Pony bit my face today....

[fburton]

I do love my pony, very much, thanks, but if he ever attacked me, I'm pretty sure that my feelings for him would change.

Yes, such an attack would dent the relationship for me too, though I would hope not beyond repair.

I would have no affection for a human if they were aggressive and violent towards me, why should I feel any different about animals?

Because horses are animals, not humans? Whether or not one accepts that violence is part of horses' nature and how they communicate (I think it is only a very minor part, and imo its importance is exaggerated by some), they are capable of quite brutal, dangerous actions towards humans - viz. kicks and bites. However, we shouldn't be too quick to take these actions personally as that can stop us dealing with the behaviour most effectively.

I am friendly with a parrot. Soon after we were introduced, she bit my finger - not hard enough to draw blood but hard enough to be d*mn painful. I reckoned I was a little too 'forward' in petting her before she got to know me. However, I didn't hit her for that bite (which no doubt would have blown any chances of her accepting me); nor did I say "Right, that's it, you b*starding bird! I hate you and I'm not going near you again!". I gave her another chance, and was more careful and 'polite' the next time I put my finger near her head. You might argue that parrots are not the same as horses, and you'd be right! But just like horses they may display aggressive actions towards humans for reasons that make a lot more sense when they are considered in the light of the fact they are animals and not another human. Kicks and bites may be defensive rather than malicious. In fact, they often are.

 

[quizzie]

The fact that she was significantly less agressive the last 2 days just SHOUTS hormones to me. Evenif your sister doesn't want to investigate etc, it might be, that under the cirrcumstances your vet might be willing to supply Regumate ( which will suppress her cycle) for you to trial. It might make an enormous difference, & if so, there are permanant solutions available.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

I had a horse that was like this. She was never as aggressive as Belle but could be very unpredictable and got progressively worse, until she was 12 (bought as a 4yr old). Then we realised that she was reacting to the feed we were giving her. She had been kept very short of food as a youngster and then fed up quickly to get the weight back on by the breeder who bought her back, prior to selling her to us. We stopped all cereal/sugar feed and only fed her on hay/grass/alfalfa. Within a week she was like a different horse. I wouldn't have given her a child though as she was never completely trustworthy. We kept her until she was 24 but could never be absolutely certain that a passerby hadn't fed her on something completely unsuitable.
If you suspect ulcers, it would be worth feeding her aloe vera juice to see if that makes any difference while you are waiting for test results. My newest mare was threatening to bite when being girthed and AV has made a difference to her.
Incidentally, I would have smacked this pony too but most probably on the neck, rather than the muzzle. I find that the noise of an open-handed slap is very effective in re-inforcing the 'Don't do that!' message. TBH no matter how hard or where you smack a horse with your hand, you will not replicate the severity of a kick/bite by another horse.

 

[team barney]

Responding to a horse's aggression with corporal punishment as a training aid is a highly dangerous game to get into, especially with a horse whose first instinct is to fight, which seems to be the case with this mare.

I would be very wary of allowing this particular mare to become a child's pony as she offered a relatively high level of aggression from seemingly very little provocation. But there are other options than putting her down.

Perhaps you sister would consider loaning her to an adult. You could draw up a contract stating the mare is indefinitely and in the case that the loaner no longer wants her she will return to your sister to be p.t.s, if you cannot find another loaner that is.

 

[marmalade76]

Yes, such an attack would dent the relationship for me too, though I would hope not beyond repair.


Because horses are animals, not humans? Whether or not one accepts that violence is part of horses' nature and how they communicate (I think it is only a very minor part, and imo its importance is exaggerated by some), they are capable of quite brutal, dangerous actions towards humans - viz. kicks and bites. However, we shouldn't be too quick to take these actions personally as that can stop us dealing with the behaviour most effectively.

I am friendly with a parrot. Soon after we were introduced, she bit my finger - not hard enough to draw blood but hard enough to be d*mn painful. I reckoned I was a little too 'forward' in petting her before she got to know me. However, I didn't hit her for that bite (which no doubt would have blown any chances of her accepting me); nor did I say "Right, that's it, you b*starding bird! I hate you and I'm not going near you again!". I gave her another chance, and was more careful and 'polite' the next time I put my finger near her head. You might argue that parrots are not the same as horses, and you'd be right! But just like horses they may display aggressive actions towards humans for reasons that make a lot more sense when they are considered in the light of the fact they are animals and not another human. Kicks and bites may be defensive rather than malicious. In fact, they often are.

I have been around horses all my life, worked with horses, handled stallions, foals, youngstock, etc, etc. I've been kicked, bitten, been threatened in a very agressive manner, but I have never been on the recieveing end of nor seen a horse or pony viciously attack someone, with or without provocation. I have seen horses defend themselves, but that is different. What happened to the OP is highly unusual, and cannot be compared to a parrot nipping your finger, and I know parrots, my dad has had two of the bloody things!

