Please tell me why the obsession with barefoot?

[tallyho!]

You will find that any barefoot thread eventually turns into a bun fight

It's usually Tallyho's fault

I try...

 

[Spring Feather]

Spring Feather, are most of the horses in your area never shod? I am wondering if shoeing from young age and back to back (with no or few breaks) shoeing is a factor here in UK. Many people have problems when they remove shoes and hooves are underdeveloped, contracted, thrushy etc. Here, shoes are sometimes removed as a last resort after continuing problems of various sorts from constantly losing shoes to navicular.
The norm here seems to be shoeing if in work but I think this is changing. It will be interesting to see what happens as more horses never shod become more common.

Another great point amandap! No, most horses in my area never are shod. Not as little 3 or 4 year olds just starting out under ridden work and not as oldies. Most have never seen a set of horse shoes in their lives so you certainly could be onto something there. I have my farrier come and trim my horses regularly but some others in the area don't have a farrier do their horses feet as regularly. It doesn't seem to make much difference to be honest. I like tidy feet and I notice feet so when I see other horses who aren't done as often I see that they just seem to go through a period where the feet chip for a few weeks and then the next time I'll see them the feet look nice and rounded and smooth again. It's all breeds of horses as well; TBs, standardbreds, Arabs, QHs, WBs, the lot.

 

[Oberon]

I try...

 

[Spring Feather]

Oberon, a terrific post! And maybe you have hit the nail on the head with me. I'm not a one or two horse owner (that was part of the reason for me mentioning how many I had) so I don't get drawn into all these feed companies literature. I've been feeding the same feed for years. I don't overfeed hardfeed either, which perhaps I could be guilty of if I didn't have so many horses to feed? I stick with the mix I make up myself and it seems to work. I did do a fair amount of research when I first started feeding this but since then I haven't because there's no point. I don't feed hardfeed in the summer, only in the winter (except for the broodmares, foals and oldies). I wonder if I had only 2 horses would I get sucked in with the hardfeed business or would I keep my horses differently. I don't think so as I like them living out 24/7 and there would be little point for changing the way I kept one or two to how I keep the herds. And you're most probably right, this is exactly why I don't understand the fuss, sorry

 

[Oberon]

Spring Feather, are most of the horses in your area never shod? I am wondering if shoeing from young age and back to back (with no or few breaks) shoeing is a factor here in UK. Many people have problems when they remove shoes and hooves are underdeveloped, contracted, thrushy etc. Here, shoes are sometimes removed as a last resort after continuing problems of various sorts from constantly losing shoes to navicular.
The norm here seems to be shoeing if in work but I think this is changing. It will be interesting to see what happens as more horses never shod become more common.

Pete Ramey goes even further back than this.

He believes that when we neglect to trim foals early enough, restrict them to the stable or keep them on soft ground only, the caudal hoof development stops.

The digital cushions (pink) remain flabby and never develops into firm micro-cartilage. The lateral cartilages (grey) remain weak.

So the foal gets used to keeping the load off this weak area at the back of the hoof and thus it falls further out of function.

We get to the horse being broken in - usually in the spring when the grass is at it's sweetest for our couch potato youngster who has never seen rocks/hard going .

The horse manages OK for backing.

We turn them away to mature and stuff their faces in that lovely, green and soft field......

But when we come to bring them back into proper work and start hacking out etc - those poorly developed hooves with flabby internal structures that have not been conditioned to work on hard ground......suddenly don't cope .

We call the farrier and get the horse shod.

Thus the frog and heels are totally out of the equation when it comes to loading and the digital cushions and lateral cartilages now receive very little stimulation at all......

We have horses dying of old age with the internal foot development of a foal.

I know this is true of my old boy. Despite years barefoot with all the 'best' I can give him - he still refuses to load heel first.....he's just too weak there and has never worked hard enough to remedy that .

