Policy on livery yard for in-foal pony - I'm not happy

[touchstone]

I think livery yards just aren't worth the hassle, I don't think I could stand it!

I was approached by someone wanting grazing for a sec A, which would probably have been okay (small, won't eat much, good companion etc.) They then went on to say that it was in foal and had a foal at foot - so effectively three extra!

I've also known a normally lovely natured gelding break through fencing to attack a foal, luckily the foal survived but with nasty injuries. I'm pleased I wasn't there to witness it, so I'd be very concerned for safety.

I think deliberately putting a mare in foal when there aren't the faciilites is downright irresponsible, rude and underhand and I wouldn't want a livery that behaved like that.

 

[Tonks]

Believe me, running a livery seems really lovely in theory.....but in practise, it's bloody hard work - for many different reasons to include horse's social lives, owners social lives, owners care of horses....[or lack of it at times], the law which is at best confusing, lack of sleep, every wanting a piece of you.

In short, it is stressful and unbelievably hard work. We have some lovely clients at the moment, and I wouldn't swap them for the world, but like farming, it's a 7 day a week job without many thanks, all year round and without a break......but for the most part it's my absolute life and when I'm in my fields on a lovely spring day overlooking the Somerset levels nothing can beat it. Just not sure I want to be doing it into my old age!

 

[mcnaughty]

I purchased a BOGOF mare a few years ago - and then had to move yards. The yard I moved to made it absolutely clear (because I was honest!) that the mare could not have the foal at their yard. Foals can be a pain in the backside - they are disruptive to the equilibrium of a yard.

OP you are absolutely right and quite frankly I would ask her to leave until after the foal is weaned if you feel that strongly!

As for the rest of you that jumped down the OP's throat - yes YOU WERE BLOODY RUDE!
and, for absolutely no good reason!

 

[LaurenBay]

I can't believe some of the responses to the OP.

How far along is the mare? if she still has a while I would give notice now. If she hasn't got long left, I would wait til the foal was weaned and then give her notice. Utterly irresponsible of the owner.

I am on a small yard that doesn't have the facilities for a foal, I would be fuming if someone lied and had an in foal mare! We would have to switch stables and fields to make room which isn't on.

 

[Suzie G]

Terri, I'd come to the conclusion those posting against the OP's concerns had absolutely zero knowledge about foals. (which is probably the case with the livery in question as well)
The post by putasocinit has completely confirmed my thoughts.
A mare and foal in the midst of a general livery yard is a recipe for so many different disasters it beggars belief that anyone thinks It is a good idea.

Im really worried cos the mare in the stable beside ours has just had a bogof and our gelding has become very protective/threatening/who knows what he is thinking but I would be devastated if he attacked the foal. The YO has said he will electric tape off a separate paddock for the mare and foal but I hope its no where near our paddock as I just dont know what he would do.

Hes never acted anything like this before, he is usually so well mannered

 

[pip6]

It's not just a matter of clearing the field. The field will need to be used from now to weaning (never good idea to have foal near others, even if mare used to herd). Foals bring on a massive change in some horses, often extreme aggression. Any fencing between new field & others will need to be up to job of keeping them out & foal in. A strand of electric isn't going to do it. Is there a large enough stable (assuming as it's a livery yard not a stud with foaling boxes) they could come in if need be? Is the livery going to do the night checks as foaling approaches? Or more likely given their actions so far just carry on as normal assuming it will pop out fine & they will just find it fit & healthy next morning? Is the livery experienced at breeding? If not is the livery YO? If not who on earth is going to help?

The first foal I bred was at a livery yard, but they produced about 10 foals a year (took in broodmares for foaling), the YO had vast experience, the set-up was for foaling, the fields were set aside etc. Before I even went looking at stallions I consulted YO & ASKED PERMISSION to have a foal at her yard. Only with her consent did I start looking. I spent that year being as involved in foals as possible, to get experience for following year when hopefully mine would foal. It can be done, but it needs to be done right (unless it is last minute surprise then I understand there was no chance to plan).

On an aside, I moved my mare & 6 week old foal (due to work) 200 miles to their current home. They travelled brilliantly in Ifor with partition removed & back doors shut. Regular breaks etc it can be done. No reason you have to wait until weaning to give them notice if you wish. If mare is close to foaling would be hard to move her now. No reason why they can't move to a stud (they think you're a cheap option?)

