Please tell me I’m not totally wrong

[Abi90]

Yes, more common in draft types, QH, Appaloosas, very common in heavies.

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As far as I’m aware she’s never tied up but the two winters where she’s had restricted turnout she’s done this. Her muscles haven’t felt too bad this winter but 2 years ago she was horrendously tight and just awful really. She looked like she was improving then spent a couple of days in and then I couldn’t get her out of walk. Something to bear in mind

 

[maya2008]

My pssm mare doesn’t tie up as such but her muscles go hard and she starts to struggle. In her, the quarters go literally rock hard after she has done too much. There is a genetic test and you can do a muscle biopsy.

 

[Vodkagirly]

Definitely sounds like soreness not behaviour to me. I had similar but a slower change - I thought he was taking p out of me so started getting my instructor to school him. He was better with her but after a few weeks it was clear he wasn't his old self. He had no energy despite being technically very fit.
Did the pssm test which was negative but for the price it is certainly worth ruling out. Did the teeth, saddle and masage checks and found nothing. Tried a joint supplement, no change. Tried high energy food, no improvement. Started on a hind gut supplement, suceed which has made a huge difference.
Good luck with your investigations.

 

[Flicker]

Any change in behaviour must definitely be investigated from a physical / pain / lameness perspective. Horses do not have the mental capacity to sit around thinking of how they can get out of work. They respond to training (good and poor) and how they feel physically.

My last mare had hock and SI problems. She’d always been a bit spooky, a little bit negative, a bit girthy (typical ‘mare’ behaviour) and had been that way since I bought her - with a clean 5 stage vetting certificate. When we clocked on about 3 months after buying her that she was definitely not right behind, she was treated with steroids into the hocks and SI region. During the time that the steroids were masking the pain symptoms, she became a different horse! Loving, calm, forward going, enthusiastic. It broke my heart to realise that she’d been so uncomfortable for so long and she’d just been made to get on with it. So many instructors, and her previous owner, had just said ‘oh she‘s just being a cow, kick her on!’

After having owned her, I will never, never attribute poor behaviour in a horse to mental attitude and will always explore physical causes as a first port of call.

 

[eahotson]

Just a thought but have you tried having her assessed by a decent ACPAT physiotherapist?When I bought mine a few years ago he passed a five star vetting but a physio assessment very shortly after purchase showed him to be very sore and stiff.He needed at least three treatments to get him fit for work.I knew the physio well and she is not a con artist trying to take more money off clients than they need to spend.

 

[ycbm]

As far as I’m aware she’s never tied up but the two winters where she’s had restricted turnout she’s done this. Her muscles haven’t felt too bad this winter but 2 years ago she was horrendously tight and just awful really. She looked like she was improving then spent a couple of days in and then I couldn’t get her out of walk. Something to bear in mind

I would do more than bear it in mind, because treating it is harmless even if she hasn't got it. Most of them never tie up and have symptoms just like yours.

I would immediately put her on 10,000iu of natural vitamin E, not the stuff with selenium in and it has to be natural not synthetic. I had great results on one horse adding alcar, but you might not need it, many don't.

I'd hold off any ulcer scope for a couple of weeks until you see if it makes a difference.

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[Abi90]

I would do more than bear it in mind, because treating it is harmless even if she hasn't got it. Most of them never tie up and have symptoms just like yours.

I would immediately put her on 10,000iu of natural vitamin E, not the stuff with selenium in and it has to be natural not synthetic. I had great results on one horse adding alcar, but you might not need it, many don't.

I'd hold off any ulcer scope for a couple of weeks until you see if it makes a difference.

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Could you PM me a suitable product? Thinking about it she only does this in winter when stables and has only done it on bad winters when stabled for excessive periods. In summer she’s always been out 24/7 so no problems and last winter she was out for 10 hours a day.
She did have ulcers last time as well. She came back into work absolutely fine after 3 months mooching in a field 24/7

 

[Abi90]

Just a thought but have you tried having her assessed by a decent ACPAT physiotherapist?When I bought mine a few years ago he passed a five star vetting but a physio assessment very shortly after purchase showed him to be very sore and stiff.He needed at least three treatments to get him fit for work.I knew the physio well and she is not a con artist trying to take more money off clients than they need to spend.

