pondering, many subjects rolled into one, DDA, dog licences etc.

^^ and this would be the sentiment of many many people around the Uk.

What this would do for me is force me to excercise my dogs in a less than satisfactory manner which I truly believe for some breeds is the difference between good and bad behaviour.

How many dogs would then turn "in the home" after being cooped up, under excisercised and not allowed to display normal behaviour? Horses are dangerous - should we hobble? Muzzle? Contain? Or should we promote awareness, common sense and responsibility??

Not on my watch. I'd leave the Uk rather than do that.
 
Bye Kitsune...have a safe trip.

Where would you go? Do you really think other countries allow their children to be mauled and murdered by dogs without taking steps to stop it? Germany has a very rigid policy, for example.

Horses don't rip children to bits whilst dragging them around and shaking them, leaving them requiring hundreds of stitches and counselling.

Spudlet, what sort of quality of life do you consider survivors of dog attacks to have?
 
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This debate has been going on for decades, even when dogs were supposed to be licensed. Not going to get into the whole bad dog/bad owner debate, but would just point out that of the children that have been tragically seriously injured or killed by dogs, the majority have been in the home, so even if it was law for dogs to be muzzled in public it would not have made a jot of difference in those cases.

AengusOg, as a breeder I do scrutinise and assess potential owners, and all pups are tattooed and details kept on a central database. I would have no problem if this became law, but you can bet a lot of those churning out of pups would not comply, and don't think there is a hope in hell of it being enforceable.
 
Ah, but with my proposal it wouldn't be up to the breeder to 'scrutinise and assess potential owners'. The potential owners would have a duty to prove themselves to be responsible, knowledgeable on dog ownership/management, and respectful of the rest of society, but to the licensing authority and not (only) to you. No one could buy a pup without first having a license. You would just have to continue to do what you already (presumably) do, and that is breed good examples of the breed of your choice.

Those 'churning out pups' would have no say in the matter. They either meet the criteria to be within the law, or they can't breed dogs.

I'm not advocating any half-baked rules here. There has to be a serious, enforceable, and enforced law at work.
 
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AengusOg said:
Bye Kitsune...have a safe trip.

Where would you go? Do you really think other countries allow their children to be mauled and murdered by dogs without taking steps to stop it? Germany has a very rigid policy, for example.

Horses don't rip children to bits whilst dragging them around and shaking them, leaving them requiring hundreds of stitches and counselling.

Spudlet, what sort of quality of life do you consider survivors of dog attacks to have?
Click to expand...

You clearly hate dogs, but this is your own problem and not mine.

Thankfully you are in a position of no power whatsoever and therefore will never be able to impose your fear-filled mindset on the rest of us.
 
Kitsune said:
^^ and this would be the sentiment of many many people around the Uk.

What this would do for me is force me to excercise my dogs in a less than satisfactory manner which I truly believe for some breeds is the difference between good and bad behaviour.

How many dogs would then turn "in the home" after being cooped up, under excisercised and not allowed to display normal behaviour? Horses are dangerous - should we hobble? Muzzle? Contain? Or should we promote awareness, common sense and responsibility??

Not on my watch. I'd leave the Uk rather than do that.
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Thing is, you wouldn't buy a horse if you didn't have a suitable field for it surely? So why do people have dogs if the ONLY place they have to exercise it (and I too believe that a dog must have proper exercise) is a public play park? Why do councils have to fence off the children's part because of dog owners?

I adore my dog, she;s walked daily on a public field and on private land.

You wouldn't allow a stallion to run loose on the streets, so why do people get away with letting entire dogs run loose? Is everyone 100% guaranteed that their dog will return to recall after scenting an in season bitch?

There seems to be alot of burying heads in the sand, alot of "well, MY dog's good, I'M a good owner" going on.... we're all half decent owners, or we wouldn't be here discussing this. But the more each and every owner says "not my dog" the more it'll go on.

There's a whopping great culture out there for dogs who are used as fighting dogs. Round here, on most streets! I don't live in the inner city (where believe me, it's worse!) but nor do I live in green open space where the local dogs are all labs and spangles. Just a normal town with a normal chav population. Mixed in with working, middle and dare I say, upper class. We have locals who compete at crufts, my next door neighbour but one comeptes her sheltie (hairy things) at crufts. But NEVER walks them on the common as it;s full of staffies and mastiffs. Just this morning, walking mine past the common a young girl (should have been in school!) appeared with a rottie on a harness. It dragged her towards us, tail wagging. I closed the gate between us and walked off.

