Poll: Do you see racing being banned?

[bonny]

During the 60's and 70's there were many Formula 1 racing fatalities. Since then many safety improvements have been to make the sport safer.
I believe the Grand National and other horse racing sports can be made safer as well, first for the horse and then the rider.
Making a horse jump huge fence's whilst bunched up with other riders seems rather risky.
Having all the fences 1 meter max in height would make a huge difference.

You are ignoring the fact that one of the horses who died at Aintree was killed jumping hurdles, so nothing to do with the size of the fence or how many horses were in the race. So no it wouldn’t make any difference to lower the size of the jumps anymore than they have already done.

 

[stangs]

Don't think racing will ever be banned (ditto the above: big money, number of jobs, etc.). I reckon the welfare of the horses and jockeys will improve, but in such small increments that no one will realise that there's been an improvement. The protesters will get more extremist, the pro-racing lot will get more extremist, and everyone will argue about it until the cows come home, with no significant change ever made.

Having all the fences 1 meter max in height would make a huge difference.

The evidence for this being..?

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

Having all the fences 1 meter max in height would make a huge difference.

Which would then make them go faster. A bigger fence will make a horse back off a bit and respect it.

Actually speed is what saves a lot of these horses. You clip the top of a hurdle you either sprawl on landing or you come down shoulder first. Roll or slide (depending on how soft the ground is) and get back up. You hit the Birch of a chase fence and the speed and momentum will usually send you through it "splitting the Birch to the boards" or you will leave your back legs in it. Again bringing you down shoulder first. If you hit the solid bars of the fences that's when the injuries occur usually as the horses are flipped. By jumping long and low (obviously depending on the size of the obstacle) means you stand more chance of getting to the other side. We don't need to leave hurdles or fences up to win. We just need to get to the other side intact with the jockey. Jockeys survive better too because they are flung far from the horse by sheer momentum.

Rotational falls in eventing are because the horse goes up and comes straight back down a meter later. They go in to the bottom of the fence, clip the top and there is no momentum to send them forwards so they flip over and come straight down on their heads and necks. And then splat on the rider too. These types of falls are rare in racing and when they do occur it's because the horse is tiring at the end of a race, goes in deep to pop the fence and doesn't manage to sort it's legs out in time to land properly.

 

[Birker2020]

How many horses overall have died in the last 4 months? Or do only deaths racing count ? Our quest for competing horses in all disciplines leads to who knows how many deaths but they aren’t as public as the racing ones.

46 have died on british race tracks since 15th Jan 2023 according to Animal Aid I think.

 

[frazzled]

I’m not sure I would use the term banned but I think it will be significantly different as the force of public opinion turns against it. Some people have pointed out on various threads that if people on a horse forum are debating the merits of racing then the tide is turning. I would argue that horse people are probably more informed and likely to debate the issue. Sadly I fear a large portion of the betting public treat a racehorse as a commodity for betting on and a boozy day out and possibly enjoy the mayhem.

 

[blitznbobs]

Has any other horse sport caused the death of 60 horses in 4 months?

Yes leisure riding will have caused at least that many deaths

 

[mariew]

Too much money in it , will never be banned

Yup, I'm with this. Maybe it will be tweaked but I wouldn't expect banning of racing.

 

[Honey08]

All vegans are extremists, humans are not herbivores, the human body is not designed to survive on a plant only diet.

Were you on BBC1 yesterday morning?

Seriously, on that topic, we’re not designed to eat processed food stacked with sugar and salt either, so surely most of the population are food extremists too??

 

[ycbm]

Yes leisure riding will have caused at least that many deaths

That's like saying riding a bike causes more human deaths than base jumping.

Deaths per hour of activity undertaken is the only measure that makes any sense.

And by that measure NH racing is massively more dangerous for horses than any other equestrian sport.
.

 

[SadKen]

I expect NH to end in a generation. I expect the money will transfer to the flat. Rightly or wrongly, flat is seen as elite sport, and NH is for the proletariat. Look at the fashion, locations and seasons for competing to see how that works. The elites invest in the flat, and won’t care about NH going on the pyre to sate animal welfare protestors and an increasingly angry public, which will allow flat to continue. The wastage will continue too, because it’s out of sight and nobody is confronted with it on telly in one horrific pastiche of broken limbs and distress. Out of sight, out of mind.