Think idea of disclaimer is essential. Foals can get into mischief that can't be thought of, you don't want to pick up bill from vet. Even if you provide field, get them to sign to say you do not deem it & your yard suitable for mare/foal but they have chosen to accept it for that purpose. Good luck.

 

[pip6]

Im really worried cos the mare in the stable beside ours has just had a bogof and our gelding has become very protective/threatening/who knows what he is thinking but I would be devastated if he attacked the foal. The YO has said he will electric tape off a separate paddock for the mare and foal but I hope its no where near our paddock as I just dont know what he would do.

Hes never acted anything like this before, he is usually so well mannered

I very much doubt that will stop him!

 

[fatpiggy]

Putasocinit,

What can happen you say? Well I had a foal savaged in the blink of an eye by another mare. So horrific were the injuries the filly was put down. Happened in a split second. Her mother did try and protect her but again happened in a split second. Geldings can attack foals as well. My stepmom ended up in a helicopter to Shock Trauma after her foal squeezed through something a dog wouldn't get through. Gelding attacked and my stepmom through herself on top of him. The pool guy saved her and foal. Gelding was as sweet as they come until that moment.

Oh it's sweet driving by a field of mom's and babies. Even mixed fields with a foal. The reality of raising foals can be much different. And you only really get this after your own tradgedy and people start sharing their own stories.

Also headcollar and leading is best done by people who know what they're doing. Pulling and dragging out of foals could mean neck damage later on. Also it's about teaching them to have head collar on and off. Not how to wear it. Leave a headcollar on for 2 days and it's already too tight and uncomfortable. Sometimes I'm amazed these little creatures make it to and through weaning. Oh I know horses in the wild have babies all the time. Some make it some don't. We don't think anything happens to them in the wild.

Yup most of the time things are fine. But this doesn't sound like a situation best suited to the extra demands of mare and foal.

Terri

I went with a work friend to collect her daughter from the local stables to find everyone in floods of tears. A mare with a foal just a few days old had been attacked by another horse and the baby was kicked in the head and killed outright. The owner had arranged that no other livery's horse go out in the same field and this was fine with the YO, but another livery had taken it upon themselves to turn their horse out too as it was "harmless".

Terri, I can't disagree with a single thing you have said above.

 

[Billabongchick]

I am astounded that someone would take it on themselves to take their mare to stud whilst on a non-breeding yard without a prior discussion with the YO and I am not surprised she is aggrieved.

I am a livery and understand that at my yard I am not the only person there; there are other horses, other people's possessions in communal areas and the YM's feelings to take into account with any changes you might want to make to the situation. If I had made a conscious decision (or ended up with a BOGOF by mishap) I would absolutely expect to either pay extra for the hassle or if the yard were not able to easily adapt/it would cause issues with other horses there then I would accept that the horse would need to be moved to a more suitable place. A foal isn't a toy and needs appropriate care and facilities.

If it isn't too late I would give notice for the above reasons or if not then charge for time spent foal-proofing and put in place rules as to how the foal is moved around/handled for the safety of it and other liveries once it arrives and grows bigger.

 

[Honey08]

If I was required to run a DIY yard I think I'd charge:
£100 a week for stable and field (£25 for horse and £75 for having to put up with painful strangers in my home),
£50 an hour for their poo picking if they didn't do it - I hate doing it but it has to be done
£50 an hour plus materials to repair any damage done by their presious
a £5 fine for every sentence of moaning, slagging of other people, giving unsolicited 'advice' etc etc. so at least I'd be compensated for the constant ear bending.
I'd also have full rights to call vet, farrier, etc administer wormers, cut hard feed, fit grazing muzzle etc etc. as I sort fit if in my sole opinion it was needed for horses welfare - all at owners expense
So I guess I'd need say £1k deposit on day of arrival.
And I'd charge wonga style 3275% interest on overdue payments.

That should get me just the kind of livery clients I could cope with.

Fantastic, you are the first person in five years who has made me reconsider opening my yard to DIYs again - but you'd have to be manager!

ps, I used to charge £25/wk including hay, which made us jack after you added up maintenance and general stress! We lasted about 18 months before we gave up doing DIY and kept our lovely yard for ourselves!

