"POA" - sellers - why not just say what the price is?

Goldenstar said:
If I see the time waster and dreamer thing I won't call full stop. For POA I think think they will suss out who I am or see my car they will try to double the price so I don't bother ringing
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Definitely this happens. I was at some elite auctions in Germany...and the serious well-known riders don't go themselves - they send someone unknown to look at horses for them. Otherwise it drives the price up on the horse, and gets lots of other buyers interested in it if so-and-so pro rider likes it.

In effect, price is a psychological game, when it is unknown, and is influenced by many factors.

Goldenstar said:
I don't mind dealer / producers who put the horses in price bands that quite a good way when a young horse is in work and will be increasing in value .
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Agreed. Price bands are the way forward.
 
Agree totally with TS about the time waster comment it's unlikely to deter the determined Time waster and just puts off the slightly shy and to me it says this person is likely it be deeply unpleasant to deal with so I toddle on to another horse.
 
I don't get the 'not wanting friends/other people to know' argument. If anyone wants to know they'll just ring up and ask, won't they?

I hate POA as I think it usually means "the most we can get you to pay". But my last horse was and I'm glad I contacted the dealer because I told them he was out of my budget, and we left it at that. But a few days later they came back and asked what my budget was, and agreed to sell him for that if I could complete the deal before their mortgage payment was due. He was a cheap horse for what he is!
 
measles said:
Surely the viewing and price hike on viewing the potential client's car issue (which I could imagine some unscrupulous people doing) doesn't happen as surely, surely people don't view horses without knowing their price? POA may put people off but if they do call the price is always ascertained before viewing? No one would view a horse when they had no idea of the price ...?
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Very true!


I would also say if the horse is in a sales yard situation, POA might be a very understandable way to go as the ad might very well be placed before the agent has had a chance to properly assess the horse. We had a horse in that had come from a dressage background, never jumped, and was being priced as a not very successful mid level dressage horse. A couple of days into having him he was jumping a good sized course, doing automatic changes and suddenly worth quite a bit as a working hunter type. So his "value" when he walked in the door was considerably lower than it was by the time people were coming to see him.
 
You do view horses without knowing prices in advance at dealers and breeders who will have several for you to see this has happened to me I will know there are say six horses priced between 10 and 30 k in the age and size range I am looking for and nothing esle when I get there.
 
Andiamo said:
Agreed. Price bands are the way forward.
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I hate price bands more than POA :D

A big dealer up here advertises in bands. 10k to 15k. What does that mean - is the horse 10k or 15k, one's in my budget and the other is way outside it - do I ring or not?
 
measles said:
Surely the viewing and price hike on viewing the potential client's car issue (which I could imagine some unscrupulous people doing) doesn't happen as surely, surely people don't view horses without knowing their price? POA may put people off but if they do call the price is always ascertained before viewing? No one would view a horse when they had no idea of the price ...?
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Hmmm. I did. Quite randomly, in hindsight, it did work out positively :) But as I mentioned, I think it was a one-off. And I was a complete beginner at the time, and didn't know any different! ;)
 
Andiamo said:
Definitely this happens. I was at some elite auctions in Germany...and the serious well-known riders don't go themselves - they send someone unknown to look at horses for them. Otherwise it drives the price up on the horse, and gets lots of other buyers interested in it if so-and-so pro rider likes it.

In effect, price is a psychological game, when it is unknown, and is influenced by many factors.


Agreed. Price bands are the way forward.
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To be fair, I don't think you can use the European horse auctions as representative for the purposes of this discussion. They are a world unto themselves! All sorts of deals get done with people buying horses back, trading goods and services etc especially in the larger events, where the goal is to drive the highest "on paper" prices, regardless of the actual money changing hands. Look at the publicity PS and company got from the sale of Poetin! I'd be very surprised if that was someone just sitting down and writing out a cheque for 6.5 million.

But yes, I very much agree with price bands. At least it gives people an idea going in what they are likely to get for their money.
 
cptrayes said:
I hate price bands more than POA :D

A big dealer up here advertises in bands. 10k to 15k. What does that mean - is the horse 10k or 15k, one's in my budget and the other is way outside it - do I ring or not?
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Fair enough, but if you have 8k to spend you do know not even to call, which is what people on the thread seem to want clarified.
 
cptrayes said:
I hate price bands more than POA :D

A big dealer up here advertises in bands. 10k to 15k. What does that mean - is the horse 10k or 15k, one's in my budget and the other is way outside it - do I ring or not?
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Haha!
But at least with £10-15K, you know roughly that it might cost somewhere in the middle, and you have room for negotiation. If it's purely POA, the seller will suss you out based on where you live, who you are, your accent, if your parents are involved & financially supportive, etc, and the price then might be £20K+ for the same horse.