 

[Gloi]

Just as an example I'll give you the story of my lad. I've had him for 20 years and for most of that time accepted the farrier's observation that he had rubbish feet. They were slow growing with soft, thin walls and a tendency towards contraction. He also wore his shoes very unevenly due to slight knock knees, toe out conformation of his front legs.
I spent years feeding him every hoof supplement in the sun, and every paint on lotion I could find trying to improve them to no avail.
I had him shod in the spring and rode him through the summer his feet becoming more broken with each set as they would split at the nail holes. When, usually in the autumn , the farrier could no longer find any hoof wall left to attach shoes to he would be left turned out without shoes until he grew some new wall.
He wasn't sound to ride without shoes at this stage and I tried some of the primitive hoof boots that existed then but they didn't fit well and came off all the time so I used to just leave him turned away for a good part of the winter.
About 3 years ago I did some reading about barefoot horses and spent a few months with a set of boots trying to make it work for him but the boots were wrong for him and without them his feet wore very unevenly so eventually I had him shod again.
After his feet yet again broke up I tried again and this time I have put real time and effort into getting everything right and a year and a bit later he has tough feet that are coping well with his work.

 

[Shysmum]

^^^ I wish I had had the knowledge to do this with my last horse.

 

[cptrayes]

Actually, in my opinion, for a discussion to be "good" both parties have to be prepared to consider the other's opinion, and you appear so convinced of the research you quote, and so entrenched in your own opinion that shoes are evil, that you will not consider any other perspective. And thus, yes I do believe you are preaching.

Threads like these, where you (and others, on both sides of the argument) pick holes in other people's choices (the implication of your previous post that another poster shoes her horse because she didn't bother to rehab it) don't, in my opinion, do your cause any favours. Solicited advice is one thing. Advice to put shoes on a lame horse is one thing (though you may not agree with it). Unsolicited "advice" about why barefoot didn't work for another poster is just unnecessary.

I do not agree with your definition of good debate. In many debates there is a right and a wrong. In my opinion putting shoes back on a horse before giving it an optimum diet and exercise regime does not prove that horse needed shoes and no one will ever convince me that it does. I have always accepted that some owners need to shoe but I do not accept that the horses needed shoes if the owner was lucky enough to be in a situation to provide and optimum environment.

I do not care if you perceive what I do as preaching as long as I continue to receive PMs like this from people who perceive what I write as helpful:

So if you ever get fed up saying the same stuff or listening to the same arguments please try to remember there might be other folk than those arguing for arguings sake and feeling the indescribable relief of a really poorly horse improving when there seemed no hope who really appreciate the time you take to advise and support

I am aware of a mini,um of 4 horses which are in full work today, three of which would have been dead, because of the kind of information I supply on threads like these. Whilst that situation continues I will continue to post as I do whether you like the way I do it or not.

 

[cptrayes]

I have found this thread very interesting to say the least.

I know I started with a bang, posting a very controversial topic, therefore leading lots of people to think I was a troll

I haven't intentionally tried to spark an argument, but from the huge amounts of debate I have learnt a great deal, so thank you HHO'ers!

Brilliant! Really pleased it helped.

 

[amandap]

I suspected your horses had never seen shoes Spring Feather.

Pete Ramey goes even further back than this.

He believes that when we neglect to trim foals early enough, restrict them to the stable or keep them on soft ground only, the caudal hoof development stops.

Yes, we do restrict their movement so often and put them on 'safe' bowling green fields. The better bred the more 'safe' it seems it needs to be. It's the stimulation of frog that stimulates the digital cushion and bending, twisting on uneven ground that helps to strengthen the lateral cartilages.

That photo always makes my eyes pop out of my head. The depth of the split between the heel bulbs is unreal.

 

[weebarney]

I feed Fast Fibre, Speedibeet, linseed and Pro Balance + (and copra for the old boy).

No lotions or potions (save a tub of Red Horse Field Paste in the tack room).

I don't understand what is complicated about my regime?

I've used HappyHoof, D&H Meadowsweet, D&H 16+, Allen and Page's Old Faithful, Simple System feeds.......over the years.

But I couldn't continue to put my faith in the feed companies any more at the cost of my horse's health.

My horses have never looked better than when I scaled it all down to basic fibre, linseed and a decent mineral balancer that tallys with what is funky about my grazing/forage.

When people say, "I feed a balanced diet".....Are they really? Balanced to what?
How do we know what is balanced unless we know what is unbalanced with the bulk of the horse's diet (the forage)?

Is that the cool stance copra? been googling what it is as never heard of it. Ive got a post in veterinary about my old pony who has lost his mojo and wondered if it might help.

 

[Oberon]

Is that the cool stance copra? been googling what it is as never heard of it. Ive got a post in veterinary about my old pony who has lost his mojo and wondered if it might help.

Yes, that's it.

Obi is 26, has dodgy teeth and Cushings (so I have to keep the sugar down).

