Please tell me why the obsession with barefoot?

[TrasaM]

You know what - reading through this thread, there it seems there has been so much of a turnaround in HHO's attitude to all things barefoot - really interesting. I bet in a few hundred years, barefoot could be the norm - owners seem to be wising up that hoof health is a total reflection of horse health.

I certainly hope so.

 

[cptrayes]

Not many horses will work properly without complaint in a saddle which doesn't fit, ime.

At any event I go to I will see at least 30% of the horses working "happily" in saddles which, by my definition, do not fit. Favourites are too high in front and too long in the panel, closely followed by extremely small bearing surface in relation to rider weight and panel too flat/wide for an A-frame back shape.

In my opinion, horses are far more long-suffering than you think, and this goes for foot pain as well.

 

[cptrayes]

I think it is no more damaging than other management choices which are common in this country, and that it is similarly impractical to avoid shoeing some working horses. I actually don't care whether people choose to shoe or not, and I don't see why you feel it is your business to preach at people whose opinions differ from your own.

I don't.

I answer people's questions when they ask them on here and when other people give contradictory advice that I do not think is right for the poster who asked the question, I ask them to explain more. If they choose to engage in an argument and I think they are wrong, I will tell them why I think they are wrong in exactly the same way as they are telling me that I am wrong. That's just good argument and discussion.

If you choose to interpret that as preaching, so be it.

 

[BeesKnees]

Outwith this forum, neither have I heard about all this palaver with keeping horses unshod and I never ever hear anyone referring to their horse as barefoot. The only time, and I know I keep harping on about it, any eyebrows are raised where I live is if someone has shoes on their horses feet and everyone automatically thinks there's something wrong with the horse if it has to wear shoes. I have over 50 horses, none wear shoes (although I certainly would have them shod if I felt it best for the individual horse), none have all these extra special lotions and potions or super-duper feedstuffs Mine are all on just a good balanced diet with good grazing in the summer and fed a nutrtionally balanced feed and quality hay during the winter months. Sooo maybe the OP does have a point after all? Because more and more it really is starting to look like some do have an obsession (on both sides of the divide I hasten to add)

It's really interesting that you say shoeing is considered suspect where you are (US?) but rather than suggesting obsession on the part of those on the forum, it makes me wonder what the differences are? Why is barefoot, unshod, whatever you want to call it, apparently more straightforward where you are?

Is it possible that in this wet, muddy country, with managed pasture designed over the years for milk production, owners have to be more obsessional in order to do what comes easy where you are?

Have to say I've learnt so much from the BFers on here and find it all fascinating

 

[JFTDWS]

I answer people's questions when they ask them on here and when other people give contradictory advice that I do not think is right for the poster who asked the question, I ask them to explain more. If they choose to engage in an argument and I think they are wrong, I will tell them why I think they are wrong in exactly the same way as they are telling me that I am wrong. That's just good argument and discussion.

Actually, in my opinion, for a discussion to be "good" both parties have to be prepared to consider the other's opinion, and you appear so convinced of the research you quote, and so entrenched in your own opinion that shoes are evil, that you will not consider any other perspective. And thus, yes I do believe you are preaching.

Threads like these, where you (and others, on both sides of the argument) pick holes in other people's choices (the implication of your previous post that another poster shoes her horse because she didn't bother to rehab it) don't, in my opinion, do your cause any favours. Solicited advice is one thing. Advice to put shoes on a lame horse is one thing (though you may not agree with it). Unsolicited "advice" about why barefoot didn't work for another poster is just unnecessary.

 

[BeesKnees]

I think it is no more damaging than other management choices which are common in this country, and that it is similarly impractical to avoid shoeing some working horses. I actually don't care whether people choose to shoe or not, and I don't see why you feel it is your business to preach at people whose opinions differ from your own.

To be fair, if someone comes on a thread about Bf and states that their horses can't go without shoes, it is understandable that people with a lot of experience will ask questions!

Really cptrayes can't win, when she makes it clear she doesn't mind either way what people do, you have a go, and when she asks them about their BF management as she might have suggestions on how issues could be managed, you have a go!

 

[JFTDWS]

To be fair, if someone comes on a thread about Bf and states that their horses can't go without shoes, it is understandable that people with a lot of experience will ask questions!

Really cptrayes can't win, when she makes it clear she doesn't mind either way what people do, you have a go, and when she asks them about their BF management as she might have suggestions on how issues could be managed, you have a go!

