Pointless training rant - quirky but talented, do you persevere?

FestiveSpirit

FestiveSpirit

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I do fully appreciate that I am not the most talented rider in the world to put it mildly, but my little TB is driving me to complete insanity and I am not sure what to do?

I had a lesson today and it took an HOUR to get him working through from behind and using his back :( I just do not seem to be making any progress in terms of reducing that time to 55 minutes.. then to 50 minutes... and so on, even with my instructor/trainer's help :(

I know some of the problem is mine, my hands are awful and therefore we struggle with consistent rein contact :( But he is incredibly spooky, and starts off every lesson with his fingers metaphorically in his ears saying "la la la, I cant hear you" very loudly :(

Sorry, pointless rant I know, but I am really not sure whether to continue with him or just give up and become a happy hacker :( He is a lovely horse to have around, has a lot of talent and lovely paces, he just seems so reluctant to show it all off. He is 11 now BTW :(
 
Think it depends how much you're enjoying trying to be honest.

One thing with a consistent contact - I find on my mare that my contact is a million times better when I sit to the trot. But I know it's her not me as on other horses (including some ultra sensitive ones) my contact is consistent rising. So might be worth trying sitting trot if you haven't done so already. Also there's another horse I ride that I found difficult with contact in canter unless I go in a light seat initially; again a problem only with this one horse.
 
i know this is going to sound soft, but have you had his back and most particularly his poll checked by a good back person (qualified, ideally McTimoney Chiro, the best imho)? if not, please do. sometimes horses take a long time to get working correctly because they are in discomfort, and are saying "can't" not "shan't". it can make the most incredible difference. if your horse is blocking, not giving at the jaw or poll, not softening to the contact, there might well be a physical reason why...
are your hands "awful" because he is arguing and not softening so you have to keep asking to try to get something? or, is there another reason? if the reason is you, then the only answer is more training, more patience, etc.
 
kerilli - yes, he has had extensive physio treatment since I have had him (last session at the end of March), he was very very cold backed when I got him and it took around a year to get over that and for the physio to give him the "all clear" He has also just had a saddle fitted, and I am using prolite pads for the first time which I had hoped would make him more comfortable

My hands are definitely my problem not in reaction to him, they are slowly getting better but I know you are right in terms of more practice/patience being required there...

Megabeast - I shall try sitting trot again, he did respond well when I did quite a lot of work without stirrups so I'll try that again, thanks :)
 
kerilli said:
i know this is going to sound soft, but have you had his back and most particularly his poll checked by a good back person (qualified, ideally McTimoney Chiro, the best imho)? if not, please do. sometimes horses take a long time to get working correctly because they are in discomfort, and are saying "can't" not "shan't". it can make the most incredible difference. if your horse is blocking, not giving at the jaw or poll, not softening to the contact, there might well be a physical reason why...
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Kerilli, this is spot on!
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If your hands are bad maybe try some of the flexi-reins you can get. You could get then carl hester fantastic elastic ones which cost about £60, or get much cheaper imitations! I got some elastic rein inserts off ebay for £7, they have helped loads with my little half arab gelding who was always quite jerky and difficult to work into a consistent contact. The reins are great as you can have a consistent conact on them, knowing that the elastic will give if the horse jerks his head a bit, encouraging him to stay round rather than jerking him in the mouth. I know they don't work on all horses but might be worth a try?

Also how about lunging into elasticated sidereins to get him used to going forward into a consistent contact? Personally I like to put them on fairly low, either behind then elbow or between horses front legs to encourage them to stretch down and round rather than just pinning the head in as they can do if used too high (or just being completely ineffective!) Maybe also some work in a chambon if your horse needs to work on stretching down and rounding over his back without being too restricted infront. Make sure you only do short sessions intially so he can build up the muscle needed to use himself properly.
 
Hmmmm thanks for that AllySmalice, I am willing to try anything so might be worth a go :) I am already using (at my instructor's suggestion) an elasticated bungee when he is ridden or lunged (from the poll, through the bit rings then between the front legs to the girth) to encourage a better more consistent contact - this is definitely helping, but it is early days yet with that piece of equipment :)

It is difficult to articulate exactly how it is going wrong, but it seems that I have a few paces of 'yes, that is where he should be' then he spooks, or looks over at something, and the moment is lost? Perhaps I am just not quick enough to react to him when he does these things, and if I was it would be consistent?