He refuses to wear a turnout rug - so can be exposed to rough weather if he gets caught out in it before I can get there to bring him back in.

It seems I blinked and dropped the ball last month and he suddenly looked poor

I added a second feed a day of the Fast Fibre, Speedibeet, linseed and Pro Balance + and added 1000iu Vitamin E.

I started feeding copra with warm water in the pm and added some to his am feeds.

He also gets a scoop of Spiller's High Fibre cubes in the am (in a separate bucket as he won't eat it wet ).

I also added Protexin and UL30REX to boost his gut function.

I kept him out of all weather too.

This was before on the 16/12/12

and two week's later on 24/12/12

Before

After

 

[weebarney]

Yes, that's it.

Obi is 26, has dodgy teeth and Cushings (so I have to keep the sugar down).

He refuses to wear a turnout rug - so can be exposed to rough weather if he gets caught out in it before I can get there to bring him back in.

It seems I blinked and dropped the ball last month and he suddenly looked poor

I added a second feed a day of the Fast Fibre, Speedibeet, linseed and Pro Balance + and added 1000iu Vitamin E.

I started feeding copra with warm water in the pm and added some to his am feeds.

He also gets a scoop of Spiller's High Fibre cubes in the am (in a separate bucket as he won't eat it wet ).

I also added Protexin and UL30REX to boost his gut function.

I kept him out of all weather too.

ditto, 27 yo cushings, teeth missing, refuses to walk with a rug on but does have lots of fur.Is yours on prascend too? I didnt know if this was giving my oldie a low mood. He is getting ad lib haylage, speedibeet, linseed, probalanceand salt once a day though, maybe i need to start twice a day.

 

[Oberon]

Yes, he's on 2.5 mg a day. Last ACTH was 97......which is actually good for him

 

[dafthoss]

Any thread is made better with obi pictures

I'm not obsessed, mine is barefoot, has never had a set on in his life. I do occsionally post on threads where people are considering it but not sure how it will affect them competing, as we do compete a fair bit in most things without a problem.

 

[MerrySherryRider]

All barefooters would try to resolve the CAUSE. Shoeing is not resolving the cause, it is masking the symptom.

Glad you realise that. Sadly, others do not . Didn't mention shoeing. read what I say instead of attributing your own prejudice to me.

The problem I have with this statement of yours Horserider, is that it shows that you are completely unaware how lucky you are to live in an area where your grazing and the grass cut for your forage are already well balanced.



Your luck in where your horses live allows you to faff less than some other people do to keep their horses barefoot, and yet you mock them for it. Nice, eh?

Which area would that be then ? All eight counties ?

Very lucky to have hit the only areas with perfectly balanced grazing.

Maybe its the type of horse, I'm lucky with ? The cobs, the DWB X TB, ISH X TB, Appaloosa X cob, Hanoverian X TB and TB's.

Yes, must be very lucky.

I wouldn't use the word mocking, you do. My response to the question posed by the OP, is that yes, There is a trend for barefoot lifestyle devotees to obsess judging by the constant flurry of posts on HHO, but others manage silently without fuss, micro management and buying into the sales pitch.

You don't have to be an all dancing, all singing Barefoot member to ride a horse without shoes.

 

[Tiffany]

You will find that any barefoot thread eventually turns into a bun fight

It's usually Tallyho's fault

LOL

 

[maccachic]

My definition:

Barefoot - horses doesn't wear shoes
Unshod - horse is having a break from shoes but they will go back on.

It normal in NZ for horses to be turned out without shoes I don't know of anyone who turns out a horse shod.

There are more and more BF horses starting to get out and about.

I don't think I could trot on a tar-sealed road with shoes on these days, would feel safe and couldn't do it to my horse have you tried putting some on you feet and going for a run on seal?

Have two Bf a Standbred and a Throughbred, standardbred feet are the same year round, throughbred has metabolic sensitivities (think from previous ulcers) so get event lines and has long standing issues which are slowly being resolved.

Stb requires only chaff and minerals to maintain health, TB requires oats chaff and minerals, along with grass / hay.

TB does SJ, eventing, endurance, hunting, trekking and dressage no problems.

Stb is a part time horse for my partner but has SJ and enduranced and trekked happily.

 

[Oberon]

Any thread is made better with obi pictures .

Of course

 

[Alyth]

Pete Ramey goes even further back than this.

