Position of the head in dressage movements

What tells you that modern dressage is incorrect?

Salinero can't have had too much damage, joint injections don't cover up everything...
 
Goldenstar said:
Why would you be asking a young horse not confirmed in it's balance to collect ?
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If he has lost a balance for a second for some external reason I would do that, if a horse has problems with balance than he is not a dressage horse and we are talking about dressage horses here, that are already balanced and doing dressage.

I personaly dont have a problem with young unbalanced horses, my young horses have never been unbalanced. I work with them a lot from the ground, prepare them to carry themselves and the rider, ride step by step, having always rithym and correct cues in mind which are the key to the balance.

If your horse is totally out of balance when you are riding him than I would reccomend a professional rider who has an experience with young horses.
 
Dressage horses do not start out balanced .
No matter how talented they are young dressage horses have to learn their balance under saddle they are no different to all horses in this respect .
 
Goldenstar said:
Dressage horses do not start out balanced .
No matter how talented they are young horses have to learn their balance under saddle they are no different to all horses in this respect .
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I am talking in this topic about horses who already learned their balance under saddle, and are competing, I am not talking about marely broken under the saddle horses who cant walk properly under the rider. Regarding this kind of horses I would strongly reccomend working from the ground first so when you do mount he has had all the help from the ground possible, so he has less problems under the saddle. To correct the problems I would pay atention to the rigth rythm for the young horse, the rigth cues at the right time and going step by step. But actually if my horse was severely unbalanced under me I would call a proper trainer and let him do the job properly.
 
And I am asking you how you deal with the young horse altering it's outline due inexperience.
I appreciate English is your second language but I am asking a straight question .why would you be asking a horse altering it's outline due to inexperience to collect .
You do own the thread you can't choose the questions that are posted .
You can of course choose not to answer and all following the thread can make what inferences they choose from that.
 
Goldenstar said:
And I am asking you how you deal with the young horse altering it's outline due inexperience.
I appreciate English is your second language but I am asking a straight question .why would you be asking a horse altering it's outline due to inexperience to collect .
You do own the thread you can't choose the questions that are posted .
You can of course choose not to answer and all following the thread can make what inferences they choose from that.
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I clarified the second one, I wouldnt ask for unbalanced young horse to collect. I wrote the collection part for a competing dressage horse who has lost his balance for a moment due to external influence, not because he is unbalanced.

For a young horse I would ask for a slower rythm, and with my seat and hands ask him to stretch his neck and head and come to a better balance. Also talking to him in a calm and assuring manner to relax him.

But rarely the very unbalanced movements are the fault of a horse, mostly it is a rider with a bad seat.
 
Lola13 said:
But rarely the very unbalanced movements are the fault of a horse, mostly it is a rider with a bad seat.
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agree it can be a huge rider issue, but you are very lucky if you have never met unbalanced horses. I've got some horses in who literally tip over their own feet even with no rider. Or ones who have always been on the forehand and struggle to balance.

The perfectly trained-from-the-ground-up dressage horses would be a million miles away from what my experiences would be. And a lot of people on this site too I'd imagine. I think what would be interesting to ask is how you treat the contact on a normal horse that has maybe bad conformation and doesn't understand contact?

From some of the views in the discussion so far, people make it sound damaging to the horse for it to be behind or in front of the vertical. While from my experience i don't care where the head is once the horse is working on being relaxed, rhythmic and forward. If someone took pictures of it im sure the head wouldn't be 'theoretically perfect' at times. Discussions like this tend to drift off into an ideal world of dressage where people are picking superstars apart for having the nose an inch behind. But that doesn't help normal riders on the ground to get a complete picture of what is good practice in reality i think.
 
