayberesford
Well-Known Member
i leave them to come out on their own, tub their foot in epsom salted warm water for 30 mins and then poultice. my horses came out later that day!
All leg puffiness disappeared after! Really think the epsom salts worked fab tho!
All leg puffiness disappeared after! Really think the epsom salts worked fab tho!
mightymammoth
Well-Known Member
@ shysmum is looking sore this morning so am waiting for vet to arrive, thanks for asking.
lyndsayberesford
Well-Known Member
oh yes leave the antibiotics! i asked my vet for them and they dont advise giving them for foot abscesses
Shysmum
Well-Known Member
Let us know how you get on.
Ibblebibble
Well-Known Member
those of you that leave them to burst themselves, how much lameness do you accept before you think they may need treatment?( i am genuinely curious and not trying to be sarcastic) my girl was on 3 legs, refusing to move, i couldn't work out where the pain was as couldn't get her to move enough to give me a hint so i called the vet. i would not have been comfortable leaving her in that kind of pain and seeing the difference after the vet had made a small hole was a relief for me as well as her.
Tnavas
Well-Known Member
ALWAYS get the farrier out especially if lameness comes on suddenly and after heavy rein - abscess weather.
If you leave them to find their own way out you risk them tracking to bone and then the infection eating into the bone = one permenantly lame horse.
Seen this twice now and both horse had to be destroyed.
The first we got to see the inside of the foot and the damaged bone - showing erosion and re modelling creating pressure/friction of ligaments and tendons.
2nd one - Is the foot that I have for teaching purposes. The horse had been turned out and left unchecked by its owner - 4yrs old. It was found with only a quarter of its foot still attached to the leg. Infection had been so bad that the horse had to be destroyed.
Personally I feel that anyone who leaves an abscess to find its own way out and a horse in an exceedingly painful condition as is generally the case with an abscess should be charged with cruelty and failng to provide medical attention.
More often than not the lameness is acute and can't be missed. One of mine had an abscess in both back feet and physically wouldn't move. Farrier came straight out and opened up the abscess's and we poulticed both feet. She was so sore that she had a five day course of Bute.
If you leave them to find their own way out you risk them tracking to bone and then the infection eating into the bone = one permenantly lame horse.
Seen this twice now and both horse had to be destroyed.
The first we got to see the inside of the foot and the damaged bone - showing erosion and re modelling creating pressure/friction of ligaments and tendons.
2nd one - Is the foot that I have for teaching purposes. The horse had been turned out and left unchecked by its owner - 4yrs old. It was found with only a quarter of its foot still attached to the leg. Infection had been so bad that the horse had to be destroyed.
Personally I feel that anyone who leaves an abscess to find its own way out and a horse in an exceedingly painful condition as is generally the case with an abscess should be charged with cruelty and failng to provide medical attention.
More often than not the lameness is acute and can't be missed. One of mine had an abscess in both back feet and physically wouldn't move. Farrier came straight out and opened up the abscess's and we poulticed both feet. She was so sore that she had a five day course of Bute.
tallyho!
Following a strict mediterranean diet...
I think what we have to accept is that there are varying degrees of abscesses and as a competent horsewoman/man you have to know when to make the call.
Citing horror stories certainly helps you to think of the WCS and allows you to judge how severe the matter is.
Some abscesses are mistaken for injury or laminits and can even be mistreated & VICE VERSA!!!. I think the more experienced people are able to make a rapid judgement but if in doubt I think it is best to call on help. Who that may be is up to you, standards of professionals in this country vary so you can only go by your instincts and local advice.
The majority of abscesses are self-treating i.e. they burst and the pressure built up internally expels the bulk of it and the residue is dealt with by the body's immune system and generally disappear in a matter of days. Some abscesses even deal with themselves and horse is hardly even lame.
Some require more TLC. In Tnavas' case I think these are very unfortunate animals.
I can't criticise Victoria and frown upon anyone who has. She is trying her level best and is treating it how it is presented. Her horse was not hopping lame, it is a *suspected* abscess. Despite hot poulticing and hot tubbing no pus has presented so rightly she is now calling the vet. I would do the same in her shoes and appreciate that no two abcesses are the same.
Citing horror stories certainly helps you to think of the WCS and allows you to judge how severe the matter is.
Some abscesses are mistaken for injury or laminits and can even be mistreated & VICE VERSA!!!. I think the more experienced people are able to make a rapid judgement but if in doubt I think it is best to call on help. Who that may be is up to you, standards of professionals in this country vary so you can only go by your instincts and local advice.