But it's NONE of their business, when that poster doesn't have an issue, and hasn't asked for their help. This isn't a "barefoot" thread, it's a forum thread - why does this forum seem so obsessed with barefoot? And that is a question which solicits answers from all sides of the equation - barefooters, unshod, shod, where nobody has a monopoly on what is "best".


eta, my comments above about what constitutes a good discussion mean I'm not going to respond on here any more. I'm not arguing for argument's sake, I've made my point - which ultimately is about why this forum gives (I think) a skewed perspective on this particular debate.

 

[mcnaughty]

Why use the emotive word "obsession"?

OP is just trying to start a fight, I suggest we ignore.... bet some people cannot help themselves though! I've only read page 1, wonder how it is going??

LOL - 16 pages later! ....

I will now put my little oar in - I have two - one shod, one not. Shod horse is slightly pigeon toed and after leaving to see if she would go barefoot, decided against as her conformation was not permitting it. The other - welsh a is barefoot - of course!! I mean, who on earth would put shoes on a welsh a!! Guess which one was walking round on snowy stilts this evening ;-) Both have their merits - both their faults - no obsession here but lets leave everyone to their own wishes and beliefs and stop these stupid posts that start arguments for the sake of it!!

 

[Enfys]

I think you are not only in the States, but in a part of it which is very favourable to barefoot horses and where MOST horses have no shoes on?

You really aren't in a good position to judge about how much effort can be needed to keep a horse in dank wet UK with severe mineral imbalances in a very high proportion of grazing, with farriers and vets who are taught that shoes are absolutely required for any horse that is in hard work, especially on roads.

I have friends who trained trimming in the US and who live in the US and it's a different world, horsewise!

Wooooooooo, sits back and waits

 

[Spring Feather]

Is it possible that in this wet, muddy country, with managed pasture designed over the years for milk production, owners have to be more obsessional in order to do what comes easy where you are?

Possible. Except for certain areas over here, most horses are kept on large acreages. We have a lot more land available so can keep horses in larger pastures. We would probably have all of the same problems as you have over there (muddy wet pastures) if we kept horses in little 2-3 acre paddocks, most people where I live don't. However there is another difference where I live in that large farms tend to have underground drainage therefore although we get rain and a heck of a lot of snow each winter, the water can drain away easily and quickly therefore mud is a very short lived thing here for the majority of animals kept on larger farms. I still see small places with horses in little paddocks and the paddocks look the same as the pictures I see on H&H where some horses are in what could be described as muddy wallows. Soil structure is global and changes depending on where about in the country you are, so just like some of you have clay soil and some have sandy loam, well we have exactly the same soil structures here too. We are probably a lot more rocky than you and a lot of land is rugged and barren in many areas (not mine, my area is a big cropland and dairy farm area). The worked land however is usually stone-picked on most farms. We have roads made of the same as your roads are, our horses ride on these roads. We have dry areas and wet areas and all in all the soil in our respective countries isn't any different.

 

[Spring Feather]

Wooooooooo, sits back and waits

I was good and restrained

 

[tallyho!]

Prior to this forum I honestly never though about the terms because I simply didn't have shoes on most or one was shod. So I use barefoot and unshod, both simply meaning that they don't have shoes on.
None have different diets and none have anything put on the hoof (my farrier was happy with me putting some things on as would just waste my money, unhappy with some as could do damage) and no hoof boots as they've got hardy feet. No youngsters are yet ridden so if the need arises I will look at different options at the time and the broodies are fine without.
The most important thing to me is getting a good farrier/trimmer who is willing to do the best thing for the horse and happy to direct you but also listen to queries/suggestions you have. With a friends horse whose feet were crumbling shoes were whipped off (told it needed shoes as bad feet) they are now rock solid and look great. Not the case for all but in this one the shoes were causing the crumbly feet, not saving them.

I think it can get very preachy on both sides and think the majority of horses don't need shoes if managed in a certain way, but that way isn't always possible and some horses simply need them. I think they are also invaluable in some remedial work.

Outwith this forum, neither have I heard about all this palaver with keeping horses unshod and I never ever hear anyone referring to their horse as barefoot. The only time, and I know I keep harping on about it, any eyebrows are raised where I live is if someone has shoes on their horses feet and everyone automatically thinks there's something wrong with the horse if it has to wear shoes. I have over 50 horses, none wear shoes (although I certainly would have them shod if I felt it best for the individual horse), none have all these extra special lotions and potions or super-duper feedstuffs Mine are all on just a good balanced diet with good grazing in the summer and fed a nutrtionally balanced feed and quality hay during the winter months. Sooo maybe the OP does have a point after all? Because more and more it really is starting to look like some do have an obsession (on both sides of the divide I hasten to add)

Not everyone has a stud farm or your backgrounds and can say what you have both said. Most people who "obsess" have one or maybe two horses and have never had an unshod horse before.