I like the German & Dutch websites - you can search by your price band.
This generally works well.

However, some ads do come up with POA, or it gives a link "price on our website" - which you then follow, and it turns out there's no price on their website. My impression is they think the UK'ers are all loaded, and if they're ringing up about Dutch / German horses, then the price gets hiked. The ones I have enquired about have been hugely priced, 4 year olds, just barely backed, at 50K€, and the sellers were very abrupt as well, and won't tell you anything about the horse - and it put me off ever enquiring again about POA's.
 
TarrSteps said:
People who spend 50 or 100k on a horse don't necessarily want everyone else to know their business. And yes, there might be other people involved, taking cuts along the way. People may disagree with this but, at the upper levels, it's how deals get done and usually everyone one involved is resigned.
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This. I have advertised in this bracket, and neither me nor the potential purchasers would have wanted the purchase price being made public. If people rang up to enquire I was happy to tell them the price on the phone - okay, they could have been just being nosy but if they were that determined then so be it. I did get a very few with a budget of about a tenth of the asking price ringing up but I certainly tried to deal with them in a very sympathetic way, I've been in the sameosition myself and take the view that if you don't ask you'll never know! So while for horses under 20k I think POA is counter-productive in most circumstances, for all the reasons outlined on this thread, at the higher end of the market I have some sympathy.

ETA I would never let someone actually come and view a horse without having discussed the price, as it is a potential major waste of my and their time. So the car issue certainly isn't relevant in my case.
 
I usually don't call POA either. One time there was a nice 6 yo ex-racer for sale. Nice but no world beater. I saw a video of it doing a nice dressage test, saw pictures of it jumping greenly. I don't want to beat the world but the POA put me off. I heard on the grape vine that the POA was because seller wanted to ensure right home & he was reasonably priced.

I called. I cut straight to the chase & asked how much they were thinking. I got an amazing spiel about how at a clinic an international eventer had said the horse was definite 4* material (didn't have any eventing experience at this stage) finally got her to tell me the price.

£20,000

I literally roared with laughter & asked if the horse was so good why hadn't the international eventer bought it :D
She hung up on me
 
Decision making - please feel free to add to this, it would be good to get a comprehensive view of the decisions, from buyer and seller, that go into determining price

Decisions for buyer
- is it suitable for me?
- does it fit my criteria? (experience, age, size etc)
- can I afford it? - easy to answer if price is stated :p
- does the price fit the quality, experience, fitness, health, age, discipline of the horse? any vices?
- any room for negotiation?
- try it, discuss price, organise vetting
- vetting > pass - pay full price?
- vetting > pass but some issues - negotiate price again?
- vetting > fail - is it minor? wait two weeks and re-vet?

Decisions for sellers
- research market prices - for similar age, breed, experience
- base the price on what I paid? or on current market value? or base it on the value of my "brand", my reputation, others I've sold?
- Timelines for selling: do I want to sell fast? or am I prepared to wait to get the money I want
- if it is on the market for X period of time with no interest, do I reduce the price to increase buyer interest?
- If I price too low, buyers may think there is something wrong with the horse, and may get dealers in contact looking to make a profit.
- If I price it high, it will give the horse a certain psychological value for the buyers
- how much lower than my asking price will I accept?
- Will I accept a low price, if an amazing 5* home comes along?

What's missing?

There's a lot of research that has gone into the psychology of pricing / purchase decision-making in retail pricing, but I can't find anything with regards to horses.
 
A few years ago, I went to see a POA horse, a barely backed 4 yr old that was just off the lorry) at a major dealer's place, all their horses, to this day are POA. I liked the horse, I was told his price was £10K.

I said "great, I like him a lot, I would like to come back to try him again". I went back the following weekend. Tried him again, and decided I wanted him. The staff member who had been helping me, went to tell the seller. He came back and said he now wants £13K for him. I couldn't believe it.

I walked away, and left it at that.

When prices are not listed, there is the potential for this to happen.