I was asked today by work colleagues what I thought of the GN. I don’t like it and explained why. They asked me because they found Saturday a watershed moment. There will be no more sweepstakes in our office. The last time I was asked my opinion by non horsey people on an equine issue was fox hunting, shortly before the ban was mooted. It’s coming imo.

 

[rextherobber]

Yes leisure riding will have caused at least that many deaths

Really? According to BHS, there's been 2 killed on the roads, and it's early for competitions/cross country etc. Unless hunting has a high mortality rate, of course... It seems unexpectedly hard to find figures on horse deaths in other sports, if you Google it, it comes up with competition horse deaths at 30, that sort of thing.

 

[Merrymoles]

One thing I would really like to see change soon is the racing of two-year-olds.

However, this is extremely unlikely to happen soon as owners want to see a return on investment for stud fees etc and there is also the issue of whether a colt should be gelded or not, which normally depends on how fast it is.

We know that outside of racing, there would be an outcry on here if someone talked about taking their two-year-old for a gallop but it is common practice in flat racing. We know that their skeletons are not properly developed and that is another reason for the huge wastage rate.

 

[sport horse]

Has any other horse sport caused the death of 60 horses in 4 months?

I suspect many more than this have died in field accidents in the last four months. I suspect many more breeding mares have died in the last four months during foaling. etc. etc. Probably more than that have been killed in road accidents.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

One thing I would really like to see change soon is the racing of two-year-olds.

However, this is extremely unlikely to happen soon as owners want to see a return on investment for stud fees etc and there is also the issue of whether a colt should be gelded or not, which normally depends on how fast it is.

We know that outside of racing, there would be an outcry on here if someone talked about taking their two-year-old for a gallop but it is common practice in flat racing. We know that their skeletons are not properly developed and that is another reason for the huge wastage rate.

This is a huge bug bear of mine. 2yos can't race until the turf season starts at Easter. They can only go 5 furlongs in April & May. They can go up to 6 furlongs in June & July then up to 7 & 8 furlongs from August onwards. So it is staggered I'm what they can do.

We will never stop 2yo racing sadly. But if you could get the start of it put back to July then most would be broken in as 2yo's not as yearlings as there would be no need to. That won't happen though as they would miss Royal Ascot. So maybe aim for a June start?

We have some 2yo's in and I feel so bad for them. They are such babies mentally and physically.

 

[reynold]

The last livery yard I was at for 4 years with my oldies had 22 stables.

4 years of 22 horses = 88 'horse years' of life

In that time 2 horses were found dead in the field and one galloped round so much due to a new neighbour that it had a lower leg hairline fracture and was put down 2 days later. None of the 3 were over 20 and the yard was well run with no neglect at all.

This gives a field death rate of 3.41% which I suspect is pretty typical for a death rate of horses in fields. This is actually higher than the 2% death rate in racing.

As I said in the saturday at Aintree post in Eq. News we currently don't have the information about field deaths of horses. The BHS has a road accident report form, the information from which has been used to successfully influence new rules in the Highway Code.

The protestors at Aintree believe that no horse should be ridden for any purpose and that horses are safe in fields. If the BHS set up another database where people could report field deaths, including those resulting from fireworks and chinese lanterns (which imho should be banned), then this data could be used both to help change the rules on firework/lantern use and to inform a debate on racing based on actual facts and not twitter misinformation.

I spent a career in engineering and computing and I follow the data. I'd like to see the raw data collected and check that any statistics are not 'falsely interpreted'.

I both believe in horse welfare (and have a WHW rescue pony) and also have small shares in 2 racehorses. In my time I've participated in nearly all equestrian activities except polo.

Enjoying racing and believing in horse welfare are not mutually exclusive. You can, and racing generally does, believe in both.

 

[blitznbobs]

That's like saying riding a bike on the road causes more human deaths than base jumping.

Deaths per hour of activity undertaken is the only measure that makes any sense.

And by that measure NH racing is massively more dangerous for horses than any other equestrian sport.
.

Really? According to BHS, there's been 2 killed on the roads, and it's early for competitions/cross country etc. Unless hunting has a high mortality rate, of course... It seems unexpectedly hard to find figures on horse deaths in other sports, if you Google it, it comes up with competition horse deaths at 30, that sort of thing.

How many are fat over fed or put down due to injury in a field? Get a tendon injury etc etccThere are ahundred and one reasons horses are lost

It was a facetious comment tbh backed up with no real statistics but im sure there are lots of horses in the uk killed with ‘kindness’ too.

 

[Katieg123]

The last livery yard I was at for 4 years with my oldies had 22 stables.