Could it be that for some it is a new experience? Could it be that learning about feet is a good thing?

Or will y continue to rub their faces in the fact that they don't have 50 horses, unshod horses is nothing new and you've been doing it for a thousand years and other people are stupid and obsessive. What you both say also comes across as preachy and actually more than just a little patronising forgive me for saying so.

Whether or not barefoot is a palaver, for some small time owners, it has been the saviour of their horse. Put yourself in the shoes of someone less experienced and then start the name-calling.

I think those who keep harping on about how little there is to it, probably are not as experienced as they may think they are.

 

[TrasaM]

LOL - 16 pages later! ....

Both have their merits - both their faults - no obsession here but lets leave everyone to their own wishes and beliefs and stop these stupid posts that start arguments for the sake of it!!

Like lots

 

[BeesKnees]

But it's NONE of their business, when that poster doesn't have an issue, and hasn't asked for their help. This isn't a "barefoot" thread, it's a forum thread - why does this forum seem so obsessed with barefoot? And that is a question which solicits answers from all sides of the equation - barefooters, unshod, shod, where nobody has a monopoly on what is "best".


eta, my comments above about what constitutes a good discussion mean I'm not going to respond on here any more. I'm not arguing for argument's sake, I've made my point - which ultimately is about why this forum gives (I think) a skewed perspective on this particular debate.

I know you said you weren't going to continue, but I'd like to respond

None of any of it is anyone else's business. But we choose to join forums and discuss our opinions and experiences which kind of makes it other people's business!

Surely it isn't that awful to ask questions on a forum is it? If people are that worried about not having to answer them then they don't have to post about their own experience. It isn't just BF threads that elicit such questions and critique even when this hasn't been asked for.

And lets face it. It isn't just a forum thread is it! in fact many people thought the Op was a troll, precisely because they'd chosen such a controversial topic. As far as I can see (and I am neutral, never had a horse BF) , the anti BF-ers are just as guilty of being critical, judgemental and snarky.

 

[Shysmum]

TBH, is see all this "debating" as quite educational - it's threads like these that I have learnt a lot from.

And fwiw, if my farrier ever told me Shy needed shoes on, with a very good reason, i would listen to him. I am sure I speak for a lot of barefooters there.

 

[Spring Feather]

Oh Tallyho, you miss my point entirely! Perhaps I did not explain it well enough, I probably didn't. I don't care whether people shoe their horses or don't shoe their horses, what I can't understand is all this feeding special barefoot feed (you're right I have NO experience of this barefoot feed ... what is it anyway?) and multiple lotions and potions that sound like they are exclusively for barefooters. Surely everyone, regardless of whether their horse is unshod or shod feeds an appropriate diet and does what they can to keep their horses body and feet in the best condition?

 

[Alyth]

The thing is it is not special barefoot feed. It is NOT feeding the high sugar/molassed foods that are currently sold and marketed as being good for horses.......

 

[tallyho!]

Oh Tallyho, you miss my point entirely! Perhaps I did not explain it well enough, I probably didn't. I don't care whether people shoe their horses or don't shoe their horses, what I can't understand is all this feeding special barefoot feed (you're right I have NO experience of this barefoot feed ... what is it anyway?) and multiple lotions and potions that sound like they are exclusively for barefooters. Surely everyone, regardless of whether their horse is unshod or shod feeds an appropriate diet and does what they can to keep their horses body and feet in the best condition?

Easier said than done I'm afraid to say

There is no special diet. That is made up by people who have a bone to pick.. It's simply a low sugar forage based diet with little or no grain. How is that fancy or special?

When advice is given about minerals etc, its usually in context as a response to a possible imbalance.

Lotions and potions are your very simple antibacterial and antifungal to help kill off thrush. How is that fancy or exclusive?

I'm using your words here. Your words that you have chosen to label "obsessive barefooters" with. But that is your prerogative, I know.

However, your tone is somewhat patronising when you seem so baffled at this new world of barefoot you find yourself in when you have been keeping horses unshod in a very practical way for many years. That is fine. I simply turn green with envy but you must be able see Spring Feather, that not everyone has been feeding a good diet or has had a horse without thrush as a result.