Incidentally this is the same seller that the man I know bought from, (the one who drove up in his wreck of a car.) So, the tables were turned in that instance.

It's such a game.
 
Andiamo said:
A few years ago, I went to see a POA horse, a barely backed 4 yr old that was just off the lorry) at a major dealer's place, all their horses, to this day are POA. I liked the horse, I was told his price was £10K.

I said "great, I like him a lot, I would like to come back to try him again". I went back the following weekend. Tried him again, and decided I wanted him. The staff member who had been helping me, went to tell the seller. He came back and said he now wants £13K for him. I couldn't believe it.

I walked away, and left it at that.

When prices are not listed, there is the potential for this to happen.

Incidentally this is the same seller that the man I know bought from, (the one who drove up in his wreck of a car.) So, the tables were turned in that instance.

It's such a game.
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Exactly , this has happened to me I walked to.
 
Was the horse doing more than the first time you saw it? Had it shown particular talent in one area? Perhaps it would have been more sensible in a situation like that to say you would like to come back but can't for a week and will the horse still be the same price?

If the then sold that horse to someone else for 13k how did he lose out vs selling it to you for 10k? Of course, if he didn't sell it, you have a point, but if he was in the business of selling he probably raised the price for a reason.

I don't know how you would "study" pricing in horses as there is no set system and too many variables - many of them to do with human qualities - to possibly quantify one. Even things like location can change value hugely - a horse that jumps like a good show hunter is worth a lot in North America, much less here. Horses are worth what people are willing to pay.

There are other areas that work like this to some extent, even without the emotional component. Look at art. Items go in and out of fashion as tastes change, buyers come in and out of the market etc. Russian and Chinese art has shot up recently, other areas have flattened. Not even counting in the auction factor.
 
In the space of a week, the horse had done nothing. Might have been ridden a couple of times by staff. This particular dealer keeps them boxed, and feeds a muscle building supplement in high quantities to the youngsters , to try to make it look like the horse is more than it is. But the horse was exactly the same from one week to the next. No reason for an instant £3K jump in price.
 
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With me it was on the day I viewed liked the horse a lot agreed to buy rang back that evening to say the vet would ring them direct to arrange a time to be told they had decided she was worth more .
That's a time wasting seller they exist too.
 
This is where bartering comes in!

Unfortunately buying and selling horses is not like shopping in a supermarket, particularly of dealing with prof dealers.

Agree with tabledancer's reply.

Below 20k poa is no benefit to the vendor or purchaser
 
The official definition of value is "That price agreed between a willing buyer and a willing seller".

Value for a single item can vary according to the purpose of the valuation. Is it valued for insurance purposes, on forced sale, for a replacement, or sale at auction, or (perish the thought!) for meat, etc. as has been mentioned?

So, yes, arriving at the value TO YOU, whether you are the buyer or seller, it matters not, is in reality a game. Some call it negotiating. How many here sell a horse for a fixed price and don't allow for a bit of bargaining?

These matters are a real problem for me and something I think about all the time because I am fairly remote. Fine, if you live in Oxfordshire, where there will be choices. You can state a price, but up here it is equally difficult for a willing buyer to find exactly what they want.

I did sell one pony by tender. I had three equally suitable buyers interested at the price quoted (another good reason not to quote a price!) and suggested to each that they make their best offer. None objected. The pony was sold to the highest bidder. That worked and was better than an auction as I had plenty of time to post photos and videos and research the suitability of those who registered an interest. I didn't have to accept the highest or any bid either.

Maybe an on-line auction is the way to go? That seems to be the way farm livestock is increasingly sold. Bidders have the opportunity to view before bidding if that is what they want to do.

As for inflating the price when the seller sees the buyer's car, I don't see that as sharp practice. It is all part of the game. (OMG, now I'm branded as an Arthur Dailly!). I once sold a dog to a multi-millionaire Japanese motor tyre manufacturer. You think I was mug enough to charge him the same price as the gamekeeper down the road? As the saying goes, if you are expecting to find a mug in the country, it's good thing you brought your own!:D
 
I rang up about a POA horse. I could tell by his advert that he wasn't going to be that expensive and the other horses sold by the dealer were resonably priced. He looked nice though so I thought worth a call.
I asked how much he was and the dealer told me that she was selling him on behalf of a client and they wanted an improvement on the price they bought him for... Ok, so I asked what that number was. The number was about 2k higher than my budget. I told her my budget and she said I could come and see the horse as she thought her client would acccept that if it was a good home..
That was for a horse much less than 20k.
I don't think it hurts to check?! The horse in question was a good looking horse but he was being branded as an allrounder he wasn't being branded as a top showjumping event or dressage prospect. If he was I definitly would have known that POA meant out of my budget!!
 
