Please tell me I’m not totally wrong

[Abi90]

Evening all,

As you will know I’ve been having issues with Rosie. The same issues as two years ago when she had ulcers. I have tried self treating but to no avail so after physio, Chiro, saddle check and teeth she’s got the vet on Friday to refer to scope if necessary and see if they can spot any subtle signs of anything else. I’m also considering Tom Beech.

I’m very upset but the whole thing as up until a month ago she was whizzing round 95cm courses and we were looking forward to a season competing to being unable to get out of walk without pulling faces, bucking and threatening to rear . And to see her so uncomfortable is heart breaking.

Now seeking some advice from friends today I was told the following, and I hand on heart believe it was meant with my well being at heart that I should consider that Rosie May just be a stroppy Irish draught with poor work ethic and that maybe I should consider that she’s the wrong horse for me and is taking the P.

Now I’ve always been a believer that a sudden and dramatic change in behaviour Is usually pain related and that very few horses have an attitude problem. I also struggle to see how I’ve managed to produce a horse from a 4 yr old that had done 5 weeks under saddle to a rising7 yr old that was jumping 95cm when it’s the wrong horse for me. This afternoon has left me feeling upset and demoralised.

I haven’t taken this up with them as they meant it to be helpful and it’s their opinion that they are entitled to have but I just wanted some reassurance that I was doing the right thing in not just giving up on my normally lovely, easy and try hard horse!

I had this from a vet when she had ulcers last time. “Just has an attitude problem have it put down”. So I’m rather nervous about the vet on Friday as I know something is wrong!

 

[redapple]

Wow.... the cheek of that vet.

Ignoring that. No I don't think you are doing the wrong thing. She sounds like she has 'work ethic' when she's not in pain?

However, if she does keep getting flair ups and they are linked to when the work starts to get increased then I'd try everything I possibly could to manage it but have in the back of my mind that perhaps it's not the right horse for the job.

I wouldn't be thinking too much about that yet though.

 

[scats]

Polly exhibited similar behaviour, wouldn’t go forwards- ears back, bucking, rearing and very unhappy. One professional who was recommended to me told me she was being naughty and had I tried belting her one....
Turns out that she had PSD. It’s mild enough that many horses would just continue as normal and the vets have seen horses with much worse PSD react nowhere near as violently as Polly. But that’s Polly.
I sent her to to the hospital and had her body scanned and then x-rayed and eventually found my answer. The vets did not consider her a candidate for surgery because of her attitude. She now does walk and trot on long reins and walk under saddle. I don’t expect we will get any further now, sadly.

 

[stormox]

So for 2 years from 4yr old to 6yr old shes been perfect? Then suddenly gone sour and stroppy? I would say she must have developed a physical problem...

 

[Abi90]

Wow.... the cheek of that vet.

Ignoring that. No I don't think you are doing the wrong thing. She sounds like she has 'work ethic' when she's not in pain?

However, if she does keep getting flair ups and they are linked to when the work starts to get increased then I'd try everything I possibly could to manage it but have in the back of my mind that perhaps it's not the right horse for the job.

I wouldn't be thinking too much about that yet though.

Hi thanks for the post. She had them 2 years ago when she was in next to no work at all and has been fine ever since despite increasing work load until this winter where we’ve moved to a different area of the country, she’s been on a totally different routine than she’s used to with far less turnout so we moved yard to get more turnout but I think these stresses are what caused them. But she will definitely get looked at properly by the vet

 

[bonny]

You know your own horse, the rest of them are merely observers !

 

[Carlosmum]

It sounds like she is really uncomfortable and every sudden change in behaviour should be investigated. I dont have experience of ulcers but I would be looking at what fee she is getting and see if there is any simple change you can make once you have had a diagnosis from the vet.

 

[Abi90]

So for 2 years from 4yr old to 6yr old shes been perfect? Then suddenly gone sour and stroppy? I would say she must have developed a physical problem...

That is my conclusion as well, hence the vet but after this afternoon I was beginning to doubt myself

 

[Trouper]

Please don't just think about Tom Beech - do it. It may be ulcers but at this time of year and after a mild winter I would also be thinking ovaries. If there is an answer to be found Tom Beech usually finds it and I think you are a long way off giving up yet.