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I always disagree when people say to leave the head and neck completely alone, that can't work either. You have to provide a contact for a horse to work into otherwise any energy you've created will just fall out the front door. And what some people seem to forget is that the neck is part of the spine, you need to be able to influence the neck to be able to influence the back. You can't have a relaxed back without a relaxed neck!
 
paddi22 said:
agree it can be a huge rider issue, but you are very lucky if you have never met unbalanced horses. I've got some horses in who literally tip over their own feet even with no rider. Or ones who have always been on the forehand and struggle to balance.

The perfectly trained-from-the-ground-up dressage horses would be a million miles away from what my experiences would be. And a lot of people on this site too I'd imagine. I think what would be interesting to ask is how you treat the contact on a normal horse that has maybe bad conformation and doesn't understand contact?

From some of the views in the discussion so far, people make it sound damaging to the horse for it to be behind or in front of the vertical. While from my experience i don't care where the head is once the horse is working on being relaxed, rhythmic and forward. If someone took pictures of it im sure the head wouldn't be 'theoretically perfect' at times. Discussions like this tend to drift off into an ideal world of dressage where people are picking superstars apart for having the nose an inch behind. But that doesn't help normal riders on the ground to get a complete picture of what is good practice in reality i think.
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I cannot offer much help on the horses with bad conformation,tipping all the time etc. I have ridden some a little but thats about it. I have to say that they were horses that have been ridden by other people incorrectly. They were horses that have been tought everything wrong. But with that kind of horses I soften the contact even more than with a regular horse, and use soft cues, except for the seat.

For example horse was tought by other riders: 1.Bring the head down cue was used for slowing down the horse who rushes all the time and it was not helping at all. 2.Half halt cue was used to change gait. 3. Horse was being turned by a sharp angle, by hands only so he was completely unbendable. 4.Because of bad conformation tipping constantly, always on the foreheand and very heavy in the hands constantly rushing. 5.Desensitised on seat cues and oversensitized on leg cues.

When I sat on that horse I was completely baffled. So I did the best I could, I decreased any cue intensity (except for seat) from very, very gentle to practicly non existant, but I gave all the right cues constantly. I asked the horse to slow down dramatically and used legs and seat to encourage correct movements, while with my hands asking the horse to relax the neck and bring the head down and bend with my whole body (not collection, just to normal head level because his head was up in the air) I mainly asked him to relax, strech, bring the head down, slow down, accept the new light cues and accept them correctly, accept constant, engaged and correct seat cues, and bend (just ligtly for beginning). After a month that horse was a delight to ride, it wasnt excellent but it was going in that direction. After that for some time I couldnt come and someone else was riding him, and when came after a break and I mounted it was the same as before, the horse has returned to his old habbits. So I gave up because I cannot go there often enaogh to keep him in correct training. If he remained in correct training in future he could do dressage.

I have ridden one other horse like that one time but he had extremely bad conformation, I could make him to go nicely but any attempt to strive to some more serious dressage work in the future would be pointless and damaging to the horse so I quit immediately. Didnt see the point in riding at all such a horse.
 
shortstuff99 said:
I always disagree when people say to leave the head and neck completely alone, that can't work either. You have to provide a contact for a horse to work into otherwise any energy you've created will just fall out the front door. And what some people seem to forget is that the neck is part of the spine, you need to be able to influence the neck to be able to influence the back. You can't have a relaxed back without a relaxed neck!
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Greatly said!
 
I'm really interested in your discussions Lola13.

Would you be willing to post some videos of you working a few different horses as an example of what you are trying to explain?
 
This is what puts me off Dressage as I think what a lot of Dressage Judges 'like' is not necessarily beneficial for the horse. I tend to work my horse's with the concept of forward and out into a contact which encourages them to stretch into it and work over their backs and also really encourage them to bend around their corners and stretch through their shoulders too. Once this is all achieved, I encourage lift through the shoulders from the same 'stretchy' outline, completely avoiding drawing the head back towards the chest which just encourages them to bend and hollow IMO.
 
shortstuff99 said:
I always disagree when people say to leave the head and neck completely alone, that can't work either. You have to provide a contact for a horse to work into otherwise any energy you've created will just fall out the front door. And what some people seem to forget is that the neck is part of the spine, you need to be able to influence the neck to be able to influence the back. You can't have a relaxed back without a relaxed neck!
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its not leaving the head and neck alone though, I put that badly, its just not making them the focus of what is happening with rest of the horse. Obviously it should be a soft supporting contact. but to switch it round, you can't have a relaxed neck without a relaxed back first either!
 