I suppose the only way I will know is by asking someone else to ride him - I am going to Talland on Thursday for a lesson with Pammy Hutton, which the lovely lovely FrodoBeutlin got me for my birthday, and I am rather dreading what she is going to say to me....:(
 
Ooohhh lucky you! I hear she is rather an oppinionated lady! Though I'm sure if you're honest with her about your problems then she will try her best to help you. I'm sure it will be very interesting, and usefull! Try not to worry about it and let us know how you get on!
 
I shall do a full report with pictures :) I guess I will hear the truth, whether I like it or not, and I do like people to be straight with me :D:D
 
Are you getting a chance to ride any other horses? Perhaps something a bit less sensitive? Does your instructor ride your horse at all, then put you on when he's "through" a bit more? The problem with learning feel - whether your a horse or a rider - is you can only learn by feeling it and if you're not sure what you're looking for it's a bit like looking for a house in the woods without a map - even if you do find it, you're not completely sure how you got there and how to get back!

Have you ever tried riding him in a hackamore? Not a leverage one but one of the covered noseband "English" ones (I think they're called something else here or the term is used for another kind but that's what the rest of the world calls them.:) ) that fits on to a standard bridle? (Not a bitless bridles either, as they're meant to be used like a western bit, with very little contact unless a signal is being given.) I had quite a well trained schoolmaster I taught on and he had a "gradation" of bits depending on who was riding him, as he was very sensitive in his mouth and wouldn't go at all if the rider wasn't quite sympathetic. If I had to use him for less experienced riders (he was otherwise completely reliable and very generous so great for giving people feel) he wore a hackamore as it smoothed out the contact a bit and gave the rider a margin for error.
 
Tarr Steps you are always so interesting, thank you :) No, I dont get to ride anything other than my own horse unfortunately, but I really really like the idea of asking my instructor to start him off and get him more settled then let me get on....

We definitely got there tonight, he was going correctly, my half halts were working (and were subtle enough to be invisible!) and I was just about getting to him to stop the evasions/innatentiveness before they happened, but it just takes so long every time :(

I will go away and google the hackamore idea, I had never ever thought of that :)
 
Do you mean a Dr Cook bitless bridle?
I would try him in a bitless bridle,my big TB is very ......erm odd, and winds himself up, every now and again I pop him back in a hackamore for a couple of weeks and he seems to forget all the evasions and issues that he had brought upon himself! TB's are very very clever and you have to learn to think 20 steps in front of them, I find a bit of kidology very helpful.
It could be worse hun, my friend was laughing at Emerald at a Clear round on Saturday, she said he could only belong to someone with a sense of humour..................!
 
I have had a simialr thing with my tb . He was very high headed,tense,resistant when I first got him (ex racer so used to going fast in straight lines :) ) so I used to in my lessons have to work him long and low on a very soft.light contact which was fine for those first retraining months but when we started to introduce canter,small shapes etc it all fell apart really - bucking in the canter ,reluctant to take a firmer contact,backwards thinking (all saddle,teeth,back,poll,massage etc all done and up to date - slight bit of tension in a pectoral muscle )So I went to a clinic with a dressage rider as I was on the verge of either selling or loaning who gave me a couple of really good bits of advice (for me anyway appreciate it may not be everyones cup of tea) - he told me to stop lunging in a pessoa as the contact it gave him was too wishy washy and was basically giving him what he wants ie no pressure so he has me lunging in side reins with a rubber doughnut so that the contact was firmer and more consistent. It started off quite badly but over the period of 3-4 weeks he began to accept the contact he had been given and not fight it,back off it etc. He then concentrated on me (uh oh!! :) ) and basically said that even though I didn't realise it my horse had me exactly where he wanted me . I would ask him to canter,put my leg on ,he bucks agaisnt the leg ,I lose my seat ,I give contact away ,horse gets away with blue murder repeat to finish of another demoralising schooling session :) So he had me riding more defensively(not pretty but effective) so that when he bucked I wasn't thrown forward so much didn't give the contact (which by this time was about half the length I had been riding at ) and drove him forward . My tb is very long (nickname is titanic :) ) and I think I got into the habit of riding him longer as I felt he couldn't cope with working shorter but he actually seemed to respond to the security of a firmer more consistent contact.I know this isn't exactly your situation but just by working on the contact I can now school him for an hour with lots of canter and no bucking. He has also improved much more muscle over his back,withers,neck so something somewhere must be working now :) As mine is really backwards thinking if given the chance I literally walk a circuit on both reins and then start warm up in trot with loads of changes of reins,large circles to get him focused on what I am asking . We also do lots of transitions in our warm up as well so help keep him guessing and a bit more 'on his toes '. As a by line mine hates being ridden in any sort of half pad,prolite pad etc goes very giraffe like in them for some reason . Good luck with your lesson - I found my clinic really good at putting me and the tb back on the right track - get someone to video if you can as it is a really good reference point if you ever have a 'I can't do it' moment at home :)
 