She’s had one see her. Couldn’t find anything worrying or screaming see a vet although in the space of less than a month she had gone from having a lovely supple back to one full of trigger points.

she improved rather than going lame after treatment which physio saw as a good sign.

 

[ycbm]

Forageplus.co.uk is usually the cheapest powder and Equimins.co.uk by far the cheapest per 1000iu, but it's a thick oil that many people, including me, find a real nuisance to use.

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[ycbm]

Could you PM me a suitable product? Thinking about it she only does this in winter when stables and has only done it on bad winters when stabled for excessive periods. In summer she’s always been out 24/7 so no problems and last winter she was out for 10 hours a day.
She did have ulcers last time as well. She came back into work absolutely fine after 3 months mooching in a field 24/7

That all fits as a mild case who is turnout dependent. The muscle pain can also cause the ulcers. They get very low in vitamin E in winter. You'll probably find that if she does need it, you will be able to reduce from 10,000iu. Mine was on 5 in winter 2 in summer.

 

[Abi90]

That all fits as a mild case who is turnout dependent. The muscle pain can also cause the ulcers. They get very low in vitamin E in winter. You'll probably find that if she does need it, you will be able to reduce from 10,000iu. Mine was on 5 in winter 2 in summer.

Thank you very much. I had it in the back of my mind as she had physio in December with lovely soft muscles but within about a week she had bad trigger points all along the the thoracic and Lumbar region of her back. I know that could go with a number of things but she didn’t present as lame, maybe 0.5/10 and after treatment she was a million times better. I had seen some improvement in her after a week of good turnout but they were in for a couple of days because of the shoot and she was really bad on Monday, walking happily but bucking when asked to trot and threatening a rear and pulling faces.
YO has said she will put her out for 10 hours a day come what may and will sacrifice a paddock if need be as it’s nearly spring and she has plenty of paddocks vs horses.
Like you say, it can only help and not harm. Thank you, very much appreciated.

 

[TheSpottyCobby]

I've just started on my PSSM journey, and have done a lot of reading in the past month! There is such a lack of awareness in the UK, and for the price of a test it is well worth trying. I think there must be so many horses out there which have the condition and vets are left scratching their heads or just say they are lazy, bad tempered etc. There are some great Facebook groups you can also join which have been a lifesaver for me!
If nothing else, the low sugar and starch diet is sensible for any equine, and the vitamin e won't do any harm either.

 

[Dyllymoo]

I haven't read the comments (apart from your original post OH) but please don't listen to them or the vet.

I was told my horse was malicious, she was a nasty (lots of swear words here), she was taking the p, she needed to be pushed through it, by "friends" and by a vet when I saw her 4 times because I was convinced there was something wrong.

I started to believe I couldn't ride her, she was too much for me, my nerves had caused her to start spooking and spinning and behaving the way she was.

Last ditch attempt was when I fell off and was winded quite badly. I said to my OH either I send her for a referral visit to AHT (Sue Dyson) and she is fine and I sell her, or we send her there and there is something wrong and we deal with it but I couldn't carry on (for her and me).

We went to AHT and Sue found multiple issues and was not the slightest bit surprised in her behaviour.

Also I strongly believe ulcers are usually a symptom of something else. i.e. there is usually another pain related issue that can cause the ulcers to flare. Obviously I'm not a vet but this has been my experience.

I'm sorry you are having to go through all of this

 

[SEL]

Bit late to the party but as the owner of 2 x PSSM horses and as someone who regularly recommends adding vitamin E to horse's diets over winter then that is something I think you should try. Make sure it is natural source because although its expensive it works.

You might find the vet will recommend gastroguard without scoping if she's had ulcers before - worth pushing for that to try and keep the costs and stress down.

