Pointy Vertebrae?

[FlyingCircus]

I don't seem to learn from my previous lessons of throwing money at my mare and have now also done a back xray to rule in/out kissing spines.

She doesn't have kissing spines but her vertebrae where the back of the saddle sits are...weirdly spiky.

I'll try to upload a pic.

Has anyone else had this? What is it from? Did it cause a problem?

Waiting on my vet ringing me.

 

[FlyingCircus]

 

[Sossigpoker]

Those are probably bone remodelling that's happened due to trauma (saddle and rider) . Either ridden too young or too young and heavy rider I would assume. Only your vet can tell whether those are likely to be painful or not though.

 

[FlyingCircus]

Those are probably bone remodelling that's happened due to trauma (saddle and rider) . Either ridden too young or too young and heavy rider I would assume. Only your vet can tell whether those are likely to be painful or not though.

Hm, I've had her since 4yr old not backed. Backed her as a 5yr old after a year of groundwork and had regular saddle checks (atleast twice a year, often more). I'm 9 stone and she's a 14.2 welsh. So not sure it is likely due to saddle or rider? Atleast, I hope not! As have tried to always do the right thing by her.

She has been taken so slowly and has so many problems She's 8 this year and I think has been under saddle consistently for 6 months of 3 years and has probably cantered under saddle about 20 times

 

[Sossigpoker]

Hm, I've had her since 4yr old not backed. Backed her as a 5yr old after a year of groundwork and had regular saddle checks (atleast twice a year, often more). I'm 9 stone and she's a 14.2 welsh. So not sure it is likely due to saddle or rider? Atleast, I hope not! As have tried to always do the right thing by her.

She has been taken so slowly and has so many problems She's 8 this year and I think has been under saddle consistently for 6 months of 3 years and has probably cantered under saddle about 20 times

Probably not trauma then!
Does she show symptoms of back pain?
If not then they're unlikely to be an issue. Sometimes you see terrible x-rays and the horse seems great, sometimes you see minor changes and the horse is crippled!
What does your vet say about it?

 

[FlyingCircus]

Probably not trauma then!
Does she show symptoms of back pain?
If not then they're unlikely to be an issue. Sometimes you see terrible x-rays and the horse seems great, sometimes you see minor changes and the horse is crippled!
What does your vet say about it?

She has suspensory problems behind so I've been trying to hunt down what may have caused it. She has always been quite difficult in retrospect (struggling to work on a contact and be genuinely soft through the back), but I've put it down to my riding! Even though she has been the same with my very capable instructor.

She went to Liphook and they told me it was a training issue last Jan/Feb, then only just recently we have found the suspensory issues and now this. Am very disappointed with the vets. Mostly because she has been in pain longer than necessary but also because they wasted my insurance time by not doing a proper investigation and fobbing me off with "training issues".

 

[FlyingCircus]

Vet hasn't seen anything like it before! Which is abit alarming as he is a lameness specialist And I really trust him given he has been the only one to actually listen and help get to bottom of problems when she has seen several other vets who either thought she was sound (she wasn't) or was just being difficult through lack of training (clearly not true).

 

[sbloom]

If you want a good bodyworker Anita Miles may travel to you, just a thought, as she's fab on movement and posture and may have thoughts on this. I think if the vets have never seen it before we'll probably all draw a blank. I suspect it could well be at the root of your issues, keep us posted as it would be interesting to follow, though I really feel for you

 

[Bellaboo18]

I'd say the back two processes are very close and could potentially touch when there's a riders weight on her. The areas of concern are the whiter areas which show 'remodelling'.

If she has suspensory issues I'd say it's more likely as she's not put weight on her hinds this is the secondary issue not the other way round.

I'd be interested to hear what your vet says.

 

[ycbm]

I don't think I would ever want to put any weight on top of spikes like that, and if they can't be shaved off, then I'm afraid that would end her ridden career for me. Even a very wide gullet will stretch the skin over those points.

I can see why trying to avoid those moving inside her back would have caused compensatory suspensory issues.

I'm glad you found answers, but very sorry that it isn't better news.
.

 

[FlyingCircus]

If you want a good bodyworker Anita Miles may travel to you, just a thought, as she's fab on movement and posture and may have thoughts on this. I think if the vets have never seen it before we'll probably all draw a blank. I suspect it could well be at the root of your issues, keep us posted as it would be interesting to follow, though I really feel for you

Thankyou, she has been on rehab livery with a lovely lady in Devon who does body work and straightness training, etc. She hasn't shown any improvement really from this corrective work, indiba for the suspensory and steroids also.

