Position and puppy-dog hands

[Handsome Jack]

I am just wondering and have been sitting on my hands but as I look through at the photos of horses during training and dressage shows does anyone else wonder on the riders position, so many hunched forward, leg back and puppy-dog hands - turned/twisted wrists....how can you communicate and truly ride correctly - is this not a big deal in the UK?

 

[Bernster]

Not sure I know what puppy dog hands are - sounds cute ;-)

I for one am sure I would take hideous photos as I am often all over the shop in terms of my position, so def can't criticise. But despite having lots of instructors who I have gotten along with well, and have learned lots from, there has only ever been 1 instructor who really focussed on my position. And then I had lessons with Mary Wanless, and learned to love the more biomechanical approach to riding/teaching. Still a rarity amongst many instructors ime though.

 

[Handsome Jack]

Not sure I know what puppy dog hands are - sounds cute ;-)

I for one am sure I would take hideous photos as I am often all over the shop in terms of my position, so def can't criticise. But despite having lots of instructors who I have gotten along with well, and have learned lots from, there has only ever been 1 instructor who really focussed on my position. And then I had lessons

ETAwith Mary Wanless, and learned to love the more biomechanical approach to riding/teaching. Still a rarity amongst many instructors ime though.

I guess I mean no thumbs on top....drummed into all of us at the beginning but seems to somewhere disappeared - I guess I am lucky as position is so important to my instructor and you can honestly go to clinics and shows and put money on who they ride with - I am stunned that its a focus - I know that if I sit correctly, riding the hind end and not interfering my horse can stretch and go over his back, and that if I do not have the correct contact I can not communicate effectively...

ETA - sorry stunned its not a focus

 

[Farma]

I am all for correct position and classical seat BUT if you watch some of the top riders ie Geoff Billington

 

[Farma]

Sorry posted too early ....They are far from correct however extremely effective!

 

[Handsome Jack]

I am all for correct position and classical seat BUT if you watch some of the top riders ie Geoff Billington

off to google Geoff...

 

[Handsome Jack]

oh dear.....

 

[soulfull]

oh dear.....

That made me laugh

In answer to your original question, yes most of us are taught to use a correct body and hand position, but sometimes we fail. However I do not ride hunched over with turned in hands

 

[pigsmight:)]

I sometimes think its a case of what works for you, the horse you are riding and what you are trying to achieve. lots of riders who don't have a classicly correct riding style are able to get good results from a range of horses and I think this is often down to 'feel'. This is my humble opinion but may also be me trying to make excuses for my hunched shoulders

 

[Handsome Jack]

I really struggle with it, the overall visual is very important, and your physicality has such a huge affect on the horses and its ability to work correctly....getting good results can become really quite excellent results....

 

[glamourpuss]

Urgh...I understand questioning things but it does feel on HHO that all it has become is bitching about how everyone else rides/feeds/shoes/rugs their horses.
You're damned if you have the smallest of bad habits, akin to the devil if your horse falls behind the vertical & shouldn't be allowed near a horse if you want to put more than 1 rug on it 😂

Anyway personally, I know how I want to ride, I know what the perfect position is. I'm working on it (with my instructor) I really truely am.....but I still look like a bloomin' hunchback 😥
I can have a tendency to round my wrists. I think it comes from my severe case of 'slippery rein disease' with a side infection of TISS (tension in shoulders syndrome)
Both are hopefully being addresssed!

 

[Goldenstar]

It's great to be perfect .

 

[Cortez]

I think the problem in this part of the world is that we don't have a "national" school of riding like some continental countries where there is an unbroken line back to the court riding. Our traditions are based in hunting and racing which is more "anything goes" to get the job done. There are poor riders in every country of course, but it would be nice not to see some of the sights that are all too common around here. Unfortunately most of the training/riding problems people have with their horses are down to poor riding and ineffective (I use a euphemism...) position.

And it is indeed great to be perfect, which is why we are all striving towards that, non?

 

[Goldenstar]

I am striving to the best I can be I know that's not perfect .
I don't think it's creditable or sensible to judge what others are striving to achieve by looking a pictures taken by others .
Very very few riders look perfect at all times during the heat of competition .
I simply don't think that judging what a equestrian nation as a whole is trying to do by looking at magazine pictures is a valid way to go about making that judgment.
We have many great and I mean great riders in Britain we have great depth of knowledge we have a good more modern training system developing we have millions of horses leading very very nice lives yes there's all sorts out there doing horses some better than ever but equestrian Armageddon it's not .
Yes we have welfare issues and other problems but generally Britain is a good place to be a horse .