 

[Melody Grey]

Change your vet. You need to be able to trust them and trust that they believe your instinct and knowledge rather than pass things off as behavioural.

 

[Dwyran_gold]

From much I’ve read change of behaviour is most usually pain related from what I’ve seen it can sometimes be season related in mares but I would definitely go down the vet route. There’s always someone with an opinion, sometimes they mean the best, sometimes it’s a sugar coated dig. You just need to brush it off and trust your gut. You know your horse better than anyone xx

 

[Abi90]

Please don't just think about Tom Beech - do it. It may be ulcers but at this time of year and after a mild winter I would also be thinking ovaries. If there is an answer to be found Tom Beech usually finds it and I think you are a long way off giving up yet.

yes I am wondering ovaries as well

 

[Abi90]

Change your vet. You need to be able to trust them and trust that they believe your instinct and knowledge rather than pass things off as behavioural.

I have, this was a previous vet for a reason!

 

[Asha]

That is my conclusion as well, hence the vet but after this afternoon I was beginning to doubt myself

Do not doubt yourself, you know her better than anyone else. She sounds as though shes in pain to me. Hope you get some answers on Friday.
When my ID mare went a bit shuffly, like you I knew she wasn't right, straight to vets and found she had reverse rotation in the hinds. A change of shoeing and shes been fabulous ever since.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

I remember being here before!

Stick to your guns, you were right last time and I bet you are right this time.
What do you feed her on?

 

[ycbm]

I feel your pain, I've had an increasingly badly behaving horse for three months with an instructor insisting it was behavioural, (I knew it wasn't, he's just not like that), only to discover almost by accident that he's very, very affected by soya. Drop the soya food and he's as sweet as a nut.

It just sounds like the change of routine has given her ulcers again.

.

 

[Abi90]

I remember being here before!

Stick to your guns, you were right last time and I bet you are right this time.
What do you feed her on?

Yes, Hi!

She was on fibre beet, a spillers chaff that’s ulcer friendly and a Baileys ulcer friendly balancer.

She’s been on GastroPlus a week as well but that made no difference. Stripped her feed right back though because she’s now got too much energy because she not working.

I believe that she’s probably not in that much pain really but she’s so sensitive she’s decided it’s too much pain!

It is exactly the same as last time Pearlsasinger, in fact it’s mildly better as she will still walk!

 

[Goldenstar]

Just get her scoped again but this time you will have to try to find what’s triggered this flare up if indeed she has ulcers .
I would want some flexions done as well just in case I would probably go for a mini problems with performance type work up .
Do all the trotting up lunging and riding on the soft and the hard and do the flexions .
See if anything comes up.

 

[Abi90]

Just get her scoped again but this time you will have to try to find what’s triggered this flare up if indeed she has ulcers .
I would want some flexions done as well just in case I would probably go for a mini problems with performance type work up .
Do all the trotting up lunging and riding on the soft and the hard and do the flexions .
See if anything comes up.

We found a very minor issue with her stifle last time, which was medicated, but we’re not sure if we found it because we were looking or whether it was the cause as it was very minor.

It could be that the effects of the medication has worn off... 2 years later or whether she doesn’t like limited turn out in wet horrible winters.

I managed to find a yard where I could keep her out 24/7 in summer and out for 10 hours in the winter and no flare up last year but that’s impossible to find in Lincolnshire when I need her on full livery with my job. I’m very tempted to send her back up to Northumberland where she thrived last winter rather than down here

 

[[139672]]

Richard Maxwell now sells a feed additive which is supposed to be brilliant for ulcers.