4 years of 22 horses = 88 'horse years' of life

In that time 2 horses were found dead in the field and one galloped round so much due to a new neighbour that it had a lower leg hairline fracture and was put down 2 days later. None of the 3 were over 20 and the yard was well run with no neglect at all.

This gives a field death rate of 3.41% which I suspect is pretty typical for a death rate of horses in fields. This is actually higher than the 2% death rate in racing.

As I said in the saturday at Aintree post in Eq. News we currently don't have the information about field deaths of horses. The BHS has a road accident report form, the information from which has been used to successfully influence new rules in the Highway Code.

The protestors at Aintree believe that no horse should be ridden for any purpose and that horses are safe in fields. If the BHS set up another database where people could report field deaths, including those resulting from fireworks and chinese lanterns (which imho should be banned), then this data could be used both to help change the rules on firework/lantern use and to inform a debate on racing based on actual facts and not twitter misinformation.

I spent a career in engineering and computing and I follow the data. I'd like to see the raw data collected and check that any statistics are not 'falsely interpreted'.

I both believe in horse welfare (and have a WHW rescue pony) and also have small shares in 2 racehorses. In my time I've participated in nearly all equestrian activities except polo.

Enjoying racing and believing in horse welfare are not mutually exclusive. You can, and racing generally does, believe in both.

Is it not important though to take into account the (hopefully) many many hours a horse spends in the field vs the minutes it spends on the track? Also is the 2% death rate in racing only deaths during races or also in training?

 

[RachelFerd]

I don't think it will be banned, but I do think we'll effectively see NH racing kill itself off - combination of major owners dropping out and sponsor dropping out as it becomes an increasing PR disaster. May continue to survive in P2P 'amateur' world type only, without TV coverage or major profile.

Flat will probably survive, but the money will drop out of it pretty quickly too - particularly now that the direct connection to the Queen thing is gone. You can already see the middle east money dropping out of the sport.

 

[RachelFerd]

All vegans are extremists, humans are not herbivores, the human body is not designed to survive on a plant only diet.

Tell that to some of the most brilliant athletes in the world. Jesus.

 

[tristar]

i think i read somewhere that since 2020 any racehorse in training must be signed out of the food chain avoiding death by slaughter, one small change.

people here were up in arms about water sloshing thing over the horses head, just for show! was one comment, then the atlanta science of cooling was used to halt my objections, to which one here in the room said, `but aintree in april is not atlanta with the humidity and temperature!`, plus listening to the sickening `oh the horses are treated like kings` whilst failing to mention the huge number slaughtered, exported to place like china, with no animal cruelty laws, and the slaughter annually of over i BILLION equids, i think thats right, whilst a few years ago ireland sent over 5000 tbs to there, i was there on the sofa, fingers in ears and eyes closed every time they approached a jump, for the first time in my life, i`m just not going to tolerate all this any longer.

because they churn out all the shxte, talk others down, whilst making themselves look utter fools, because we do know what is going on.

how that relates to a ban i do not know, but hurdles are one of my hates, the horses frequently jump, if that what you can call, with the topline upside down, neck ewed, spine dropped, if you gonna jump something on a horse put up a proper fence that it can actually see.

then the feeding of large quantities of grain, ulcers, kissing spines.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

Yes all racehorses must be signed out of the food chain.

Many yards are seeing the benefits of science in their feeding regime. Most racehorses are fed high protein, fully balanced cubes or mixes. Very rarely does anyone feed straight oats any more. A good number of yards also feed chaff now either before work or in every feed. Hay/haylage has been upped but we can't offer this ad-lib as some horses would just eat and eat and eat and be too fat to race effectively. Some yards are bedded on straw which obviously the horses can eat if they want. A lot more yards are turning out daily where possible. Granted not always in a Herd or pairs but they can still talk and scratch over a fence line. We do still have to keep them safe from kicking each other. Summer/winter holidays the horses are often turned out together in herds as the shoes are off and they are much more chilled because they aren't in work. Obviously this doesn't work with colts as they would either end up scraping with each other or playing too rough. I know they don't know their own value but they are far too valuable to risk this way.

Racing is changing with the way things are done. Not everyone is set in the old ways. Science shows us what we need to do to improve and who has paid for the science? Racing. Who has paid for all the veterinary advancements in recent decades? Racing. I know 2 wrongs don't make a right but Racing has done far, far more for the general equine population than most people will ever, ever appreciate.