 

[atlantis]

oh dear.....

Yes that's my thought on his position too!! However I do think he comes across as a thoroughly nice bloke, and has done lovely horses (It's Otto!!!) although I've never met him.

I made a pact to myself when I returned to lessons after having my little girl that I'm going to do as I'm told!!! Even if it feels very wrong. It worked initially and my position improved immensely!!! Not has any lessons on lottie yet but it's the next thing to do now she's sound.

To relearn new behaviour we have to repeat it over and over until it becomes automatic. I think it's important to find an instructor who concentrates on position as well as other things.

I also really fancy some lessons on a mechanical horse, preferably with Heather Moffatt!!

 

[Palindrome]

I think the problem in this part of the world is that we don't have a "national" school of riding like some continental countries where there is an unbroken line back to the court riding. Our traditions are based in hunting and racing which is more "anything goes" to get the job done. There are poor riders in every country of course, but it would be nice not to see some of the sights that are all too common around here. Unfortunately most of the training/riding problems people have with their horses are down to poor riding and ineffective (I use a euphemism...) position.

And it is indeed great to be perfect, which is why we are all striving towards that, non?

Not sure Cortez, at least not in France. My little sister's riding instructor idea of dressage (in France) is to go round the school wearing a gogue. Literally riding instructor would say we are doing dressage so everyone put their gogue on, she is more of a showjumper but still! I should say that was her old instructor, the new instructor wants her to use draw reins and other weirder contraptions (on a perfectly fine PRE mare that just needs a consistent contact)!!!

Forgot the best bit: "but she said I need draw reins/weird contraption to learn to use 2 set of reins!".... yeah, am buying her a pelham for her birthday.

As to the OP, I guess people do their best, perhaps get in touch with them and offer them free lunge lessons .

 

[oldie48]

Oh goodness I am so glad this is a known condition I thought I was the only one with it. I also have tight knee syndrome with an occasional attack of foetal position, usually when I get very nervous. I've considered a range of medical interventions, including chopping my legs off from the knee so I can have "stubby legs" (please see centred riding) to wearing a steel back brace attached to the saddle. I have, however, a cure for slippery rein disease (loops at the appropriate length)but unfortunately it's not BD legal. I do find, though, that if a horse is going beautifully for a rider, i can happily overlook their position and just admire the partnership.QUOTE=glamourpuss;12820844]
I can have a tendency to round my wrists. I think it comes from my severe case of 'slippery rein disease' with a side infection of TISS (tension in shoulders syndrome)
Both are hopefully being addresssed![/QUOTE]

 

[Cortez]

..........also known as "Piano hands"...........

 

[samleigh]

I have a new instructor, a young Yorkshire lad, who says it like it is, I am just old enough to be his mum! He has taken my riding APART, but putting the hurt feelings aside I know he is 100% right, its proving difficult to retrain myself but I go home try to process his words & practise and practise, I too suffer from slippery rein syndrome & TISS + too many other habits, these too are being addressed.
If anyone can explain how to slow the trot using my seat only (this weeks homework) I'd appreciate other discriptions

 

[Farma]

I have a new instructor, a young Yorkshire lad, who says it like it is, I am just old enough to be his mum! He has taken my riding APART, but putting the hurt feelings aside I know he is 100% right, its proving difficult to retrain myself but I go home try to process his words & practise and practise, I too suffer from slippery rein syndrome & TISS + too many other habits, these too are being addressed.
If anyone can explain how to slow the trot using my seat only (this weeks homework) I'd appreciate other discriptions

just rise smaller in rising trot to slow with the seat, ride with your arms out in front in trot so you have no contact at all then make the trot bigger and smaller. Don't over complicate it just ride a bit smaller to make it a bit smaller. if you have no contact at all you cant cheat!

 

[russianhorse]

I have an instructor now to merrily pull apart my riding

By all accounts I drop my left shoulder a lot, have a flappy useless left arm and go a bit stiff coming into canter. I, however had no idea I was doing it, so unless someone tells you we all can be slightly imperfect in our riding

 

[Handsome Jack]

I am pleased that you do seem to have some hard ar&*d instructors having my position/a*&*e kicked on a regular basis is very important to me - my horse is now trained, its me that needs the work!