I am a BHSAI with her own yard, complete with foaling box and fields of my own, yet when I was trying to get my mare in foal, I fully intended to return the mare to stud on grass livery for a few months, to use the experience of the stud and to know that the foal would be socialising with other youngsters etc.

The livery in question is either a total idiot or very rude, and neither type are the ideal livery!

 

[ribbons]

There is a lot of sense being posted here by people who have knowledge and experience of mares and foals, and totally understand the OP's problem with this situation.
Thank god it counter balances the rest of the nonsense being posted by those without a clue about breeding. It really makes my blood boil to think someone considering breeding for the first time will think it's a walk in the park after reading some people's comments here that it's not a problem and op should not be so nasty.
Like I said, thank god there is enough fact being posted from those with knowledge to dispel that sort of nonsense.
The day you need to be licensed and qualified to breed horses is long over due. The real loser in all this is that poor mare and her forthcoming foal, belonging to such an idiot.
God I'm cross, and it's nothing to do with me.

 

[Polos Mum]

Fantastic, you are the first person in five years who has made me reconsider opening my yard to DIYs again - but you'd have to be manager!

Thanks - but it's sad really, I had a lovely retirement livery here for years that worked wonderfully, then 5 weeks with a nightmare 'friend' who was desporate while she moved house and I'd never never do it again.

I have 7 stables 12 acres floodlit school etc and just my 2 and it'd be nice to have someone to compete/ hack with and to get a bit of cover for a holiday (I think that's the word for the time when you don't do horses - right?!?) but everytime it even crosses my mind I come on here read some livery related posts and thank god for the padlock on the gate!

Certainly in this area with the price of food/ crops going up so much and the grief caused by liverys farmers will be shutting them by the dozen and turning the land back to farm land.

Perhaps in the long run it'll be a good thing as horses will go back to being very expensive to keep but in the short term it'll leave lots homeless.

 

[Spring Feather]

Certainly in this area with the price of food/ crops going up so much and the grief caused by liverys farmers will be shutting them by the dozen and turning the land back to farm land.

That's what is happening where I live. There used to be lots of little livery stables around but no more. So many of the YOs have closed their doors to the general horsey population and are just keeping their own horses there and putting the rest of their land back into crops. I'm lucky in that I have great owners, most of them I never see from one month to the next but if I had whinging eejits coming here day in day out then I'm afraid they would be asked to move on. Breeding mares/youngstock are a significant part of my business and I'm all set up for it but I think it is unfair for any livery to go behind the YOs back and breed a mare and expect the YO to deal with all the upheaval and added expense that is needed to accommodate mares and foals.

 

[skint1]

I just wanted to say that I for one appreciate a good livery yard, I think it's because I keep one of my horses on a farm with a friend where you really do it all yourself and it's hard, and it takes time and it's stressful so the services I get on the DIY livery yard where my other 2 are really appreciated by me and I'd be so sad to have to move. I pay on time, I obey the rules, I am polite to everyone, I keep out of the way of the workings of the farm and I am grateful that the farmer is willing to share his lovely home with us.

I think it's sad that so many land owners have had bad experiences that they don't want liveries anymore, I'd like to say the majority of horse owners aren't like that, you can generally tell the ones who are a problem, they have to keep moving yards and they ALWAYS have a nutty or mean YO.

 

[ribbons]

Polos mum, honey8 and springfeather. With you all the way.
My excess fields are full of sheep and spare stables used for storage. Never again liveries for me.
It is the arrogant "I'm paying, I'm entitled" that have ruined the business for everyone.

 

[Aarrghimpossiblepony]

This thread should be re titled as,
"The Yard Owners Strike Back".

As I'm not on a yard, the thing that comes across is that people want to keep their horses on the cheap.
That seems to be one of the underlying problems.

 

[onlytheponely]

Just 'wow' to some replies on this thread

As many others with experience have already written, a normal livery yard is no place for a mare to foal. Maybe the mare arrived at the OP's yard in the very early stages of pregnancy and no one else was any the wiser apart from the owner.

Honestly, I would be livid if I was the OP. You simply cannot use electric fencing for a foal's paddock it is not even an option so setting up a suitable paddock is going to be very costly. If the mare is literally about to drop the poor OP realistically has no choice but to let the deed happen on her premises.