 

[maisie06]

Linked to the debate around the Grand National, I thought I'd set a poll up as to how people can see racing going on the future. OH asked an interesting question before the GN as to whether I thought it will eventually be banned. I answered with what I could see but thought it an interesting question and will be interested to see what others think, and why

I did try to have a balanced poll with flat racing only banned as an option for each time period, but there weren't enough options so have stuck with NH as it's the most hotly contested, although we also know about the issues relating to flat, hence why I wanted to include it

As a follow on poll to this, it would be interesting to see another poll around using horses for sport in general and whether people can see some activities going faster than others, a blanket ban, or none at all banned

Neither will be banned - too much money involved in gambling sector.

 

[RachelFerd]

Neither will be banned - too much money involved in gambling sector.

Gambling does not need racing. Gamblers will find other things to gamble on. Football already has more gambling spend, horseracing is second.

 

[ycbm]

This gives a field death rate of 3.41% which I suspect is pretty typical for a death rate of horses in fields. This is actually higher than the 2% death rate in racing.

No it's not. The 2 percent is deaths on course. It doesn't include all the reasons for death that non racing horses also get. It doesn't include all the ones assessed at home after finishing unsound andPTS then, either. They race for minutes, horses are in fields for hours. Imagine if the death rate for turnout was one for every 500 hours, 1 for every 20 days.

 

[sakura]

The thing that always gets me on these threads is the way some people feel they have a right to ride horses. You don't. Riding a horse is a privilege of good fortune, finances and the kindness and tolerance of the horse. Horses don't owe us anything. Their only "job" (that is a term I hate) is to be a horse. We are lucky to be given the opportunity to sit on a horses back, it is not something you are entitled to do.

We have bred domesticated horses for centuries, and by doing so, we owe them safety, care and kindness. That is their right.

 

[tristar]

i might say everyday i think about folk on here who cannot ride although they would love to, for one reason or another, when i go to ride i know i am the luckiest person in the world, in that moment.

the first thing i ever remember thinking about was that i wanted to ride a horse.

if you can spend your life doing what you love most you are a lucky person.

 

[marmalade76]

Tell that to some of the most brilliant athletes in the world. Jesus.

Which top athletes are vegans??

 

[RachelFerd]

Which top athletes are vegans??

Scott Jurek the most successful ultramarathon runner in the world

or Venus Williams, who needs no introduction

or Lewis Hamilton

or even on the equestrian side Jessica von Bredow-Werndl the German dressage individual gold medalist from 2020 Olympics.

Just google it - there are tonnes, across a lot of different sports inc. powerlifting and big 'muscley' sports.

 

[reynold]

If I'd included in my figures horses that were ridden (3 competing, 1 hacking) then a further 4 pts over 4 years would make the death rate 8%. Additionally 3 further horses were put down due to old age including my 2 oldies.

Horses are injured when ridden (racing, other competition and hacking) and when out in the field but not dying in the field. Typically veterinary treatment and rehabilitation is tried for a period of time but sometimes, often depending on the finances available from the owner, they become beyond economic repair for the owner or the owner hasn't got the facilities/finance to keep the injured horse in retirement and still afford a competition horse (racing or non-racing).

There is also the scenario where further treatment is unfair to the welfare of the horse and pts is actually the humane option. Not all horses respond well to various types of treatment/rehabilitation, especially including high-mettled competition horses.

Discussion should be based on hard facts. Atm we don't have all the factual data needed to make an accurate assessment. Steps, as I suggested above, should be taken to obtain data over a period of time long enough to provide balanced figures and not over such a small period (e.g. 3 months since the beginning of 2023 which has been quoted elsewhere) that data spikes can distort the true picture. Hence the point that since the GN fences were redesigned 10 years ago there has been a large drop in problems but the emotive data from the protesters quote figures since 2000 which invalidates the numbers as 2000 to 2013 is not covering the same race conditions as for 2013 to date.

The reason why I centred what I posted around deaths in the field is due to the premise from the protesters at the GN that horses should never be ridden and should only live in fields, including the statement by one of their spokespersons on TV that if racing is banned then all the redundant racehorses, numbering thousands, could live in sanctuaries where they'd be safe grazing in fields. I think most people on here would accept this as being patently ridiculous, as we know that centres are full to bursting at all times.

 

[Katieg123]

Which top athletes are vegans??

Venus Williams, Novak Djokovic, Lewis Hamilton, Dotsie Bausch, Alex Morgan, Morgan Mitchell, Patrick Bouboumian