The majority of abscesses are self-treating i.e. they burst and the pressure built up internally expels the bulk of it and the residue is dealt with by the body's immune system and generally disappear in a matter of days. Some abscesses even deal with themselves and horse is hardly even lame.
Some require more TLC. In Tnavas' case I think these are very unfortunate animals.
I can't criticise Victoria and frown upon anyone who has. She is trying her level best and is treating it how it is presented. Her horse was not hopping lame, it is a *suspected* abscess. Despite hot poulticing and hot tubbing no pus has presented so rightly she is now calling the vet. I would do the same in her shoes and appreciate that no two abcesses are the same.
amandap
Well-Known Member
Are all abscess due to infection? Are many due to bruised and damaged tissue? If they are due to infection how is it getting in there if a hoof is healthy? Even if it is due to infection do we really want to run the risk of introducing another one with different bugs?
If you are going to compare to tooth abscesses why don't dentists drill to relieve the pressure and therefore pain? Tooth abscesses are due to infection ime. Personally I think the comparison is questionable.
amandap
Well-Known Member
Omg? Were they trying to expose the pedal bone then?My ex vet did this to one of my little un's hooves as the farrier couldn't come out..
He actually left her like this.. Poor little mare couldn't stand on it.. I was furious..
I would usually call my farrier first then vet to hopefully rule out anything more sinister..
ps. It was a good job your horse had a good sole depth.
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Angua2
Well-Known Member
Many many moons ago after watching my vet hack holes in my rather thin soled TB gelding, and also hacking himself apart I swore that I would get a farrier to look if it ever happened again (there was so much blood!). When said gelding abcessed again, farrier came and checked and advised to poultice and leave it to come out on its own.... never did find out where it came out though.
current mare has had a couple (i think), but i have only ever been aware of then when the abcess holes grow out ( she is obviously way more stoical than the gelding)
current mare has had a couple (i think), but i have only ever been aware of then when the abcess holes grow out ( she is obviously way more stoical than the gelding)
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KSR
Well-Known Member
Amandap - no, he was digging for an abscess if you can believe that.. That is total butchery in my opinion..
That was the last time I let him near any of my horses..
She was hopping lame for quite awhile.. Thankfully she has made a full recovery from that..
That was the last time I let him near any of my horses..
She was hopping lame for quite awhile.. Thankfully she has made a full recovery from that..
mightymammoth
Well-Known Member
Abscess has been found, it's actually just the old one that was dug out last month reinfected in the hole that was then covered by the shoe.guess I will draw my own conclusions from that. Front shoes will be off in 2 weeks so I think that will help me *awaits another tounge lashing from eb*
mightymammoth
Well-Known Member
Ksr I really feel for you, you must have been fuming and so upset when you saw that. I know they can be tricky to find but that's inexcusable x
paulineh
Well-Known Member
I would always have an abscess dug out. An abscess is infection, wheather the hole is small or large
by the time it is there you do not know where the infection has gone. A deep abscess can go into the bone causing further bad infection.
An abscess is very painful for the horse.
by the time it is there you do not know where the infection has gone. A deep abscess can go into the bone causing further bad infection.
An abscess is very painful for the horse.
mightymammoth
Well-Known Member
Paulineh wow, was that dug out?
Christmas Crumpet
Well-Known Member
My little horse who is hard as nails was a bit off last week and came in last friday very sore and by Sat morning, was hopping lame. I ummed and aahed about it all and decided to poultice for 48 hours and see whether anything happened. It didn't so got farrier out who found abscess under shoe. He had a dig about because there was no eruption of pus but a track of old solidified pus. Nothing has come out on poultice at all but she was instantly so much sounder once hole dug.
She's now out in a poultice boot to protect her from the mud and so she can start moving about. Seeing as there is nothing coming out on poultice, farrier advised to spray with iodine to harden up the foot where it was dug out.
I fully expected huge amounts of grim black stuff to come out seeing how lame she was but no. Farrier said it was at least a week old and had tracked along the hoof.
In hindsight, perhaps I should have just asked him to take the shoe off and let nature take its course but she was so lame and she is never lame, that I felt we had to do something.
The hole dug is not ideal but farrier assures me with a pad and some silicone sealing the back of the hoof/shoe, we'll be back on the road in no time.