My only advice to the OP, if she has been left with absolutely no choice, would be to make sure that ALL the fencing around her other liveries is as safe as it can be. Electrify normally reliable post and rail fencing up to the mains with 3 strands and turn it up to full 24hrs a day. If the paddock being used for the mare and foal is next to your normal livery fields I would move everything at least one paddock away if this is possible but I appreciate that you may be very restricted

I won't elaborate on foal-savaging stories but you need to be aware that some horses and ponies can react very violently and completely out of character when a foal is in the vicinity. Some mares will even break through fencing to get to foals.

I would actually point your livery in the direction of this thread or print it off for her to read, she needs to realise what she is setting herself up for and what she has put upon you. I don't think that you've done anything wrong putting this on here.

 

[Marydoll]

Just 'wow' to some replies on this thread

As many others with experience have already written, a normal livery yard is no place for a mare to foal. Maybe the mare arrived at the OP's yard in the very early stages of pregnancy and no one else was any the wiser apart from the owner.

Honestly, I would be livid if I was the OP. You simply cannot use electric fencing for a foal's paddock it is not even an option so setting up a suitable paddock is going to be very costly. If the mare is literally about to drop the poor OP realistically has no choice but to let the deed happen on her premises.

My only advice to the OP, if she has been left with absolutely no choice, would be to make sure that ALL the fencing around her other liveries is as safe as it can be. Electrify normally reliable post and rail fencing up to the mains with 3 strands and turn it up to full 24hrs a day. If the paddock being used for the mare and foal is next to your normal livery fields I would move everything at least one paddock away if this is possible but I appreciate that you may be very restricted

I won't elaborate on foal-savaging stories but you need to be aware that some horses and ponies can react very violently and completely out of character when a foal is in the vicinity. Some mares will even break through fencing to get to foals.

I would actually point your livery in the direction of this thread or print it off for her to read, she needs to realise what she is setting herself up for and what she has put upon you. I don't think that you've done anything wrong putting this on here.

^^^^^ agree with all of the above

 

[Fransurrey]

Polos mum, honey8 and springfeather. With you all the way.
My excess fields are full of sheep and spare stables used for storage. Never again liveries for me.
It is the arrogant "I'm paying, I'm entitled" that have ruined the business for everyone.

This kind of thing worries me. Despite 13 years without having or causing any hassle, I've been officially 'booted out' of my rented land when the owner died and I really think that gossips have been winding up the guy who inherited it all. I happen to be on a yard where the YM is bending over backwards to try and accomodate my EMS pony and sweet itch mare (they're really not set up for restricted grazing or ponies), but I do want to get my own place again eventually, but everywhere I look there are unused fields because people won't rent out to horsey types. People like the OP's livery who feck it up for everyone else!! I'd wonder what the livery was thinking, but can guess that they weren't thinking, full stop!

 

[honetpot]

I to have stables, grazing barns but after a hellish renter last year have decided whilist I would love company there are too many completely selfish deluded people out there and its not worth the risk.
At least if you did human B&B you would get a decent rate per night, usually pay up front, and when they leave they take everything.

 

[skint1]

oh no! So sad to hear of all these places no longer taking liveries. I promise you we aren't all mental and demanding!

 

[Honey08]

Don't worry nice liveries! I think that things will evolve. Around here, a few people have put large shelters or two stable blocks in their fields, and let the whole thing out in a "you're responsible for everything" kind of way. This is the sort of thing I sometimes think about, putting a two or three horse stable and a store in my bottom field of 4 acres with a river, and letting it to one person..

 

[mynutmeg]

Don't worry nice liveries! I think that things will evolve. Around here, a few people have put large shelters or two stable blocks in their fields, and let the whole thing out in a "you're responsible for everything" kind of way. This is the sort of thing I sometimes think about, putting a two or three horse stable and a store in my bottom field of 4 acres with a river, and letting it to one person..

I would love this!

 

[Spring Feather]

Don't worry nice liveries! I think that things will evolve. Around here, a few people have put large shelters or two stable blocks in their fields, and let the whole thing out in a "you're responsible for everything" kind of way. This is the sort of thing I sometimes think about, putting a two or three horse stable and a store in my bottom field of 4 acres with a river, and letting it to one person..