And I agree, there ARE dogs who are more 'tuned' to attack and chase. It's natural instinct.

We are the ones saying "these breeds are fine in good hands" but everyone thinks their hands are good hands! No-one buys a pup with the intent of dumping it, but the more we peal on about 'dogs rights' and how soft these breeds are (I'm talking mainly staffies here) the more people buy them to PROVE they can handle them. Then dump them when they become too much. I'm aware this happens with all breeds but why is leicester RSPCA full to the brim with staffies? Why is battersea full of them?

Licencing would make sure dogs with these specific needs (and the ability to turn very nasty if not handled correctly) were only sold to approved homes. Homes with a letter from the vet to say they KNEW what they were doing.

I think muzzling every dog is a bit extreme, but agree there should be hefty fines for dog on dog attacks and all owners along with licences should supply their dog's dna.
 
Spudlet said:
You clearly hate dogs, but this is your own problem and not mine..
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Wrong already. I have kept many dogs in my life, all of them working breeds, and none of them have caused any grief to anyone else thanks to my responsible ownership and respect for fellow humans. Of course, that doesn't set me apart from most other dog-owning people. I, however, unlike some others, value the lives and wellbeing of children above those of dogs.

Spudlet said:
Thankfully you are in a position of no power whatsoever and therefore will never be able to impose your fear-filled mindset on the rest of us..
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You are correct there...I am not in a position of power, unfortunately. However, I do lobby furiously, on the subject of dangerous dogs, for the attention of those who are. It seems that they are seeking some solution to the dangers that dogs present when bred and/or owned by the irresponsible among us.
 
If you have only ever kept working breeds, what knowledge have you of the banned breeds? From what basis are you making your assumptions on them? Hands on - or newspaper articles??
 
AengusOg said:
Horses don't rip children to bits whilst dragging them around and shaking them, leaving them requiring hundreds of stitches and counselling.
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You clearly know as much about horses as you do about dogs then. Because mine would. An animal is an individual and it really isn't helpful to generalise in a debate like this, it adds nothing.
 
I work in Boarding Kennels, in our busiest periods we have 100 dogs in, a large majority of those are Staffies. I've worked there on and off for 9 years, I have a managing role so deal with dogs others aren't allowed to go in with due to aggression and I do a lot of grooming of dogs other groomers turn away.
In all that time I have been bitten once severely, in the face, by a Dalmatian. The dogs I have the most respect for, handle with extreme care and often have to muzzle to groom are Collies. The two most recent nasty dogs I've had to deal with have been a Jack Russell and a Shitzuh. The worst mannered dogs we get in are Labs and Golden Retrivers, walking them is an absolute nightmare, I've been dragged over more than one and I'm not a flimsy girl!
I can't remember the last nasty bull breed I had to deal with, they are often boisterous and over friendly and we get a few that are dog aggressive (more to do with being in kennels than anything) but most of them come from family homes and have kids draped over them when we pick them up.

Every dog has the potential to be bad, regardless of breed - they all have the same teeth at the end of the day.
 
I don't think anyone here would object to licensing, microchipping, compulsory third-party insurance and even DNA sampling and tattooing. Many of us already voluntarily have all or some of the above. Rather like the thousands of scrotebags who drive around every day with no insurance, tax or MOT, however, us law-abiding saps will be paying out while the people who are actually the problem will carry on as they are.

How will it be enforced? I can't imagine police officers carrying microchip scanners with them. Dog ANPR systems, anyone? :rolleyes:

There is so much hysteria about dog on child attacks but the reality is that the vast majority happen in the home by a known dog.

Why should it be everyone's 'right' to own a dog, regardless of any risk to the rest of our society, and when will we all take a stand against the potential for our children to be injured or killed by what are, after all, supposed to be our best friends?
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Why should it be everyone's 'right' to produce a child, regardless of any risk to the rest of our society? What about those people who breed and nurture rapists, murderers and thieves? Potential parents should have a duty to prove themselves to a licensing authority that they are responsible, knowledgable and respectful to the rest of society.