 

[fburton]

I have been around horses all my life, worked with horses, handled stallions, foals, youngstock, etc, etc. I've been kicked, bitten, been threatened in a very agressive manner, but I have never been on the recieveing end of nor seen a horse or pony viciously attack someone, with or without provocation. I have seen horses defend themselves, but that is different. What happened to the OP is highly unusual, and cannot be compared to a parrot nipping your finger, and I know parrots, my dad has had two of the bloody things!

Nevertheless, the point about treating/viewing animals as animals not other humans still holds.

I too have worked with stallions, foals, youngstock and have had to deal with some very aggressive behaviour (though not by hitting). I have come across the kind of behaviour described. The pony was small, but extremely dangerous, because of his unpredictability and sheer speed. His apparent hatred of people stemmed from fear created by, we supposed, previous mistreatment which almost certainly including aggressive behaviour from humans who were scared of him. With patient and sensitive handling, we managed to get considerable improvement in his behaviour overall, including being able to do routine things like picking out feet and leading without him attempting to attack and bite, but not to the point where he could be trusted 100% with children (he was originally bought with a view to using him in a riding school). In the end, he could be handled safely enough by certain people who had the necessary confidence and tact, but never achieved his intended role.

I agree what happened to the OP is unusual. All the more reason, in my opinion, not to resort to reflex punishment. I hope someone who has experience with this kind of extreme behaviour gets to see the pony and can recommend a course of action that is truly useful to both OP and the pony.

 

[marmalade76]

With patient and sensitive handling, we managed to get considerable improvement in his behaviour overall, including being able to do routine things like picking out feet and leading without him attempting to attack and bite, but not to the point where he could be trusted 100% with children.

Nuff said.

 

[DragonSlayer]

Thanks Spudlet! Not many usually listen to such advice though....

My sons old pony (RIP ) used to run at us in the field and bite, drew blood too.

Don't recall hitting him....I seem to remember growling alot, we chased him around the field....god knows what he thought! lots of handling, and he turned into the sweetest little man ever. He was an ex-riding school pony, hell of a mess when we got him....and kicked along with the biting. My poor son (age 9-10 at the time) had to dodge a few times...but the patience won in the end.

I was told a few times to 'get rid....shoot it....never be any good....'..

Well, he turned out good enough to attend PC rallies and shows, was never great at jumping as we had to teach him from scratch (aged 22!) and when he died (colic, died the night after his op, sure...he was old, but had to give him the chance...)it made us realise just how he had changed since we had had him. We still miss him now, with his 'Frog Eyes'..!

I think it depends OP....the time, and effort you can afford to give.....

We all blow our own trumpets, but this pony was not the only one who had issues. Our 17.2 Shire X is still with us 10 years later, he used to attack me in the stable....

What worked?

Patience.

 

[AengusOg]

WARNING...this is a long post

Mogg...you are correct not to lay all the blame on the pony, and fair play to you for wondering if there is perhaps something you may do differently to help change her behaviour.

You would be wise to have the vet check your filly for anomalies which may affect her behaviour. However, I think your management of her may be the root cause of her behaviour toward you.

Looking at the way horses interact with and behave toward each other in a field situation can give us some clues to how we should view them, and how we can work with them, but humans cannot be horses. The way a horse acts and reacts in human company is unique to that particular relationship.

I think your filly's behaviour has been greatly influenced by her previous history of mismanagement, malnutrition, and her herd situation to date. Correct me if I am wrong, but I gather that she lived for a while with two others, one of which was fairly dominant but is now gone, and another who is still with her but whom she considers lower ranking than she. That being the case, I would guess that your filly is very insecure in her position, given her youth, and does not feel confident enough in your company to be accepting of you as higher ranking.

Owing to her sensitivity around her flanks, and your tentative handling of those areas, she will hover between acceptance of you, when she will feel confident, and insecurity, resulting in her wanting to challenge you periodically. She needs to be encouraged to accept you as a higher ranking member of the herd so that she feels safe.

This can be achieved by a sensible regime of groundwork, and for that you will need some guidance in how to work around her confidently. You will also have to learn how to read her better than you do at the moment. It will also be crucial for you to learn how to use 'pressure and release' techniques, and to understand how this will allow you to create a mutually trusting relationship.

Learning how 'advance and retreat' works for horse and handler will help you learn what your filly is willing to accept, what you can do to widen her experiences and become accepting of more, and how quickly you both can proceed through the training.