Therefore, to those people, it is revolutionary and it IS easy to become "obsessed".

I fail to see why that is so bad. And I am glad you agree that good diet should be at the heart whether shod or unshod...

The "fancy" feeds are those that come in multi-coloured bags with multi-coloured pellets and squashed vegetables in it!

 

[BeesKnees]

Oh Tallyho, you miss my point entirely! Perhaps I did not explain it well enough, I probably didn't. I don't care whether people shoe their horses or don't shoe their horses, what I can't understand is all this feeding special barefoot feed (you're right I have NO experience of this barefoot feed ... what is it anyway?) and multiple lotions and potions that sound like they are exclusively for barefooters. Surely everyone, regardless of whether their horse is unshod or shod feeds an appropriate diet and does what they can to keep their horses body and feet in the best condition?

And as I said before, the useful thing then would be to look at what is different for you and your situation, that makes BF straightforward?

 

[Spring Feather]

The thing is it is not special barefoot feed. It is NOT feeding the high sugar/molassed foods that are currently sold and marketed as being good for horses.......

Ah well there you go, I don't feed molassed or high sugar feeds so my horses must be on a 'barefoot diet' then. Who'da thunk it!

 

[Miss L Toe]

Oh Tallyho, you miss my point entirely! Perhaps I did not explain it well enough, I probably didn't. I don't care whether people shoe their horses or don't shoe their horses, what I can't understand is all this feeding special barefoot feed (you're right I have NO experience of this barefoot feed ... what is it anyway?) and multiple lotions and potions that sound like they are exclusively for barefooters. Surely everyone, regardless of whether their horse is unshod or shod feeds an appropriate diet and does what they can to keep their horses body and feet in the best condition?

Which lotions and potions are these please, most barefoot horses get a good diet if they need it, and no lotions, as they don't.
I feed micronised linseed which is great for skin, joints, and the digestive process, I also feed minerals, and guess what.... he now has a dark coat colour all year round, and his skin is no longer itchy.
The feed has no added molasses, the diet is based on high fibre, oil, and minerals. I would feed this to all horses: shod or not.
I realise that this does not fit with the marketing ethos of feed manufacturers, they want to sell more product, I want to feed less!

 

[Jasper99]

I have found this thread very interesting to say the least.

I know I started with a bang, posting a very controversial topic, therefore leading lots of people to think I was a troll

I haven't intentionally tried to spark an argument, but from the huge amounts of debate I have learnt a great deal, so thank you HHO'ers!

 

[Spring Feather]

And as I said before, the useful thing then would be to look at what is different for you and your situation, that makes BF straightforward?

Yes it's interesting and I don't have the answer however one thing I'm considering right now in light of this conversation; how about genetics? Because shoeing horses is not desirable where I live, could it be that a greater proportion of the horses who can't cope without shoes are maybe not bred from or wind up at the slaughter house?

 

[Miss L Toe]

Hi everyone, I'm new *waves*

Now before you start, I'm not a troll, I have been lurking for a long time and I wanted to join purely to ask the question :

Why is there such an obsession with going barefoot?

Please don't kill me

Why is there an obsession with shoeing horses when it may be unnecessary, have long term disadvantages, short term inconvenience and added costs?
Disadvantages of shoeing:
Needs to be done regularly by a skilled farrier.
Torn off shoes can cause injury and/prevent use of the animal.
Kicking may cause serious injury to others horses and personel.
The foot adapts to the shoe and not in a good way, the foot is designed to use the frog and other parts of the hoof, shoeing blocks this.
Advantages of barefoot horses:
There is evidence that certain serious conditions are relieved by removing the shoes and not by nailing on heartbars or other devices.
It is much safer to ride on roads without shoes as the grip is better.
The unshod horse is not exposed to excessive concussive forces.

In my experience, there are many horses which are not shod often enough, and many unshod horses in fields which are not trimmed often enough.

 

[tallyho!]

Yes it's interesting and I don't have the answer however one thing I'm considering right now in light of this conversation; how about genetics? Because shoeing horses is not desirable where I live, could it be that a greater proportion of the horses who can't cope without shoes are maybe not bred from or wind up at the slaughter house?

There has been debates previously about genetics and it is an interesting one. I found out from HHO that actually the Connemaras do have genetic predisposition to certain foot pathology.