Its hard to know what to do for the best because you can't see whats going on in the foot. However, I do believe that if your horse can't put its foot down and is hopping lame, you need to get a farrier or vet out to relieve the pressure/pain. I can only compare the pain to the time I got a blackthorn down my thumb nail and it went septic. Ow ow ow!!!
She's now out in a poultice boot to protect her from the mud and so she can start moving about. Seeing as there is nothing coming out on poultice, farrier advised to spray with iodine to harden up the foot where it was dug out.
I fully expected huge amounts of grim black stuff to come out seeing how lame she was but no. Farrier said it was at least a week old and had tracked along the hoof.
In hindsight, perhaps I should have just asked him to take the shoe off and let nature take its course but she was so lame and she is never lame, that I felt we had to do something.
The hole dug is not ideal but farrier assures me with a pad and some silicone sealing the back of the hoof/shoe, we'll be back on the road in no time.
Its hard to know what to do for the best because you can't see whats going on in the foot. However, I do believe that if your horse can't put its foot down and is hopping lame, you need to get a farrier or vet out to relieve the pressure/pain. I can only compare the pain to the time I got a blackthorn down my thumb nail and it went septic. Ow ow ow!!!
paulineh
Well-Known Member
Victoria1980X
Yes that was dug out the infection line tracked up quite high
here is it from underneath
It took over three weeks for Honey to become sound.
She is semi feral so not always easy to catch her.
Yes that was dug out the infection line tracked up quite high
here is it from underneath
It took over three weeks for Honey to become sound.
She is semi feral so not always easy to catch her.
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
There is no evidence whatsoever that leaving them to burst on their own increases the risk of bone infection, which also happens in ones that are opened by a vet or farrier. It's rare. It happens. BUt there is no demonstrable link between how the abscess finds its way out and bone infection and many vets and farriers advise leaving it, although not the majority.
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Faro
...
Recent case - Warrior - about 6 weeks ago.
Hopping lame, suspected abscess, vet came out, couldn't locate site of abscess. Asked vet for bute - given. Contrary to vet's advice, we left Warrior turned out (with foot covered and poulticed) - theory being that movement will help the abcess track up and out. Horse is on bute for comfort, and will move as much or as little as he is comfortable with. Also found hole in white line where (stone?) got in. No digging of hoof done whatsoever. On 5th day swelling above coronet band told me abscess was ready to burst out. It did. Horse instantly sound. Kept sole covered with dry poultice for further week and at the same time, treated sole and coronet band with dilution of Milton sterilising fluid. Warrior doing fantastic - 100% sound. Only the tinest mark on his coronet band growing down into the hoof. Am very glad we managed it exactly the way we did.
Hopping lame, suspected abscess, vet came out, couldn't locate site of abscess. Asked vet for bute - given. Contrary to vet's advice, we left Warrior turned out (with foot covered and poulticed) - theory being that movement will help the abcess track up and out. Horse is on bute for comfort, and will move as much or as little as he is comfortable with. Also found hole in white line where (stone?) got in. No digging of hoof done whatsoever. On 5th day swelling above coronet band told me abscess was ready to burst out. It did. Horse instantly sound. Kept sole covered with dry poultice for further week and at the same time, treated sole and coronet band with dilution of Milton sterilising fluid. Warrior doing fantastic - 100% sound. Only the tinest mark on his coronet band growing down into the hoof. Am very glad we managed it exactly the way we did.
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
I'm not surprised she took three weeks to come sound given that butchery. The infection had already tracked most of the way to the coronet band - in fact I think you can see the black hole where it goes further up, so far that he didn't dare dig any higher. If it had been left another day or so it would probably have burst at the coronet band and you could have disinfected it from the top with anything aerobic and avoided massacre-ing that foot!
Even it it did not burst at the top, whoever did that horror story had opened it at the bottom, so it was draining.
I would LOVE to hear the wonderful pseudoscience gobbledegook explanation he gave for his desperation to get in there with a sharp knife!
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amandap
Well-Known Member
Don't set me off CPT. I've been very restrained not having a rant. I wrote one last night to get it off my chest but didn't press post. 
Another thing about digging, how do we know when the abscess is ready to be drained? I think digging about can actually lead to them being opened before they are 'mature' and interferes with the hoofs natural healing process.
Removing so much supporting hoof structure as in these photos is a bit alarming to me tbh. The horse needs it's whole hoof to support and carry it not a proportion of it.
Another thing about digging, how do we know when the abscess is ready to be drained? I think digging about can actually lead to them being opened before they are 'mature' and interferes with the hoofs natural healing process.