Sensitisation (exposure to new stimuli) and desensitisation (teaching acceptance of those stimuli) are very important parts of a horse's training, and go hand in hand with 'pressure and release' and 'advance and retreat'.

I would not, under any circumstances, use any negative tactics with your filly. That means no growling, no shouting, and definitely no physical violence, as these will only serve to make her fearful and resistant to learning. Horses being flight prone in adverse circumstances, it is very easy to cause them to become defensive and/or aggressive in response to physical reprimand, particularly in enclosed spaces, or where they are restrained or restricted in their movements.

I work with all horses using my voice only to praise good/correct behaviour. The halter is used to teach them to yield to gentle pressure, to cue them, to encourage them to try for me, and to keep them focussed.

I suspect that your filly is reading you better than you are her. This is why she appears to be sweet most of the time, then turns quickly to offensive behaviour. Horses are very quick to detect 'weaknesses' in their humans. They use that information to build a relationship which suits them, whether that be in relation to rank or, in some cases, to increase resistance to training. This can result in evasions such as napping, reluctance to longe, unwillingness to stand still for mounting, and other undesirable behaviours.

If the handler/trainer misreads, or completely misses, the importance of subtle signals from the horse, the horse will always want to push the boundaries of the relationship. For a training relationship to work, the trainer must be the one who controls the horse. Once the horse learns that the handler is ineffective, the training becomes a battle against the horse's resistance.

Controlling a horse does not mean domineering it. Nor does it mean forcing it to be servile. It means that the horse has to be conditioned to do as it is asked, when it is asked. This is achieved by starting with very simple exercises which teach the horse to yield to gentle pressure from the halter. Once a horse has learned to yield to pressure from the halter, he can learn to yield to pressure from the presence/energy of the trainer, and to voice aids. His ability to concentrate on the trainer is increased as he learns what is required of him, and he becomes compliant and willing to learn...but only if he is treated fairly and with consistency.

Your filly needs to learn that you have the confidence and ability to control the movement of her feet. This will involve you taking the initiative at all times. For example...in the field, when she approaches you, you should take up a confident stance and move toward her, head up and shoulders square to her, and be ready to lift your arms in the air and intimidate her enough so that she stops advancing toward you. When she does, you must watch her demeanour. If she stops and pricks her ears toward you, turn slightly away from her, which will invite her to come forward again.

As soon as she steps toward you, take up the confident stance again and block her. If she fails to stop, or merely hesitates and keeps coming, step quickly toward her and, using whatever 'force' required, ie jumping up and waving your arms in her face, make her stop or turn away. Immediately she does, turn slightly away again and allow her to relax. Keep doing this until she is watching you closely and responding quickly to your 'challenge'.

If she learns quickly that you can intimidate her and prevent her from walking straight into your safe area, you can then become passive and approach her. If she keeps her ears cocked toward you, allow her to be sociable with you but, if she shows any sign of laying her ears back, swishing her tail, or trying to bully you by stepping into your space, rise up and step in toward her and keep her out.

You must be the one who decides if she stays or goes, and if she must go, she must go when you decide. Stay safe and out of the kick zone, but any tendency from her to intimidate you must be met with a strong reaction from you. The aim is to teach her that if she comes to you and is nice about it, she can stay, but if she tries to be a bully, you will become dangerous. You may want to carry a coiled rope, so that you can wave it wildly at her if she fails to respond to your advance. If she turns her behind toward you, or tries to run over you, she may need to feel the rope across her backside or her face to dissuade her. You should only have to do this once, but you may have to do it.

Immediately she responds to your actions, you must take the pressure off her by becoming passive (but watchful, and willing to do it again if necessary).

At this point, she may not have actually tried to bite you or anything, but you are teaching her that she can only approach you if invited to do so, and that you will decide when and how she will move away. She will learn that you are the one who is the more dangerous and she must move away from you, not you from her.

The next stage, once you are happy that she has learned to respect you, is to put a pressure halter on her and teach her to yield to pressure when you ask her to back-up, step forward, step to the side, and follow you on a slack rope. If you use gentle but firm pressure, allow her to try things until she gets it right, release the pressure instantly she tries something even if she gives an incorrect response, praise her when she gets it right, try her again to help her associate cue with response, and keep the head, she will quickly learn how to pay attention and keep herself free of pressure. She should now be able to follow wherever you go, on a slack rope, needing only infrequent reminders from a slight tug on the halter if her attention wanders.

Teach her to react to a subtle signal on the halter, by giving her a little brief contact on the rope before you set off, and give her the chance to follow without having to be pulled around. Then you can teach her that when she is following, if you turn to face her and step in toward her, she must stop and, after a bit of further training, to back up from your body presence as you step in toward her.