He believes that when we neglect to trim foals early enough, restrict them to the stable or keep them on soft ground only, the caudal hoof development stops.

The digital cushions (pink) remain flabby and never develops into firm micro-cartilage. The lateral cartilages (grey) remain weak.

So the foal gets used to keeping the load off this weak area at the back of the hoof and thus it falls further out of function.

We get to the horse being broken in - usually in the spring when the grass is at it's sweetest for our couch potato youngster who has never seen rocks/hard going .

The horse manages OK for backing.

We turn them away to mature and stuff their faces in that lovely, green and soft field......

But when we come to bring them back into proper work and start hacking out etc - those poorly developed hooves with flabby internal structures that have not been conditioned to work on hard ground......suddenly don't cope .

We call the farrier and get the horse shod.

Thus the frog and heels are totally out of the equation when it comes to loading and the digital cushions and lateral cartilages now receive very little stimulation at all......

We have horses dying of old age with the internal foot development of a foal.

I know this is true of my old boy. Despite years barefoot with all the 'best' I can give him - he still refuses to load heel first.....he's just too weak there and has never worked hard enough to remedy that .

Apart from the shoe and high heels what is that crack between the bulbs and up towards the fetlock? How can that be treated? Would lowering the heels help it heal?

 

[Alyth]

How do you want me to word it? I'm trying to express the fact that I am not obessive about whether her horse wears shoes or not.


Yes, it matters, there is more research coming out that many horses are actively damaged by shoes. The last peice I saw had a significant measurable reduction in size of the foot at the coronet band after only a few weeks. If it turns out to be the case that shoes actively damage, then the fewer which wear them, for the least possible time, is surely the way to go?

And therefore it is important that we find out which horses can and can't go without shoes and WHY. Putting shoes on a footie horse without exploring whether anything can be done to keep that horse shoe free, although it may be the only thing that particular owner can do, does not help an owner who is trying to avoid doing that.

So if an owner posts on a thread "my horse could not do it", I personally like to know what else was tried before re-shoeing, so that I can add it to the databank of advice that I would give to other people, some of whom, yes shock horror , I advise to shoe.

In a previous thread you pulled me up when I said all horses should be able to go barefoot, so that i don't derail this thread I am going to start a new one. I would appreciate your input!! Thanks.

 

[tallyho!]

Apart from the shoe and high heels what is that crack between the bulbs and up towards the fetlock? How can that be treated? Would lowering the heels help it heal?

That crack probably did not start that way but a thrush infection that has become increasingly deep seated.

Lowering the heels would only change the angle the coffin bone sits but will probably cause lameness as the change will pull on weak tendons and ligaments. Possibly even causing more lameness as the hoof wall is actually contracted around all the inner structures - squashing it all. It would not get rid of the infection either as the shoes will still clamp the heel bulbs together as you see it now.

The only way to remedy the contraction, is to remove the clamp, and rehabilitate the caudal hoof structure very gradually and treat the infection as the cleft "unfolds".

Basically, that hoof needs a break from shoes. Desperately.

Here, you can see a contracted heel "unfold"... not as severe as the photo you saw. P.S. took 5 months.

 

[cptrayes]

Which area would that be then ? All eight counties ?

Have you had hardworking barefoot horses in eight counties? And never had one that went footie?

In that case, yes, I would say that you were very lucky indeed. I couldn't do every horse I have done here without mineral balancing and I know a lot of other people in the same boat.

You don't have to be an all dancing, all singing Barefoot member to ride a horse without shoes.

My suspicion is that you do if you have multiple hores and you never had to resort to shoes with any horse unless it is to stud them.

I'm a very proud member, two horses would be dead and another pensioned off at 8 now if I hadn't learnt to sing and dance

 

[cptrayes]

In a previous thread you pulled me up when I said all horses should be able to go barefoot, so that i don't derail this thread I am going to start a new one. I would appreciate your input!! Thanks.

I don't see a conflict Alyth. There are some horses that either cannot or should not go without shoes, in my view. Buy in my view also, the cannots are very few and almost certainly have metabolic diseases. Se you on the other thread

 

[amandap]

Apart from the shoe and high heels what is that crack between the bulbs and up towards the fetlock? How can that be treated? Would lowering the heels help it heal?

I think it's due to severe contraction and probable infection getting in. My belief is the only way to treat it is to remove shoes, probably trim the excessively long walls very sympathetically, treat infection and allow the hoof to decontract and get stronger through comfortable movement and work.