So I think sadly we are all out of options. She isn't a candidate for surgery (I wouldn't put her through another, she had colic surgery last year). She gets fat on thin air, but can't be lunged due to the suspensories. I honestly don't have the time or will to walk her in hand every day to keep the weight down. So I think she will be having a summer and then will have to make a difficult decision. I've ploughed thousands of pounds into trying to fix her, or even just to understand what is going on with her and I think I just need to admit defeat.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

Sadly there are some that just can't be fixed, I'm so sorry. I have lost 3 horses younger than they should have been (6yrs and 2x11 yr olds) and it is a horrible decision to make, even when you know that it is the only one possible.

 

[Goldenstar]

You cannot put them all right it’s an extremely hard thing to go through .

 

[Lamehorses]

Thankyou, she has been on rehab livery with a lovely lady in Devon who does body work and straightness training, etc.

I'm looking for a rehab livery devon area, do you recommend yours. Can you give me details please (pm if you prefer)

Thanks

 

[rextherobber]

Thankyou, she has been on rehab livery with a lovely lady in Devon who does body work and straightness training, etc. She hasn't shown any improvement really from this corrective work, indiba for the suspensory and steroids also.

So I think sadly we are all out of options. She isn't a candidate for surgery (I wouldn't put her through another, she had colic surgery last year). She gets fat on thin air, but can't be lunged due to the suspensories. I honestly don't have the time or will to walk her in hand every day to keep the weight down. So I think she will be having a summer and then will have to make a difficult decision. I've ploughed thousands of pounds into trying to fix her, or even just to understand what is going on with her and I think I just need to admit defeat.

I'm so sorry you're in this place, there are some things we just can't fix, and it sounds like you've tried everything possible. I hope it's not too insensitive to say this, or if it's even possible, but have you thought of donating her body for research? (Possibly not to LEH though...)

 

[FlyingCircus]

I definitely recommend. The lady is called Carole and the yard is Lowton Rehab.

 

[FlyingCircus]

I'm so sorry you're in this place, there are some things we just can't fix, and it sounds like you've tried everything possible. I hope it's not too insensitive to say this, or if it's even possible, but have you thought of donating her body for research? (Possibly not to LEH though...)

I'd be interested in doing this, especially since there seems to be a lot going on when she has always been "done" very carefully and as correctly as possible. I'd have no idea how to go about doing this though.

 

[FlyingCircus]

And thankyou everyone for your comments. It really does suck, and I really feel for everyone who has had their heart broken by a horse that just isn't to be fixed.

 

[SEL]

And thankyou everyone for your comments. It really does suck, and I really feel for everyone who has had their heart broken by a horse that just isn't to be fixed.

I've been there with the vets, the "she's just lazy", the "you need to ride better" and throwing money at them desperately trying to get a solution. Mine is now retired getting fat in a paddock causing me a different kind of stress. But I have my own land which does at least help from the ££ perspective.

I suspect that's a genetic issue with the spine and there's absolutely nothing you could have done differently. You wouldn't want to risk breeding it forward and although it's desperately sad you aren't left with many options. I really feel for you xx

 

[FlyingCircus]

I've been there with the vets, the "she's just lazy", the "you need to ride better" and throwing money at them desperately trying to get a solution. Mine is now retired getting fat in a paddock causing me a different kind of stress. But I have my own land which does at least help from the ££ perspective.

I suspect that's a genetic issue with the spine and there's absolutely nothing you could have done differently. You wouldn't want to risk breeding it forward and although it's desperately sad you aren't left with many options. I really feel for you xx

We were due to move to somewhere with land that has just all fallen through. So if we do manage to get something sorted where we can have them at home, then she can be retired for the rest of her days. I just can't retire her on current yard as my field partially floods in winter, but she won't happily stand in as the yard is too busy and upsets her. There aren't really any other suitable yards nearby either, as everywhere else is herd turnout and I'd not be able to manage their grazing.

Am desperately trying to sell my house now (buyer pulled out), so I can give her a retirement home but trying to be realistic.

 

[Sossigpoker]

If you have the money I'd highly recommend a referral to Donnington Grove.

I agree with the person who said earlier that it's likely to be the secondary issue. It is possible that the bone has remodelled due to the way of moving, caused by suspensory issues. But that doesn't mean what you see in the x-ray is the source of the pain.

 

[FlyingCircus]

If you have the money I'd highly recommend a referral to Donnington Grove.

I agree with the person who said earlier that it's likely to be the secondary issue. It is possible that the bone has remodelled due to the way of moving, caused by suspensory issues. But that doesn't mean what you see in the x-ray is the source of the pain.