OP have you mostly ridden uphill warmbloods? As opposed to traditional cobs/native ponies/thoroughbreds?

I have a balanced, flexible welshie whose favourite evasion is to duck behind the contact, usually an indication that he isn't going forwards sufficiently. He is very good for teaching people that horses must go forwards from behind first. Softer cues wouldn't work with him, you need to be quite clear with your expectations.
 
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ihatework said:
I'm really interested in your discussions Lola13.

Would you be willing to post some videos of you working a few different horses as an example of what you are trying to explain?
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I will be making videos in some time, I just bought a camera, just dont have someone to film me so I am saving money to buy this http://www.movensee.com/store/pixio-robot-cameraman.html It will make my life so much easyer :)

You can send me your email via private message here, so I can send you the links when I will have the videos.
 
I think talking about abut the head position automatically brings you onto talking about just that and how it is achieved.

If people spent just as much time talking about engagement and impulsion, I wonder if we would have ever been in such a situation we are now internationally.

All everyone ever talks about is the leg movers and never about how the body is moving. Now we have generations of young people who have no clue about how horses move and how to ride unless they buy as much leather, webbing and sheepskin as they possibly can to strap the head to it's chest to make their tb look like totilas.

If we concentrated on impulsion, engagement and getting the body strong enough to become "on the bit", I think there would be less problems. I don't think HHO and other horse magazines are helping either.
 
But for most riders influencing the neck is easier then influencing the back (seeing as the neck is in front of you and most of the back is behind you) so learning how to relax the neck correctly will vastly improve a horse's way of going (through the back).
 
spotty_pony2 said:
This is what puts me off Dressage as I think what a lot of Dressage Judges 'like' is not necessarily beneficial for the horse. I tend to work my horse's with the concept of forward and out into a contact which encourages them to stretch into it and work over their backs and also really encourage them to bend around their corners and stretch through their shoulders too. Once this is all achieved, I encourage lift through the shoulders from the same 'stretchy' outline, completely avoiding drawing the head back towards the chest which just encourages them to bend and hollow IMO.
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I agree completely, modern dressage horses remind me of huge accordions, simply squished in the middle :(
 
shortstuff99 said:
But for most riders influencing the neck is easier then influencing the back (seeing as the neck is in front of you and most of the back is behind you) so learning how to relax the neck correctly will vastly improve a horse's way of going (through the back).
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Influence it how exactly?
 
ester said:
OP have you mostly ridden uphill warmbloods? As opposed to traditional cobs/native ponies/thoroughbreds?

I have a balanced, flexible welshie whose favourite evasion is to duck behind the contact, usually an indication that he isn't going forwards sufficiently. He is very good for teaching people that horses must go forwards from behind first. Softer cues wouldn't work with him, you need to be quite clear with your expectations.
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I have ridden all kind of horses, ponies, arabs, warmbloods, coldbloods, througbreds, cobs. And I have ridden some horses that dont respond to any leg cue whatsever, or jump in the air on slightest contact. No matter of the breed. Thats when seat is the only humane option until the horse starts responding to leg normaly. (I dont want to overuse the reins or spurs). Last thing I want is a horse that has to be sqeezed all the time to just go foward. You could possibly teach him with seat and leg cues to respond only to seat cue for forward motion. And then teach students to improve their seat.
 