Completely farcical, yes, but you get the idea. :o
 
blackcob said:
I don't think anyone here would object to licensing, microchipping, compulsory third-party insurance and even DNA sampling and tattooing. Many of us already voluntarily have all or some of the above. Rather like the thousands of scrotebags who drive around every day with no insurance, tax or MOT, however, us law-abiding saps will be paying out while the people who are actually the problem will carry on as they are.

How will it be enforced? I can't imagine police officers carrying microchip scanners with them. Dog ANPR systems, anyone? :rolleyes:

There is so much hysteria about dog on child attacks but the reality is that the vast majority happen in the home by a known dog.



Why should it be everyone's 'right' to produce a child, regardless of any risk to the rest of our society? What about those people who breed and nurture rapists, murderers and thieves? Potential parents should have a duty to prove themselves to a licensing authority that they are responsible, knowledgable and respectful to the rest of society.

Completely farcical, yes, but you get the idea. :o
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Humans have human rights. A dumped dog doesn't have rights. It's shoved in kennels and PTS if not rehomed. You can, to an extent, rehabilitate humans. they can speak. Dogs can't.
 
In australia (or maybe just Sydney, not sure) male dogs have to be castrated by law unless theyre registered as a breeding dog, something that is not easy to do. My aunt was shocked at the state of things over here, they werent perfect over there but they worked to a better extent than just letting people do whatever they want which is basically what we have here....
 
The anti dog feelings that are out there (as well as here!) make me both sad and angry. Sad that people are living in such fear of animals and angry with the minority of dog owners that are tarring the rest of us with the same brush.

Yes, I know children/people are much more important than dogs - I would never argue otherwise - but it still comes back to the fact that my dogs are no more of a danger to another person than the chance of as plane falling out of the sky onto them. Bad things happen and it is a tragedy when anybody gets hurt through no fault of their own but IMHO we have to be sensible and dog owners, parents and random members of the public have to co -exist in our community as peacefully as possible. That is not achieved by banning anything that somebody doesn't agree with - soon there will be very little left!

Take cars for instance, there are a raft of rules and regulations that drivers are legally obliged to follow - there are an awful lot of untaxed, uninsured and probably unroadworthy cars out there despite god knows how many resources being thrown at the problem. Children get killed by cars, many more that are attacked by dogs so should we also ban cars? Or restrict their use so severely that many cannot meet the conditions required to drive? Or would the dog haters agree that the way forward is to pursue the drivers breaking the law and throw the book at them? What is difference between the two issues - there are dog owners who break the law (already in existence) so deal with them! New regulations and laws will just be ignored by the problem owners as they are now and other owners will be penalised yet the dog attacks will continue.....

Can I just say that while I am "defending" dogs on this thread, in RL I'm one of the dog walkers having a pop at the owners who aren't picking up poo, have their dogs running riot and have even been called a miserable old cow in the local park for insisting that people do not let their kids maul my dogs - they are not toys!

itsme23, we do have a few young lads/lasses that have staffies wearing harnesses that weigh more than the dog but tbh I don't have many problems with them - in their own ways, they also love their dogs and once you get past the posturing they are open to a chat and a giggle.

IME, the owners that do my head in are the ones with "socially acceptable" breeds that put no effort into training and actually get stroppy with you when you suggest(nicely! to start with) that maybe some training/control might be in order.... I bitterly resent being classed with people like that.
 
^^ bang on with that last paragraph.

Often the best owners are the ones with large/powerful breeds because they understand the gravitas behind having a controllable dog. The people who have little dogs, or soft lap dogs, or sweet working dogs are the ones who think Schnooks is too little to do any harm - well not when you see my JRT ragging a sock ;)
 
I'm pretty shocked that someone can compare a living breathing animal to a machine. Cars don't breed, they don't FEEL.

Kitsune, it's not a generalisation at all. What do you think they do? keep all the ones they can't rehome?

So you get a staffie in that's belonged to a bad owner. It's territorial, it's unsocialised, it's been knocked about. What chance does it have at a normal life? Open your eyes.

I'm not a dog hater whatsoever and to brand someone this just because they have opposing views to you is a bit, dare I say it, silly. When was the last time a plane fell out of the sky and hurt someone? Like, just landed on them, vs the amount of dog bites just in the UK per year? Statistics?

An average of 5 children per year killed by dogs in the uk.

When even top canine journalists are calling for something to be done, why are owners burying their heads in the sand.

Alot of owners of the 'leather studded harness' brigade are indeed perfectly good owners, but what for those who aren't?