Having the money is part of the problem I need to not keep sinking it into the pony at this point as have spent 10k+ of my own funds then insurance money too. So think now is probably a sensible point to draw the line.

So many professionals have seen her and not helped that I've lost faith in nearly everyone at this point.

 

[gunnergundog]

Were those spinal processes ever nerve blocked and then the horse ridden again? Just asking as.......total longshot.....but I've had horses show absolutely horrendous x=ray pics yet they haven't been the cause of the pain....and of course, vice versa.

 

[sbloom]

We need to take people to task who say things are training or behavioural issues, whether vets, trainers, bodyworkers etc. It SO seldom is, we just didn't, and in some cases still don't, have the understanding and the diagnostics. I keep thinking it will end soon but it never does, and to be fair, a LOT of comments on here when people are asking for help focus on training rather than seeing it as almost certainly discomfort. We have a long way to go.

So sorry.

 

[ycbm]

Were those spinal processes ever nerve blocked and then the horse ridden again? Just asking as.......total longshot.....but I've had horses show absolutely horrendous x=ray pics yet they haven't been the cause of the pain....and of course, vice versa.

It's an interesting question, but personally I couldn't sit weight on a set of DSPs looking like that whether the horse reacted to pain relief or not.
.

 

[sbloom]

It's an interesting question, but personally I couldn't sit weight on a set of DSPs looking like that whether the horse reacted to pain relief or not.
.

Absolutely my instinct too but we are all aware of x-rays and clinical signs having little correlation. Not saying that's the case here as there are symptoms of course.

 

[SEL]

Having the money is part of the problem I need to not keep sinking it into the pony at this point as have spent 10k+ of my own funds then insurance money too. So think now is probably a sensible point to draw the line.

So many professionals have seen her and not helped that I've lost faith in nearly everyone at this point.

I never got to the bottom of EXACTLY what were causing the problems with either of my mares, but for the big mare it was obvious she just wasn't happy under saddle. I had multiple vet practices, big name Osteos, holistic bodyworkers, Chinese herbs etc etc etc. I changed her management, called in favours from top vet hospitals and used off licence drugs. Then I realised I would probably never get an answer and if I did the chances of me fixing her were probably still remote. I retired her and took the pressure off both of us.

I've never added up the cost of all that, but it would have been a lot.

You do have to draw the line somewhere and even if those spinal processes aren't THE problem then something is making her unhappy. I'm sorry your property plans fell through. Sometimes it would be nice if the universe would give us a break when we need it xx

 

[Cragrat]

I am so sorry - what a tough, horrible situation to be in.

Once again, I read on here of a horse who is incredibly lucky to have a caring, ethical owner - it is scary to think how her life might have been with someone more ruthless.

There are some interesting options put forward - if you do draw a line (and I add my voice to those that support this ) then finding out how to donate her to research would be a great thing to do.

I do also get the appeal of doing a nerve block. I understand the reluctance given the alarming looking xray, but it would be interesting, from a purely clinical persepective, to definitively say whether or not the pointy processes are actually causing pain or discomfort, especially as she has had such a gentle, careful start in life.

Good luck with the house sale - you deserve some good news!

 

[pastit]

I really sympathise because I'm going through this too. And I had the vets 'is she just lazy' bit. Mine is 6 and just been diagnosed with arthritis in the lumbars. She was injected two weeks ago, is moving a little better, but her back still looks awful, spine prominent. Like you we've barely ridden her in 2 years, and she is a 14.2 half welsh. We're heartily sick of pole work and reversing uphill and all the other rehab exercises that seem to make no difference. And I still don't know whether the lumbar problems are being caused by something else, but I can't keep throwing money at this. So I feel your pain and greatly fear that I am on the same path. Hope you get some luck and better news soon.

 

[FlyingCircus]

It's an interesting question, but personally I couldn't sit weight on a set of DSPs looking like that whether the horse reacted to pain relief or not.
.

Problem is she has a suspensory problem too at the mo, so isn't sound on that. She is also a literal saint and if it does hurt she really shows very little in terms of signs of it hurting. All her signs of being uncomfortable have always been smaller, quieter. She hasn't ever tried to drop me, buck or rear. She gets upset and flustered occasionally but hard to put it down to pain or lack of understanding as she is still quite green given her lack of work.

With such limited feedback from her, it is quite difficult to pinpoint the actual source of pain and use things like nerve blocks. She has seen so many different vets who thought she was fine when in reality she was anything but.