 

[Ellietotz]

Sorry to hear you're going through this again.
I went on a complete rollercoaster with my mare and now I've finally solved it. My mare, before she was mine, for five years did absolutely nothing and was a field ornament for a long time because she became unrideable and horrible to handle. She was very overweight but lived out 24/7. The owner then sent her to a loan home and she returned underweight after 2 months but they had at least got her going somehow. I took her on loan, before she was gifted to me, and I just couldn't understand why she was being so horrid, reluctant to move forward, ears back etc. I took way longer than I should have to get her scoped but she was always fine through summer which was very confusing. Eventually I did it and she did have ulcers. Fast forward to them being healed, she was fine again through summer and for two winters, she would just deteriorate again which lined up to when she would come in at night too. Symptoms would come back, she would be uncomfortable and didn't want to be touched all over. I sent her for a full work up, xrays, scanned suspensories, checked ovaries. They thought it would be SI but there wasn't really anything to see. Since then, I tried her on vitamin e and started to treat her as though she had pssm as the symptoms matched up. I've kept her warm, increased protein and kept up with the vitamin e and this is our first winter since and she is better than ever. It made sense why she was fine in the summer when it was warmer and why she got really bad in winter when it was cold and she was stabled. It must have caused her so much pain and it made sense why she was sore all over and physios couldn't understand why either.
I know I have gone on a rant but basically my experience was confusing as she seemed fine for a long period and then wasn't so it was hard to know what was going on until it all added up. I haven't tested for pssm but I suspect she is type 2 and I have finally got the right management to keep her happy. I wondered if yours might be the same as you have started stabling and its obviously colder but I don't know if you have seen any other symptoms so it was just an idea. I hope you get to bottom of it though and I also wouldn't have said you were overhorsed from what you said! X

 

[Goldenstar]

It’s my experience that these flare up type situations are driven by orthopaedic or soft tissue pain .
Do her stifles feel evenly sized ? No subtle swelling over either .
if she is for want of a better word backwards to ride consistently if so might be worth considering a stifle block and see if she immediately improves .
that would give you a quick answer to that question .

 

[Abi90]

Thanks EllieTotz I remember your threads and it did come to my mind it could be something like that. She is a big Irish draught and I believe they are more susceptible?

what do you do to manage it?

 

[tallyho!]

Have you considered PSSM?
Obviously not everything is PSSM but it sounds sudden enough to be and some classic signs. They don’t all tie up. Not read everything but just reading your post made the bell ring.

 

[Abi90]

It’s my experience that these flare up type situations are driven by orthopaedic or soft tissue pain .
Do her stifles feel evenly sized ? No subtle swelling over either .
if she is for want of a better word backwards to ride consistently if so might be worth considering a stifle block and see if she immediately improves .
that would give you a quick answer to that question .

Her stifles feel evenly slightly squidgy, which they have been the entire time and that never resolved and she’s been I full work for 2 years since they were medicated. So it’s hard to say if they have flared up as they are normal for her. It’s a possibility but she went lame after physio last time with stifles, this time she improved after physio so we’re not sure. It’s certainly a possibility! And will be mentioned to the vet. They will find nothing on an x-ray and very little on ultra sound like last time

 

[Abi90]

Have you considered PSSM?
Obviously not everything is PSSM but it sounds sudden enough to be and some classic signs. They don’t all tie up. Not read everything but just reading your post made the bell ring.

Yes but I had forgotten what it was called. Aren’t big and native types more prone? Like a massive Irish draught for example?

 

[Lois Lame]

I’m very tempted to send her back up to Northumberland where she thrived last winter rather than down here

That sounds like a good idea.

Maybe it's feed and exercise related.

 

[Abi90]

Ellie Totz, what do you feed for PSSM? Needs to be ulcer friendly as well! She had seemed to be improving over the weekend then they had a day in because the shoot was about and then she was a hundred times worse the next day

 

[Tiddlypom]

My chunky IDx mare (in avatar) was transformed for the better by giving her elevated levels of vitamin E (10,000 iu/day) and keeping her warm. I was on the verge of gifting her back to her breeder for extreme grumpiness before I tried the vit E as a last ditch clutch at straws after reading about PSSM on HHO.

Also a general low sugar/high fibre healthy diet, no cereals.

 

[ycbm]

Yes but I had forgotten what it was called. Aren’t big and native types more prone? Like a massive Irish draught for example?

Yes, more common in draft types, QH, Appaloosas, very common in heavies.

.