A border terrier was killed here last year by a loose staffie in the park. It's owner untraceable. had it been microchipped it's owner would have been found.

It's perfectly enforceable. If dog owners would just realise that no-one's tarring everyone, but it's for the welfare of ALL breeds that something is done then we (as a country) might get somewhere.

Personally i don't agree with the DDA. I know of a pitbull (who is indeed a stunning friendly bitch) who cannot ever recieve medical treatment because the owner fears for her life. Now, were he able to get a licence for that dog and have it traceable to him, he'd do so. For a small fee of £10 for the licence and £10 for the chip, it's a one off payment and NO dogs would be tarred. Those who don't have chips and licences would clearly be those with something to hide (ie a dog they don't want tracing back to them) and therefore when caught the dog would be seized.
Would we then see a drop in the dogs abandoned and stray? A drop in dog on dog attacks?
 
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There will always be scrotes breeding/selling/owning dogs and horses,it is up to the BREEDER of these dogs to interview owners as being responsible enough to have that breed in the first place.EVERY litter bred should be TATTOOED..this is the only scheme that locates the original breeder if things go awry. Mine are all so done..at the end of the day the buck stops with me,who brought that dog into the world,decided it`s parentage etc and chose it`s owner.

Being dog afraid is so sad,as a child dogs were my best friends,in fact if re-homing any rescues,it is so easy to teach children how NOT to be a victim..far easier than adults. What a huge part of growing up they are missing out on;but then if children now for the most part are undisciplined ,what hope for the family dog? Instilled into me many years ago was "never,ever ,sell a puppy to a family with badly trained child"...and never have I done so.
It is never the dog`s fault ,it all starts from it`s very conception and what it has to deal with in life..just like children in fact.


Hysteria ,licencing etc is not the answer,education is..but in today`s culture that is a lost cause.
 
Ditto the last two paragraphs. Responsible owners of 'status' dogs go out of their way to make sure that their dogs are ambassadors for their breed.

The only dog I've ever been bitten by was a family dog, an elderly white heinz 57 terrier that regularly bit my ankles as a child, once quite seriously. The only dog that has ever attacked my dog (in the sense that they jumped up, bit and hung off her throat but without causing any damage, quite possibly only because of her thick neck fur :rolleyes:) was a pair of shih-tzus. The only dogs that have ever caused me inconvenience out walking have been labradors, several times over, whether they have picnic-raided, jumped up and planted muddy paws on me or chased me while out riding.

Anecdotal evidence, whatever. :p
 
itsme123 said:
Kitsune, it's not a generalisation at all. What do you think they do? keep all the ones they can't rehome?
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Sorry you are wrong - plenty of resues are "non kill". Being deeply involved with a rescue a few years previously I know this is a FACT.

So yeah, what they do is, keep all the ones they can't rehome. ;)
 
Kitsune said:
Sorry you are wrong - plenty of resues are "non kill". Being deeply involved with a rescue a few years previously I know this is a FACT.

So yeah, what they do is, keep all the ones they can't rehome. ;)
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We do bull terrier welfare;of the dogs that come in unless they are so ill we cannot fix it/bite people then yes it is a no kill policy.The people leaving us generous amounts in their wills would not be happy if they thought it was a kill shelter.
Most of these are elderly ex bullie fanatics,and we endeavour to fulfill what they would have wanted their money used for.

We do get fantabulous homes for these dogs ,and it does give a huge boost to see one of these strays or misfits toddling off to live the life of Reilly.
Some of them stay here forever,we have three at the moment.One of them was found on a council tip ,half her present body weight,covered in fleas and mange and wrapped up in a roll of wire netting ..just to make sure she could not escape.She is adorable.Over three years on she is extremely spoiled.
 
itsme123 said:
So you get a staffie in that's belonged to a bad owner. It's territorial, it's unsocialised, it's been knocked about. What chance does it have at a normal life? Open your eyes.
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Pretty good actually in the right hands.
Says the person with an ex-fighting pitbull currently asleep under Abe in the sun in my garden.
 
Kitsune said:
If you have only ever kept working breeds, what knowledge have you of the banned breeds? From what basis are you making your assumptions on them? Hands on - or newspaper articles??
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Scientific papers, police and medical reports, expert opinions...it's all out there for those who are interested.