I'm going to stick my head above the parapet here. I don't ever use POA but I also don't put prices on our website. This isn't an issue as our horses mainly sell through word of mouth and people know from our reputation that we are not ridiculously expensive. For us as a small family business this works well.

As TarrSteps said earlier horses are on a journey of development and education, and what a horse is worth when it first arrives with us is not necessarily what it is worth a week, month, 3 months or years later - that could have gone up or down. What I will always do is give a price for the horse when someone asks and honour that price, and it's the same price whether you are from a tent down the road or a member of the royal family.

For example, a client (who may read this) came to see a 4yo we had who was only just starting work over poles. She loved her but was the next day offered what sounded like a super horse on loan, so she told us she wasn't going ahead with our mare. The loan horse didn't work out and she came back to us 3 weeks later to say she would like to buy our 4yo and I honoured the initial price despite having had the mare out to her first show in the meantime and realising that she was a much better horse than we had initially thought. Her new owner got a bargain and we got a friend in her, and one who has recommended a number of other clients to us. I'd much prefer to do things this way than be sharp with one person and run, but perhaps we have the luxury of being able to take a more up front or if you want to call it less businesslike approach.
 
measles said:
I'm going to stick my head above the parapet here. I don't ever use POA but I also don't put prices on our website. This isn't an issue as our horses mainly sell through word of mouth and people know from our reputation that we are not ridiculously expensive. For us as a small family business this works well.

As TarrSteps said earlier horses are on a journey of development and education, and what a horse is worth when it first arrives with us is not necessarily what it is worth a week, month, 3 months or years later - that could have gone up or down. What I will always do is give a price for the horse when someone asks and honour that price, and it's the same price whether you are from a tent down the road or a member of the royal family.

For example, a client (who may read this) came to see a 4yo we had who was only just starting work over poles. She loved her but was the next day offered what sounded like a super horse on loan, so she told us she wasn't going ahead with our mare. The loan horse didn't work out and she came back to us 3 weeks later to say she would like to buy our 4yo and I honoured the initial price despite having had the mare out to her first show in the meantime and realising that she was a much better horse than we had initially thought. Her new owner got a bargain and we got a friend in her, and one who has recommended a number of other clients to us. I'd much prefer to do things this way than be sharp with one person and run, but perhaps we have the luxury of being able to take a more up front or if you want to call it less businesslike approach.
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What an excellent approach - a role model to other sellers.
Honest, reliable, and interested in the long-term (recommendations), rather than simply short-term gains.
It would still be helpful to have some prices somewhere though, even if just price bands, as I think they would work well in this situation with small price fluctuations due to the developing young horse.
 
Andiamo said:
What an excellent approach - a role model to other sellers.
Honest, reliable, and interested in the long-term (recommendations), rather than simply short-term gains.
It would still be helpful to have some prices somewhere though, even if just price bands, as I think they would work well in this situation with small price fluctuations due to the developing young horse.
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Thank you. What has put me off price bands is I always think they will make us look too commercial and it won't fit with what we do. We are a bit different, hence my thinking, but perhaps I am wrong on this?

ETA If someone has a lower budget I'll always help them look, not necessarily from us or for any personal gain at all, and try to help them find a nice horse somewhere. I do it because I enjoy helping people and building relationships rather than anything else. My job away from horses gives me the luxury of being able to do that and not needing to sell.

IMO more commercial enterprises would do well to think to the long term rather than making a quick buck.
 
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Totally agree, it always drives me nuts when I'm horse shopping!! I personally have never rung up a POA horse because I either feel it is a waste of my (and their) time, but also I usually feel that POA secretly means ''a hell of a lot, you better be a millionaire...'' haha :p
 
Measles approach is the taking a long view way of seeing it ,if you are always fair always try to help it advertises your buisness better than anything, people will recommend you and that's the most effective advertising of all
 
I have rung about POA horses when really desperate and my first question is always how much. Sometimes they are about right. but i don't think you ever see really good horses advertised. the ones that should be POA. The ones that deserve a big price tag sell themselves.
 
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