I've been on the end of 'your horse is lay, naps, needs pushing through it, ridden more strongly, better rider blah blah blah' - she has PSSM. On a bad day it hurts and she would be an ideal model for Sue Dyson's "pain face" in horses vlog. Unfortunately very few people can recognise a pain face - including vets - and just think she needs pushing through it. I have actually been at a lameness work-up where the vet said she looked fine, but she wasn't tracking up in the slightest and her face had Ouch written all over it. We don't use that vet any more. Trust your gut

 

[Dyllymoo]

Trust your gut

This... a million times this!

 

[Abi90]

On a bad day it hurts and she would be an ideal model for Sue Dyson's "pain face" in horses vlog. Unfortunately very few people can recognise a pain face - including vets - and just think she needs pushing through it. I have actually been at a lameness work-up where the vet said she looked fine, but she wasn't tracking up in the slightest and her face had Ouch written all over it. We don't use that vet any more. Trust your gut

She absolutely pulls a pain face. It’s the same as the one in her Vlog. She is normally the sweetest and easiest horse you can imagine, I put my fairly novice friend on her and they were jumping 90cm. Now she’s thrown her toys at the pram over something. Have ordered some Vitamin C, like you say, it can’t hurt!

 

[MissMoo]

Haven't read all the replies but I would go with your gut instinct and ignore your friends/vet remarks. My mare went from being happy and willing to incredibly grumpy and I was having some ridden problems with her - every time I mentioned the problems to my instructor I was told it was my riding - had her scoped for ulcers and lameness exam and she showed mild ulcers and bi-lateral psd. You know your horse best so trust your gut.

 

[Ellietotz]

Thanks EllieTotz I remember your threads and it did come to my mind it could be something like that. She is a big Irish draught and I believe they are more susceptible?

what do you do to manage it?

The main thing was the vitamin e. I started on 10000iu and after about 3 weeks, I noticed she was moving better and then a couple of months later, I noticed loads of improvements in different things she did and she felt squishy to touch all over whereas she was solid before, she was just so much happier. This is my first winter with treating her like this and I have kept her rugged up warm so that you can feel it when you put your hand under. I also changed her feed so she gets just under 1kg of copra as a mash with grass chaff as she mainly needed the protein through winter and probably only quarter that in summer. She's now good on 8000iu in winter and 4000iu in summer for vit e too.
You don't have to worry too much about sugar with type 2 luckily but I do because of her having ulcers before. I also decided not to stable her through winter except for this week which was the first time since because of her mud fever and she's actually been fine so maybe she just knew before when she wasn't getting the vitamin e etc that she would end up in so much pain by the end of the night.
One thing I did learn, trying vitamin e before racking up a huge vet bill with tests would definitely have been a lot easier!
Her ulcer symptoms always came back in the winter too so I just put that down to her being in more pain in the cold.

 

[Abi90]

Thank you all for your helpful comments. I certainly feel better than I did and feel justified in trusting my instincts.

I have ordered some Vitamin E which apparently is already on its way!

Hoping for a useful visit from the vet on Friday and that he is open to discussing what is wrong. Because something is!

 

[Tiddlypom]

Good luck with the vit E trial. My IDx mare improved dramatically after only 48 hours on vitamin E (I buy natural vit E powder from Forageplus).
I wasn’t expecting it to make any difference, so it wasn’t a placebo effect. Maybe see how he does on it before the vet next sees him?

 

[flying_high]

I would immediately put her on 10,000iu of natural vitamin E, not the stuff with selenium in and it has to be natural not synthetic. I had great results on one horse adding alcar, but you might not need it, many don't.

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I thought (pretty sure it says this on Forage plus website) you can feed synthetic at twice the stated dose, or natural at the recommended dose. Both work the same. But work out about the same cost, as need twice as much synthetic vitamin E for it to work. (Because the synthetic is half vitamin E and half a synthetic mirror image of vitamin E (an isomer). Something like that.

 

[ycbm]

I thought (pretty sure it says this on Forage plus website) you can feed synthetic at twice the stated dose, or natural at the recommended dose. Both work the same. But work out about the same cost, as need twice as much synthetic vitamin E for it to work. (Because the synthetic is half vitamin E and half a synthetic mirror image of vitamin E (an isomer). Something like that.