Removing so much supporting hoof structure as in these photos is a bit alarming to me tbh. The horse needs it's whole hoof to support and carry it not a proportion of it.
Always Henesy
Well-Known Member
Oh what part of the Olympics? My farrier did the Olympic opening ceremony horses.
Victoria - ignore cross pants ^^^
I personally would leave it and hot tub for a few days. They do usually resolve themselves with minimal effort and cost.
But I am not against having the farrier dig one out if it should prove necessary.
ihatework
Well-Known Member
Generally I'd try and hot tub and poultice and keep the horse moving/turned out - hoping abcess would burst on it's own, if still struggling after 3-4 days or if on 3 legs /acting the dying swan, then farrier would be first port of call (IME far more conservative in their digging than the vets!)
simionet
Member
I've copied this from when I posted it on another thread for anyone interested in the dental/hoof comparisons. Just my ponderings on abscesses of both types and couldn't be bothered to type again!
FWIW Victoria although I would be inclined to wait and see (see below) as opposed to digging around I think each case needs to be assessed on an individual basis taking into account all factors- degree of discomfort, likely position of abscess(ie risk of causing more harm than good in looking for it!) , skill of operator (vet or farrier), past history etc etc. Like anything else with horses there is never going to be a hard and fast rule. Hope your horse is ok, sounds like you've done all the things a conscientious owner should do.
' Both my horses when shod had multiple abscesses, but I wasn´t aware of them. It was only when I had their shoes taken off and started to look at their feet properly (bad owner used to leave feet to the farrier!) that I noticed they each had several small (and some slightly larger) abscess exit holes in the hoof wall. They hadn´t cause any lameness, I had been eventing these horses so trust me I would have noticed! So for the people who say their horses have never had an abscess, they are not always symptomatic.
The most common abscesses we suffer, dental abscesses are often asymptomatic as they establish a drainage tract. They are painful when there is no path of drainage and pressure builds.
These abscesses are caused by death of the tissue inside the tooth (due to an inflammotory process and the loss of blood supply, laminitis anyone?!)and subsequent bacterial ingress. These bugs set up camp in the bone around the tooth and depènding on the interaction between the types of bugs and host response you may get the build up of pus.
Like hooves teeth can be tender to pressure when you have this situation which may range from a slight tenderness on biting to ranging pain. For this reason I don´t buy into the idea that hoof abscesses are always non weight bearing (as I´ve been told by many a farrier) and there is likely to be a range of symptoms from none to grumbling to the classic pointing- foot-three legged-hop!
In comparison to dental abscesses there seems to be little solid info on the pathophysiology of hoof abscesses but I suspect it is a lot more complex than the simple foreign body entry often cited (although this may be one cause)
Host immunity has a massive role in how abscesses develop. My cushings horse had many more abscess exit holes than the healthy youngster. Since being barefoot for a year he has only had one, a rather massive one, completely asymptomatic that became evident recently when one of his heels fell off! He has been on pergolide or a month and is doing really well so I will watch with interest for future abscesses.
Of all the eight hooves I´ve been monitoring closely (I´m talking crawling in the dirt with a magnifying glass, hoof geek ) over the past 18 months the only pair that don´t seem to have suffered any abscesses are the never shod hind feet of the healthy youngster.
As with any illness though I´m certain that abscesses and certainly recurrent abscesses have a multifactorial pathology.'
NB. In a true tooth abscess(presence of pus), as opposed to the grumbling chronic/acute infection that precedes it drainage is always the primary treatment rather than antibiotics. If a drainage tract has established itself then treatment is not urgent. People often present at the dentist having made an appointment due to acute pain that has eased by the time they arrive - abscess has burst! The risk of serious complications with a dental abscess are rare although they do happen. Treatment doesn't necessarily make the difference once things are headinbg in this direction. Spreading infection does require ABs.
FWIW Victoria although I would be inclined to wait and see (see below) as opposed to digging around I think each case needs to be assessed on an individual basis taking into account all factors- degree of discomfort, likely position of abscess(ie risk of causing more harm than good in looking for it!) , skill of operator (vet or farrier), past history etc etc. Like anything else with horses there is never going to be a hard and fast rule. Hope your horse is ok, sounds like you've done all the things a conscientious owner should do.