 

[FfionWinnie]

Ah well there you go, I don't feed molassed or high sugar feeds so my horses must be on a 'barefoot diet' then. Who'da thunk it!

I think that's the point. It seems complicated but actually its not. None of mine are shod either and only one gets any food at all except hay and that's because she is in hard work, clipped and living out 24/7. It did seem quite complex before I started it (previous to these ones I have always shod everything because that's what we did!) but actually its dead easy. Fast fibre, speedibeet and micronised linseed. They already had mineral licks. It's a less fancy diet than I fed my previous horses, and I have absolutely no lotions or potions!

 

[Spyda]

Hi everyone, I'm new *waves*

Now before you start, I'm not a troll, I have been lurking for a long time and I wanted to join purely to ask the question :

Why is there such an obsession with going barefoot?

Please don't kill me

Ultimately? Because it's cheaper! Unfortunately I can't get away without front shoes (mare is remedially shod for severe bench knee conformation) but I don't shoe behind. And my mare is a big heavy WBxTB with less than wonderful hoof conformation and still manages fine with up to 25 miles per week of hilly 100% road work. I'm a lot happier paying £42 every 5 weeks to the farrier than £75 for a full set of shoes. It's win-win all round

 

[jinglejoys]

Never had a shod mule so why start (Ever been kicked by a mule?Believe me you don't want shoes on one that does Lol)

 

[MerrySherryRider]

Have you had hardworking barefoot horses in eight counties? And never had one that went footie?Yes, over the years, I have liveried horses over 8 counties and in a greater number of yards and farms. Yes, I have had to deal with horses' feeling footie, but its not rocket science, reduce the time at grass during peak hours and work them steadily on a soft surface to increase fitness/metabolism and balance calorie input/output. Pretty basic stuff.

In that case, yes, I would say that you were very lucky indeed. I couldn't do every horse I have done here without mineral balancing and I know a lot of other people in the same boat.

Never heard of mineral balancing with homemade concoctions until I heard about it on here. Still not sure how it works if horses rotate between different pasture through the year and graze during extremes of wet and dry weather.




My suspicion is that you do if you have multiple hores and you never had to resort to shoes with any horse unless it is to stud them.

Yes, I have had shod horses when they needed to be shod, but never as a permanent measure and always for a specific reason. I prefer them unshod and the last shod horse I had,a 13 year old BSJA mare came to me with lameness issues, received excellent remedial farriery until she came to the point where she could loose the shoes and her feet were so strong that she trotted over a stony yard the next day as though she had been metal free all her life.

I'm a very proud member, two horses would be dead and another pensioned off at 8 now if I hadn't learnt to sing and dance
I'm glad your horses have done so well under your care and I respect your commitment. My experience has been different to yours, perhaps my luck has been that my horses came to me as youngsters with good conformation apart from the aforementioned older mare, but even she has excellent feet, she was just unlucky in that her previous owners saw her as a jumping machine and neglected to repay her with good care.

I accept that some owners shoe without thinking, but some of the extreme and intolerant posts from barefooters have been difficult to swallow.

I recall a post some time ago, from someone with 5 horses, who worked full time and competed 3 of them. Desperately worried about one of them and looking for help, she was given advice that would have taken her so long each evening, in the dark, that it would have been at the expense of her other horses. She wanted to comply but it was unrealistic and instead of the barefooters moderating their plan, she was rudely and aggressively told that she shouldn't have 5 horses if she couldn't care for them and should get rid of them. Helpful ? Nope. Demoralising and unkind ? Yep.

I doubt I could find that post, but it was typical during that period of the incredibly aggressive, holier than thou attitude of the BF, thankfully, the tone has become generally more reasonable in recent times, but it was due to my shock and sense of injustice at the treatment of a caring and desperate poster that prompted me to challenge such extremist views.

 

[cptrayes]

I doubt I could find that post, but it was typical during that period of the incredibly aggressive, holier than thou attitude of the BF, thankfully, the tone has become generally more reasonable in recent times, but it was due to my shock and sense of injustice at the treatment of a caring and desperate poster that prompted me to challenge such extremist views.

Was that me? NOPE

I have always accepted that some horses need shoes and I'm at a loss to understand why you seem to word your posts to me as if I am aggressively telling people that they don't need to shoe their horses.