I've done that with three of my pasture fields. One lady has 6 horses in one field, the other has 8 horses split into 2 fields. They still have use of all facilities but they pay field rent and they come and go and do their own thing every day without bothering me. The rest of the horses here are on full care packages so I hardly ever see their owners. I am expensive compared to most other yards around so maybe that weedles out some of the more troublesome owners.

 

[Copperpot]

That's what my friend and I do. We rent 3 huge fields off the farmer and the stables he wasn't using. We just do our own thing and pay our money. We buy our hay from him and he does harrow our fields for us. We also make sure we keep the place clean and tidy. He and his wife are lovely.

 

[Mrs. Jingle]

Interesting comment. Do you really think that the more a livery pays for the service the less they are likely to be troublesome? It is like saying the more money they have to splash around the better 'sort' they will be?

IMO that is far from the case, very often it can be the horse owners and liveries with the most financial standing will be the most unrealistically demanding and obnoxious.

 

[MoonRiver]

Don't worry nice liveries! I think that things will evolve. Around here, a few people have put large shelters or two stable blocks in their fields, and let the whole thing out in a "you're responsible for everything" kind of way. This is the sort of thing I sometimes think about, putting a two or three horse stable and a store in my bottom field of 4 acres with a river, and letting it to one person..

Agree, that sounds lovely. That would be my ideal set up to find, but there is little available and a lot of competition when it does appear.

I worked on a livery yard, so have seen fair share of madness, makes me try to be really decent as a livery customer now

 

[marmalade76]

I have 7 stables 12 acres floodlit school etc and just my 2 and it'd be nice to have someone to compete/ hack with and to get a bit of cover for a holiday (I think that's the word for the time when you don't do horses - right?!?) but everytime it even crosses my mind I come on here read some livery related posts and thank god for the padlock on the gate!

All you need is the right person to come along. I currently have an exceptionally good deal on a very smart yard because I am the perfect livery *inserts smug smilie*

(but have to admit that if it weren't for the lovely Aprilblossom I wouldn't be there )

 

[Tnavas]

I have mine in two places - one is very cheap, belongs to the local council, has an extensive contract and absolutely no facilities. However they fertilise the paddocks and also deal with the ragged growth - we had cows sent through this year instead of cutting. Weeds are sprayed for us too at no extra cost.

My other horse is in private grazing and I pay through the nose for this, I have use of yards, stables, locked tack room, surfaced arena, showjumps, cross country and best of all a 1km surfaced track. The paddocks are weed sprayed and harrowed. We have strict rules though - we are not allowed to bring friends and family around. We take it in turns to bring in horses for the farrier and there is nearly always someone there to ride with.

I'd love to have both horses there but can't afford to. The place is great but there is one livery who abuses it totally. We are told which paddocks to use but she ignores the owners requests, splits up her paddocks into the minutest areas and then her horses where tracks in the grass running up and down, one you see rearing and leaping around because he cannot actually move around enough to expend his energy. She is supposed to have her horses in only one paddock at a time but keeps splitting them up and taking paddocks promised to others. It's people like her who make it difficult for those of us who do look after their horses.

Contracts are the most important part of having someone graze on your property - set the contract up well and ensure you cover all bases - including what happens when feed etc is borrowed without permission, with a good contract both horse owner and property owner are covered.

Then keep to the contract.

 

[Spring Feather]

Interesting comment. Do you really think that the more a livery pays for the service the less they are likely to be troublesome? It is like saying the more money they have to splash around the better 'sort' they will be?

IMO that is far from the case, very often it can be the horse owners and liveries with the most financial standing will be the most unrealistically demanding and obnoxious.

I'm sure other YOs may have different stories to tell but I can only say what my experience has been of owning yards for the past 24 years. When I first started up the farm I own now 9 years ago I was the same price as all other places in my area and I had some very needy and inexperienced liveries who were constantly phoning me or at my door asking for help in some form or another. I got quite fed up of this so I changed tack, doubled my prices and marketed towards a different kind of horse owner. That was about 7 years ago and I haven't looked back. I run at full capacity pretty much all of the time and I have very polite and respectful owners whom I get along fabulously with so I'm perfectly happy with the way my business runs now.