' Both my horses when shod had multiple abscesses, but I wasn´t aware of them. It was only when I had their shoes taken off and started to look at their feet properly (bad owner used to leave feet to the farrier!) that I noticed they each had several small (and some slightly larger) abscess exit holes in the hoof wall. They hadn´t cause any lameness, I had been eventing these horses so trust me I would have noticed! So for the people who say their horses have never had an abscess, they are not always symptomatic.
The most common abscesses we suffer, dental abscesses are often asymptomatic as they establish a drainage tract. They are painful when there is no path of drainage and pressure builds.
These abscesses are caused by death of the tissue inside the tooth (due to an inflammotory process and the loss of blood supply, laminitis anyone?!)and subsequent bacterial ingress. These bugs set up camp in the bone around the tooth and depènding on the interaction between the types of bugs and host response you may get the build up of pus.
Like hooves teeth can be tender to pressure when you have this situation which may range from a slight tenderness on biting to ranging pain. For this reason I don´t buy into the idea that hoof abscesses are always non weight bearing (as I´ve been told by many a farrier) and there is likely to be a range of symptoms from none to grumbling to the classic pointing- foot-three legged-hop!
In comparison to dental abscesses there seems to be little solid info on the pathophysiology of hoof abscesses but I suspect it is a lot more complex than the simple foreign body entry often cited (although this may be one cause)
Host immunity has a massive role in how abscesses develop. My cushings horse had many more abscess exit holes than the healthy youngster. Since being barefoot for a year he has only had one, a rather massive one, completely asymptomatic that became evident recently when one of his heels fell off! He has been on pergolide or a month and is doing really well so I will watch with interest for future abscesses.
Of all the eight hooves I´ve been monitoring closely (I´m talking crawling in the dirt with a magnifying glass, hoof geek ) over the past 18 months the only pair that don´t seem to have suffered any abscesses are the never shod hind feet of the healthy youngster.
As with any illness though I´m certain that abscesses and certainly recurrent abscesses have a multifactorial pathology.'
NB. In a true tooth abscess(presence of pus), as opposed to the grumbling chronic/acute infection that precedes it drainage is always the primary treatment rather than antibiotics. If a drainage tract has established itself then treatment is not urgent. People often present at the dentist having made an appointment due to acute pain that has eased by the time they arrive - abscess has burst! The risk of serious complications with a dental abscess are rare although they do happen. Treatment doesn't necessarily make the difference once things are headinbg in this direction. Spreading infection does require ABs.
paulineh
Well-Known Member
Before you go on and on I trust both the farrier AND my vet.
What would have happened IF I had left it another day !!! infection in the bone.
Are YOU a vet or a farrier.
amandap
Well-Known Member
Very interesting post you copied over simonet. Thank you for taking the trouble.
Re your youngster I expect you have read this story but in case you haven't. http://www.forageplus.com/forageplusstories.html
It may or may not be relevant.
I too believe many/most hoof abscesses are asymptomatic especially in shod horses. I think the three leg lame ones are severe, ?large that are getting to a critical pressure point and still finding a way to exit. Hence the extreme pain level.
Re your youngster I expect you have read this story but in case you haven't. http://www.forageplus.com/forageplusstories.html
It may or may not be relevant.
I too believe many/most hoof abscesses are asymptomatic especially in shod horses. I think the three leg lame ones are severe, ?large that are getting to a critical pressure point and still finding a way to exit. Hence the extreme pain level.
Meowy Catkin
Meow!
I don't know if anyone remembers my posts about my mare and the horror story with my former farrier that resulted in my mare having severely compromised hooves?
Anyhoo. Just because some of you might find it interesting, it was my new Farrier and my Vet who advised leaving her out and doing nothing when she had yet another abscess. That abscess healed far quicker than the ones that had been dug at. Yes, she was on three legs for a few hours before it went pop and it was awful to watch, but later that day she was sound.
I was told that if the leg swelled up, that I should call the Vet.
^ Important.
The other thing that people seem to be forgetting, is the fact that strictly speaking, it is illegal for a Farrier to diagnose lameness. Yes, the Law is idiotic sometimes.
Anyhoo. Just because some of you might find it interesting, it was my new Farrier and my Vet who advised leaving her out and doing nothing when she had yet another abscess. That abscess healed far quicker than the ones that had been dug at. Yes, she was on three legs for a few hours before it went pop and it was awful to watch, but later that day she was sound.
I was told that if the leg swelled up, that I should call the Vet.
^ Important.
The other thing that people seem to be forgetting, is the fact that strictly speaking, it is illegal for a Farrier to diagnose lameness. Yes, the Law is idiotic sometimes.