I can teach horses this in a few minutes usually. If you can achieve this, over a few days if necessary, your pony will have a totally different attitude toward you. You can then start to use advance and retreat and pressure and release to build her acceptance of your hands all over her body.

I am passionate about my non-violent approach to training, and I use it with every horse I start, and with horses which require re-training. All horses, if given a chance to learn, without fear or force, can be changed for the better. Although not every pony is suitable for children, I believe that your 4yr old filly could be made into a lovely, trustworthy pony, who would be loved by someone. I think it would be tragic if she were PTS without a decent chance to prove herself.

If you would like me to come to Yorkshire to help you and your family work with her, I would be willing to come. If you paid my train fair (cheaper than driving down), and fed me, I would waive any fee.

Have a chat with your family, and PM me if you'd like to discuss my offer further.

 

[Roasted Chestnuts]

Great Post A-Og

 

[Ambypamby]

good luck.

 

[YasandCrystal]

I really like and agree with AengusOg's post. This is exactly how my friend is working with my aggressive WB and he is now trusting and kind with everyone.

The pressure and release system is proven - it works, whether it be an abused horse or one that has never been taught any groundwork manners. Consistency and patience are absolutely key.

 

[Kenzo]

I really like and agree with AengusOg's post. This is exactly how my friend is working with my aggressive WB and he is now trusting and kind with everyone.

The pressure and release system is proven - it works, whether it be an abused horse or one that has never been taught any groundwork manners. Consistency and patience are absolutely key.

AgenjusOG's has explained how I worked things through with my lad.

It takes a lot of time and hard work (as stated in my reply) but the result is very much worth it.

 

[lassiesuca]

Thanks Spudlet! Not many usually listen to such advice though....


What worked?

Patience.

Amen! Hit the nail spot on the head there

Patience and perseverance- both go a long, long way.

I feel some members have painted a horrible picture of this pony. This problem can be fixed, it may take some time, but it is plausible. It can be fixed with time, patience and also understanding.


I think that whacking them limits you as a trainer, because it only teaches them what NOT to do. Sometimes it's better to teach them WHAT to do.

I did something called counter conditioning with my youngster. He is the sort of horse that likes doing things, likes to think and will get bored otherwise. One of the first things we did in training was learn to pick up a ring and put it on a cone. It took some time, but I found this a really good way to stop biting in training. He had something in his mouth to focus on, and he really flourished at the challenge. Now we can train the 'boring' stuff, and he's become a super star at it! Giving them something to occupy them is also another thing. We need to rule out the medical aspect of this first, as that is most likely. But in the mean time, explore other things too!


I find that ponies, more so than horses, love to do things. It's their nature and so instead of fighting this, I have used it to my advantage. It's the same with food. He used to mug me for one treat, because they were highly motivating. Instead of removing them, I've trained him to respect food and treats and we use them in training (I clicker train), by using the thing that motivates him most, allows me to get the most out of work and training!

Emma Lethbridge is up your way, and she's a marvelous trainer and behaviourist (also recommend her book). Check out her website and give her a buzz, she's more than happy to help and very experienced and accomplished as trainer (currently doing her PhD in Psychology and has a degree in Animal Behaviour amongst about 10 other qualifications!), she's experienced and used to this kind of issue. I cannot recommend her enough.

Don't give up on this little filly, because sometimes, they can become the best ponies ! I learnt that, they become loyal and so much fun to be around. So don't give up!

 

[Annie44]

I fully endorse everything AengusOg said.

I took on a rescue pony who was fear aggressive due to extreme abuse, he had zero training/handling apart from this in his first 7 years. He had already been returned from a previous adoption as dangerous & unhandleable.
I used the exact same methods as AengusOg & almost from day one the pony improved in leaps & bounds. He has become the most sweet natured pony you could wish to own, he just loves human company & is very affectionate towards his 'people'

 

[Redd]

Haven't read all the posts so apologies if I'm repeating anyone.

I would suggest checking for gastric (stomach) ulcers, particularly if it has come on gradually since the poor horse will be feeling worse and worse. You say the pony was in poor condition with a high worm count. Have you recked the worm count and also have you done bloods for tapeworm? The reason I suggest checking for gastric ulcers is that my rescue horse (not rescued by me) approx 6 years after rescuing in very poor condition etc, was found to have bad gastric ulcers. He is the laid back sort and has never bitten people etc, but always hated to be groomed, saddle put on etc. A few weeks after treatment for the gastric ulcers he started to love being groomed, even trying to groom my hair in return! He is much happier since treatment.

Just another thought - have you tried a mctimoney chiropractor or something incase the pony's back is badly out and painfull nerves are being tweaked or something like that?

Good luck with sorting the problem.