Kitsune said:
You clearly know as much about horses as you do about dogs then. Because mine would. An animal is an individual and it really isn't helpful to generalise in a debate like this, it adds nothing.
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I work with horses for a living.
 
itsme23, I wasn't comparing a dog to car in that sense - just that there is a lot of legislation and enforcement regarding cars and it still doesn't manage to eliminate the law breakers. 5 children a year killed by dogs are indeed 5 too many but I'm guessing that 4 of them were killed on private property (in the home) where legislation still wouldn't protect them? What is the answer to that? I also never said you were a dog hater but there has been a poster that showed little tolerance.

I do agree that there needs to be more responsibility taken by dog owners,a lot more but the problem as I see it (and this is JMO) that it will probably need to done by education and slowly making it socially unacceptable to have Fido bounding around bothering people. This is not a quick fix or handy PR to confirm that the authorities are doing "something" as they rapidly move onto the next soundbite/photo opportunity and leave the issue festering.

I WANT to get back to times when the great majority of dogs were seen as family pets who were valued and easy to live with members of the household. I would like people to realise that a dog is not a right - don't have one until you can afford both the money and time that is required to train, socialise and treat them properly. They are not babies, they are animals that need care, work and boundaries, they are also entitled to a little more stimulation than a 10 minute yomp round the park twice a week.

I keep going back to Ireland's response to a dog problem - there are no banned breeds there but there are 10 restricted breeds. The restrictions they live under are pretty similar to what you propose....muzzling, on lead etc, etc.
These laws are very heavily enforced with little or no appeal so if you get it wrong 9 times out of 10 your dog will be seized and pts. The really scary bit? There has actually been an increase in dog injuries ( Not classified as attacks as that's bad PR:rolleyes:) and there is an inverse status in certain sectors of the community in baiting the law by having a dogs like this off lead, unmuzzled - so what if the dog gets seized, the gits just get another - it's not like the dog is valued, it's just another tool in causing havoc in their locality.

I'm really not having a go at you:o but my experience of the type of restrictions that you (and many others) propose is that they are actually self defeating, don't make life any safer, cost a lot of money, both public funds and private owners money and most importantly IMO cause even more friction and fear between parts of the community.

I am NOT saying that dogs take priority over people, "status" dogs are acceptable, that it is acceptable that dogs run uncontrolled anywhere other than secure private property, that 5 children a year killed is ok or anything similar.
FGS, if I can train my dogs to above basic standards, anyone can with time and graft and I am more than prepared to take the responsibility (and consequences if I get it wrong) of keeping people safe from my dogs. In return, I am not prepared to be demonised or criminalised just because I choose to have a breed that is disliked by many, mainly fed by media hysterics.

As you probably can tell:o I feel very strongly on this subject and I'm honestly not having a go at you - I too want this problem managed effectively - we just disagree on the method!
 
zalacca said:
In australia (or maybe just Sydney, not sure) male dogs have to be castrated by law unless theyre registered as a breeding dog, something that is not easy to do.
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And in Perth, two noise complaints means the dog has to be destroyed or have it's voice box removed. All dogs have to be registered (cheaper if neutered in Perth) and they're looking at the same for cats-good luck there! They are strict and quite rightly (not that I agree about the noise thing but dogs should for sure be trained not to bark for hours).

There is no answer to the dilemma of which dogs should be banned/controlled. The answer is to police the stupid ruddy owners and punish hugely the first time they are seen to do anything dodgy and the dog removed/re-homed.
 
katielou_houston said:
Says the person with an ex-fighting pitbull currently asleep under Abe in the sun in my garden.
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;) and he'd be dead if he'd run into the wrong hands, the wrong type of rescue..just goes to show, breed savvy, dog savvy people CAN rehab dogs.

Sorry I wouldn't take second hand advice from any report/book/stat paper OVER someone who actually has hands on experience. You only have to google a few breeds to read oodles of conflicting advice.

Before people bemoan the breeds maybe its a good idea to get out there and meet them - rather than try to add to the scare tactics of the media.

And Lo, here's a Dogo, bred from the fierce Cordoban Fighting dog...oh look how fierce he is
RIP Vento. A true ambassador for the breed
n1188244950_30065193_5356.jpg
 
Now THAT is something I totally agree with! Statistics can never be better than first hand personal knowledge.Think someone on here :rolleyes:needs to watch Caeser Milan ..or Houston SPCA ...that oh so vicious bull terrier..boy he was so scary! And completely typical in his behaviour.
 
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