Yes, you can pay half as much for synthetic, feed twice as much, and end up paying the same amount as for a natural product.

'It must be natural' is my shorthand for that, followed by -

Why would you ? ?

 

[Abi90]

Found a list of PSSM symptoms on the Facebook page where it says “if your horse does 3 or more of these it might have PSSM”... she does 8!

 

[cundlegreen]

yes I am wondering ovaries as well

I think very few mares actually have problems with ovaries. I went down that route with a mare of mine, and she was fine. Turns out she had a major injury to her SSL, leading to bone spurs and KS. There is always a reason, and 99% of the time, it's physical. Horses don't spend their time trying to be arsey just for the sake of it. They are very good at putting up with discomfort longer than they should. Well done for listening to your horse.

 

[Abi90]

I think very few mares actually have problems with ovaries. I went down that route with a mare of mine, and she was fine. Turns out she had a major injury to her SSL, leading to bone spurs and KS. There is always a reason, and 99% of the time, it's physical. Horses don't spend their time trying to be arsey just for the sake of it. They are very good at putting up with discomfort longer than they should. Well done for listening to your horse.

This horse is not very good at putting up with discomfort. She was particularly awful one day a while back because the flocking in her saddle was not perfect. Saddler rebalanced it with the tiniest amount of fluff and she was a changed horse ? however I believe she is telling me she is not okay

 

[Woody50]

I had a horse a few years ago. A 4yr old pure ID and he was the easiest youngster i had ever had. When he was 5 he had a fall in the field and he started to become reluctant to go forwards when ridden and would buck and kick out. The first vet i used found ulcers but refused to listen to me about the horse and said it was my riding and i should send him to someone else. Eventually i insisted he was referred for a bone scan and he went to Langford. The bone scan showed nothing and the vet wanted to see me ride him, so i did. She watched and said theres nothing wrong with him, its in his head and i should beat him through it. She said if i couldnt do that, to find someone who would!!! I went home and changed vet. Within a couple of weeks he was diagnosed with bilateral PSD.
The one thing it taught me was that my gut feeling was right and always stand up to your vet and insist they listen to you. If they wont then change vet! You know your horse better than anyone. Hope you get to the bottom of it

 

[Abi90]

Vet has been and I was pleasantly surprised. He said she’s not lame as such but she’s not using herself properly from behind even though she is tracking up as she’s clearly uncomfortable and you can see it in her face. He then started talking about Sue Dyson and pain faces ?

She’s going in for a scope the week after next but he said if they find nothing then he will do a conservative work up with lack of insurance in mind afterwards.

He said feeding Vitamin E was worth a shot and certainly wouldn’t do any harm.

 

[SEL]

Vet has been and I was pleasantly surprised. He said she’s not lame as such but she’s not using herself properly from behind even though she is tracking up as she’s clearly uncomfortable and you can see it in her face. He then started talking about Sue Dyson and pain faces ?

He said feeding Vitamin E was worth a shot and certainly wouldn’t do any harm.

Maybe your vet was on the same podcast as me last week! One of the videos Sue showed hit home with me that I really do need to push more with the SI investigations. My main problem is when my mare turns up at the hospital she is full of adrenaline and that completely over-rides any pain face - instead we get the 'oooh, whats going on over there?' face and she bounces around like nothing is wrong.

Sounds like your vet is going to be quite proactive which is good.

 

[cundlegreen]

This horse is not very good at putting up with discomfort. She was particularly awful one day a while back because the flocking in her saddle was not perfect. Saddler rebalanced it with the tiniest amount of fluff and she was a changed horse ? however I believe she is telling me she is not okay

I have a mare the same. They are more sensitive than geldings. Hope you find the cause.

 

[tallyho!]

Yes but I had forgotten what it was called. Aren’t big and native types more prone? Like a massive Irish draught for example?

Nope. Things have progressed massively since then. The research is now very advanced. I have an Iberian with PSSM2