I like the bitless (Dr Cooks etc.) for some things and many horses seem to chill out very well in them. They are often very good for getting riders to think "lighter" but I don't find them particularly good for teaching a consistent contact because that's not how they're designed to be used. That said, a few days in one might be just the ticket for the horse is this situation.

I was thinking more along this line, non-leverage, side-pull type: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitless_bridle#Jumping_cavesson . That said, I've just had a quick search and they seem to be extinct now!:( That's a shame but I guess bitless bridles have stolen their market niche. Western side pulls are still around, though - I have one of those as well, I just pad the rope noseband out.
 
You are welcome to come and play with Indi if you want to sit on something else, she will be polar opposite to Bob, but a change is as good as a rest and it'll give you a chance to work on your own issues?
Hack down on Bob and we'll do swapsies for a session :p

I get the impression that Bob needs to be laughed at when he gets silly and tense, sort of 'haha, silly pony'.... I know at times all you will want to do is verbally snap at him/give him a boot in the ribs/a slap down the shoulder but I really think that you just need to ignore it and carry on, deep breaths, stay relaxed and just generally be chilled out about whatever he does underneath you? He's spooky but I get the feeling that he worries about getting it wrong too?

Has his latest bout of 'I can't hear you' come since you've started putting the pressure on yourself since starting BD?

P.S...... Am having to retract my offer of pasture mix :p Completely shot myself in the foot as I only had it to bribe Pancake to eat her antibiotics. Got fed up of tripping over the remains, offered it to you tinking I didn't need it anymore and BAM, infection started back up. Bloody animal!

P.P.S.... Have a Dually you could borrow to try riding in before splashing out on a proper bitless bridle?
 
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Sorry got sidetracked by a phone call, thanks very much for your input everyone it really is much appreciated and has given me lots of ideas/food for thought :):)

Bounty - I will take you up on that offer :D You can try the small irritating one and see how you can get on, then we can swap if we like each others horses :p:D:D
 
Fully sympathise! Been there done that got the t-shirt, infact posted a similar post last year. However there is hope we have managed to come out the otherside and we are not looking back! In fact I have just entered my 1st DR tests in nearly 2 yrs with the expectation of not coming last!! :)

Beau used to try every form of resistance imaginable, every time we schooled (in the arena) we would get on and spend 30-50min in an all out fight where he would lean and yaw against the bit, go completly dead in the left or right rein (often changing in a session), barge along on the forehand, lock his knees and hocks (or so it felt) so that his paces were all stiff and jerky and impossible to sit and locking all the muscles in his back so that you were sitting on a piece of dead meat with a pair of legs infront and behind. Oh and the favorite: suddenly find 100's of monsters so that laps of the arena were more a series of Z as we lept sideways.

We dealt with this for about 3yrs, only becasue in the end he would give up and go so nicely and with such ease and class that we persisted (that and put a jump infront of him and he was a different horse - light in the hand, reponsive, collected etc but only if you jumped at least once every 3-4 min). Recently we have had a major break through only getting 10- 15min of minor resistance then brilliance (oh he is 11 this year too).