Lots of ways :) whichever suits your horse. I like to use slight flexions between straight to inside/outside from which I taught on the ground first when I was backing. I ask for flexions using my legs and seat (not pulling with my hands only ever guiding). I've taught my horse to trust the contact so now I can raise/lower/flex the neck as needed. This is obviously in conjunction with working on impulse on etc not just the neck.
 
Lola13 said:
I have ridden all kind of horses, ponies, arabs, warmbloods, coldbloods, througbreds, cobs. And I have ridden some horses that dont respond to any leg cue whatsever, or jump in the air on slightest contact. No matter of the breed. Thats when seat is the only humane option until the horse starts responding to leg normaly. (I dont want to overuse the reins or spurs). Last thing I want is a horse that has to be sqeezed all the time to just go foward. You could possibly teach him with seat and leg cues to respond only to seat cue for forward motion. And then teach students to improve their seat.
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You misunderstand you don't have to nag him, just be clear. As my instructor would say he is a legs off pony, rather than a hot type who you would want to get a little more used to presence of legs.

I don't have students, but he has a couple of sharers that he has been showing the ropes too in his older age.

If you are only using the seat how do you get the horse to start responding to the leg normally if you aren't using it? I think you are lucky if none of those horses you have ridden have been conformationally challenged.

Out of interest are you hoping to somehow get wholesale change in competitive dressage?
 
shortstuff99 said:
Lots of ways :) whichever suits your horse. I like to use slight flexions between straight to inside/outside from which I taught on the ground first when I was backing. I ask for flexions using my legs and seat (not pulling with my hands only ever guiding). I've taught my horse to trust the contact so now I can raise/lower/flex the neck as needed. This is obviously in conjunction with working on impulse on etc not just the neck.
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Just flexions of the neck? So your horse just looks left or right with variations on height?

So what happens to the spine?
 
ester said:
You misunderstand you don't have to nag him, just be clear. As my instructor would say he is a legs off pony, rather than a hot type who you would want to get a little more used to presence of legs.

I don't have students, but he has a couple of sharers that he has been showing the ropes too in his older age.

If you are only using the seat how do you get the horse to start responding to the leg normally if you aren't using it? I think you are lucky if none of those horses you have ridden have been conformationally challenged.

Out of interest are you hoping to somehow get wholesale change in competitive dressage?
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Not using seat only, but as a main cue.

I am not hoping for competing, but I will be expected to train horses for dressage, competitions are not obligatory. But online "competitions" sound like a good idea, to get a feedback from the judges, it will also make an interesting experiment, what do judes think about clasicaly trained horses.
 
Lola13 said:
Not using seat only, but as a main cue.

I am not hoping for competing, but I will be expected to train horses for dressage, competitions are not obligatory. But online "competitions" sound like a good idea, to get a feedback from the judges, it will also make an interesting experiment, what do judes think about clasicaly trained horses.
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Classical is not a "new" way... rather it's the "back to basics" way. It returns back to the rulebook, back to the dressage rules.

Competition, has ripped up the rulebook and thrown it to the dogs as you can see.... who do think rewarded this in the first place?? You ask what judges think?? I think you know Lola.
 
No my flexion is not turning the head. Infact the 'head' hardly seems to move. What you are wanting is a 'relaxation' to the flex, and the flex can be in different parts of the neck/body. Eg, poll or base of neck or rib cage. What you are aiming to do is release tension through the whole spine so the contact can be taken forwards and out.
 
tallyho! said:
Classical is not a "new" way... rather it's the "back to basics" way. It returns back to the rulebook, back to the dressage rules.

Competition, has ripped up the rulebook and thrown it to the dogs as you can see.... who do think rewarded this in the first place?? You ask what judges think?? I think you know Lola.
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I agree, but I want to hear their comments, one more inspiration to explore this topic more in depth. I dont think people should be discouraged from ridding propper dressage just because of what judges think. When I buy a new horse that will be dressage prospect horse, I might in the future want to compete. Why let the clasical dressage die out.
 
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