 

[Firewell]

Gosh I'm awful with my hands! I have arthritis in my wrists which isn't really an excuse but does make it hard!
I do think here in America they train their riders to be so beautifully stylish. The equitation they do really drills in a good position and they look absolutely lovely.
Until the horse is naughty and then it becomes apparent that a lot are taught to look pretty on well trained horses! They have no real seat at all.
Then there is us hardy Brits . Might not look the most correct but we sure know how to stick on!! I think we generally have good feel too. It's amazing how some people here sit beautifully but are not that effective.
Of course I am not speaking about everyone but it something I have noticed on the amature show circuit this summer .

 

[Slightlyconfused]

I really struggle with it, the overall visual is very important, and your physicality has such a huge affect on the horses and its ability to work correctly....getting good results can become really quite excellent results....

then you would hate to see me ride sometimes. I have hypermobility in my hips, means they don't always go in the right position when riding when they are going through their popping out phase.

sometimes its the only way the rider can ride, the horse will adapt to a point. mine have, especially for my disabled brother who cant put his heels down or do thumbs on top as he has limited grip in his hands. my horses still go beautifully for him.

 

[Slightlyconfused]

just rise smaller in rising trot to slow with the seat, ride with your arms out in front in trot so you have no contact at all then make the trot bigger and smaller. Don't over complicate it just ride a bit smaller to make it a bit smaller. if you have no contact at all you cant cheat!

this, I also found chanting "slow, trot, slow trot" helped my slow my rising down and "Go, Go, Go" helped me speed it up. its all in the rhythm and speed

 

[Lyle]

Well, I'll put my hand up to say I'm not perfect! I get round shouldered, a little hunchy and grippy with my lower leg. Years of riding OTTB's and young horses has given me the most awful habit of raising my inside leg to give an aid. My hands also move too much! I re-watch video's of my younger, more flexible self riding my lovely, sensitive, highly schooled eventer doing all sorts of clever things and while maintaining a great position. Le Sigh.

I have a very physical job which severely impacts my riding. I have to do lots of leg stretches after a day of work just to be able to softly reach my stirrups! I'm taking up Pilates to increase my flexibility and core strength, which I really hope will help! I'm conscious of my position, but in the heat of a tests I will forgo position for effectiveness. If that horse needs to move over I'll tell it with my all!!

 

[spookypony]

I do think here in America they train their riders to be so beautifully stylish. The equitation they do really drills in a good position and they look absolutely lovely.
Until the horse is naughty and then it becomes apparent that a lot are taught to look pretty on well trained horses! They have no real seat at all.
Then there is us hardy Brits . Might not look the most correct but we sure know how to stick on!! I think we generally have good feel too. It's amazing how some people here sit beautifully but are not that effective.
Of course I am not speaking about everyone but it something I have noticed on the amature show circuit this summer .

I suspect you may be right about that, though as you expand your travels, you'll come to realise that if one thing characterises North America, it's diversity...my experience is limited to the area of Canada where I grew up, and to the two places in the US where I started riding regularly again. In our area, there were at least 3 distinct schools: the Western riders, the English riders (who seemed to be "hunt seat", from what I can tell retrospectively, which is related to the phenomenon you observed, I think), and the Germans, who generally were German or Austrian, sometimes one or two generations removed, and who dominated the dressage scene in our area (for fairly obvious reasons). I landed with the latter group, and was very confused, upon starting with a hunt-seat-orientated club in the US!

As to "piano hands", can anyone tell me how I'm supposed to prevent whichever hand is holding the schooling whip from acquiring a bit of a tilt? I think that's physically impossible, when my hand is where it should be...

 

[Cortez]

Not at all; don't grip the whip (which most people do), let it just rest in your hand, on top of the rein - it should hang more or less straight down until you choose to use it. A whip which lies at an angle, or worse parallel to the ground, is a tell tale sign of stiff wrists and gripping hands.

 

[Goldenstar]

Not at all; don't grip the whip (which most people do), let it just rest in your hand, on top of the rein - it should hang more or less straight down until you choose to use it. A whip which lies at an angle, or worse parallel to the ground, is a tell tale sign of stiff wrists and gripping hands.

Also get a whip with a big knob at the which is flat these won't go through you're hand when you are getting the hang of holding the whip loosely .

 

[spookypony]

Also get a whip with a big knob at the which is flat these won't go through you're hand when you are getting the hang of holding the whip loosely .

Ah yes, noticing that it's slid most of the way out of my hand is a common fault of mine; I don't tend to grip it. It certainly doesn't stick straight out, it just rests on my leg. I still don't understand how it can hang vertically, though, since my leg is in the way, unless my hands were really really far apart! I don't think I'm explaining very well...