Ok end of waffle what we found worked best to get round the above mentioned was:
- lunging in just a headcollar but making him do loads of transitions between paces and with in and lots of small circles lengthening into a larger circle then back in etc so that he had to either pick him self up and use his back end or fall over (everytime he fell over his own feet for not paying attention we grumbled at him). Then riding him in the round yard doing the same with minimal contact.
- on rides and in the arena making him do a really really slow, mincing walk on quite a short contact, so that he had to think about where every foot was going, doing it down hill really got his hocks underhim. Then doing short periods of a really slow joggy trot, not just in a straight line, small circles, serpentines etc.
- Days he was leaning on the forehand being really pigheaded we would ride forward into a decent trot round the outside then start riding circles, serpentines any shape on a light contact (minimal support from reins) riding mainly from the seat so again he had to either come back and pick himself up or fall over (which = a verbal telling off).

When he shied we found that it was best to ignore him (and once you found the saddle again) and contiue as if nothing had happen, else he would get all het up and switch into TB panic mode that was the end of any rational behavoir for the day.

So don't give up there is hope! Think positive (and maybe mention glue factories in his ear next time he is being a sod!)
 
What is he like out hacking? Sometimes you need to think outside the box a bit with horses like this and con them into doing little bits of schooling when they least expect it, so as to take some of the pressure off you and him. If you can get him to do five minutes of nice work in odd corners of fields when you're out, then you can build that up to 10 minutes here and there and then 15 minutes etc etc. A full hour or more in the school working hard is actually quite a big ask if you've got a horse that's putting up walls mentally.

One of ours is obtuse with formal schooling (entirely the fault of humans - he was seriously over produced for the show ring when he was younger) and it is frustrating because he can go beautifully when he puts his mind to it. However, with slipping the schooling in when he isn't expecting it he does go quite sweetly these days. We've had an understanding instructor too, who will come and give us a lesson in the corner of some random field, making sure the lessons are very varied and include plenty of fun stuff for him too so that he doesn't see it as difficult and then doesn't get the chance to put the walls up.

It will help you to ride other horses, too.
 
Well, I had a similar problem, although my boy was 3.5 when I got him so at least he has the 'baby' excuse! He was an absolute s*it for about a year and a half, but I kept going and he is now one of the most incredible horses I have ever sat on. Yes, he still has his 'moments' but he is largely very awesome indeed :D Keep going is basically what I'm saying. It will come together I'm sure :)
 
I feel your pain, my mare is very much like this, always spooky and unable to concentrate. She's 8 now and shows talent when working well but take her to any place new and she doesn't hear me at all.

With her it's parly evasion, partly her being terrified of lots of things, she is spooky all the time, not just when ridden.

But she is getting better slowly, I'm finding if I have lots of ideas and tools in the bag to deal with her spookyness then we can usually overcome it one way or another but it can by so trying.

Good luck and let me know if you find a cure!
 
I haven't read all the replies so apologies if any of this is repetition!

Has someone else ridden your horse and if so it he any better with anyone else?

If it is your hands and contact that are the issue, perhaps a lunge lesson or pilates would help to improve your core stability and hence you hands.

Can you access the BD forums? There was a really good post on there about contact issues - very long but lots of very helpful suggestions!

I'm sure the lesson with Pammy will be really helpful and fun.
 
Alright, so as not to repeat what everyone else has said (though I agree with a lot of it), is it worth getting a 'balance strap' for you to use when riding?
They have special ones, but basically just a flash strap or anything similar through the D-rings of your saddle. It'll give you something to either hold or to just slip your little finger through, and keep your hands more still. http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/horsecare/article.php?aid=105866

Very brief article there if you're curious.

Just a thought - it might help, who knows :)
 
Since this has been bounced I thought I might as well add to it..... and admit that it was clearly proved to me yesterday that it is me not him :(:(:(:(:(

Spacefaer sat on him for me, said she could see why I found him difficult as he does NOT want to listen, but explained that I have been shouting with my aids not whispering..... he is a sensitive soul, and when you shout he reacts by behaving as described :(:(:(:(

It is mortifying to know I have been getting it so wrong (poor Boblet :() but I suppose the positive is that I can now practice whispering my aids....

Thanks for all the advice everyone, it is much appreciated :) Thankfully Spacefaer did also say that my hands were lots better than the last time she saw me ride (a few months ago) so I shall just go away and quietly practice :o
 
Still hands are SO important, really don't underestimate what difference a good pair of hands can make.

Nobody is born with perfect hands, so just concentrate on keeping them still and soft and eventually you will be able to do it.

Is your lesson tomorrow/ What time? SO looking forward to reading all about it x
 
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