However, the majority of any genetics debate keeps getting disproved as horses of breeds that have "notoriously" bad feet such as tbs and shires for example seem to do very well given the chance to eat the "special barefoot diet" I kinda like the irony now...

 

[Oberon]

Oh Tallyho, you miss my point entirely! Perhaps I did not explain it well enough, I probably didn't. I don't care whether people shoe their horses or don't shoe their horses, what I can't understand is all this feeding special barefoot feed (you're right I have NO experience of this barefoot feed ... what is it anyway?) and multiple lotions and potions that sound like they are exclusively for barefooters. Surely everyone, regardless of whether their horse is unshod or shod feeds an appropriate diet and does what they can to keep their horses body and feet in the best condition?

I feed Fast Fibre, Speedibeet, linseed and Pro Balance + (and copra for the old boy).

No lotions or potions (save a tub of Red Horse Field Paste in the tack room).

I don't understand what is complicated about my regime?

I've used HappyHoof, D&H Meadowsweet, D&H 16+, Allen and Page's Old Faithful, Simple System feeds.......over the years.

But I couldn't continue to put my faith in the feed companies any more at the cost of my horse's health.

My horses have never looked better than when I scaled it all down to basic fibre, linseed and a decent mineral balancer that tallys with what is funky about my grazing/forage.

When people say, "I feed a balanced diet".....Are they really? Balanced to what?
How do we know what is balanced unless we know what is unbalanced with the bulk of the horse's diet (the forage)?

The issue surrounding barefoot horses and diet is that many barefoot horses simply won't tolerate any dietary snafoos on our part. If we get it wrong (and I've made pretty much every mistake there is to make over the years ) - the hooves will tell us we've got it wrong.

A lot of owners who pm me looking for dietary suggestions are wasting lots of cash, duplicating feeds by trying to ensure their horses are covered for everything - and they end up with an unhealthy horse at the end of it. Most of the time it's about trying to get the owner to scale it all down.

I suspect with 50 horses though - you are already at this stage and feeding sensibly. That's probably why you are so mystified what all the fuss is about

 

[Oberon]

I have found this thread very interesting to say the least.

I know I started with a bang, posting a very controversial topic, therefore leading lots of people to think I was a troll

I haven't intentionally tried to spark an argument, but from the huge amounts of debate I have learnt a great deal, so thank you HHO'ers!

You will find that any barefoot thread eventually turns into a bun fight

It's usually Tallyho's fault

 

[amandap]

Spring Feather, are most of the horses in your area never shod? I am wondering if shoeing from young age and back to back (with no or few breaks) shoeing is a factor here in UK. Many people have problems when they remove shoes and hooves are underdeveloped, contracted, thrushy etc. Here, shoes are sometimes removed as a last resort after continuing problems of various sorts from constantly losing shoes to navicular.
The norm here seems to be shoeing if in work but I think this is changing. It will be interesting to see what happens as more horses never shod become more common.

 

[BeesKnees]

I have found this thread very interesting to say the least.

I know I started with a bang, posting a very controversial topic, therefore leading lots of people to think I was a troll

I haven't intentionally tried to spark an argument, but from the huge amounts of debate I have learnt a great deal, so thank you HHO'ers!

It's usually the way. Lots of strong opinions, but lots of great stuff in between the rowing

 

[Miss L Toe]

If my horse could work without shoes then I wouldn't bother shoeing her, why would I shoes are expensive and not wearing shoes is not a new concept. To be honest although I am interested in hoof health etc, we have a lot of gravel/hardcore tracks here and I expect most horses would struggle, I struggle in my wellies! So she has shoes on all 4 currently although may try with backs off.*

Each to their own, I just find it amazing how much effort people put in, feeding endless hay all year as the grass is all wrong and supplements and 'barefoot trimmers', oh and hoof boots!

Not withstanding your own tracks, what is wrong with feeding a high fibre forage [hay] all year round rather than lush Rygrass, which is notorious for sugars and is bad for laminitis. I don't see a problem , if that is what people think is better for their horse.
Boots, yes some people use boots, what is wrong with that?
If they want make a bit of effort to run things the way they think is better, I can t see a problem.
If you want to keep horses you are going have to make a bit of an effort to look after them, or pay someone to do it it for you. I realise there may be people who only ride their horses, dont groom them, dont check water, feed, feet, teeth, jabs and so on, but they are in the minority.
PS if your current wellies are not up to walking on stoney tracks, I think you need to buy some decent ones, these ones sound as though they are thin soled [get it?]