Position of the head in dressage movements

I did a little research via Google last night and fried my brain. There's a small voice in my head whispering 'Emperor's New Clothes'. Who decides all these rules and what are they based on? The scant research out there seems to be discipline specific or skewed to favour your product. The only reliable indicator I can fathom is soundness following one specific training style. I did find out that my saddle needs to go back an inch tbough.
 
Goldenstar said:
Collection is at the top of the training pyramid in the young horse collection may be the eventual aim but when training the young horses collection would be very low on the things I would be thinking about .
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Ultimate collection is at the top of the pyramid but as I said - everytime you improve the degree of hindlegs under the body you are developing collection.

Each degree of collection increases the engagement and activity of the quarters - you may not be actively thinking 'collection' but you are actually building on it as your work progresses through the levels

Lets remember the first true 'collecting' exercise is Shoulder In - only Elementary level!
 
Goldenstar said:
I think sports change .
Classical dressage , who turely knows what classical is or was ,now a days the Duke of Newcastles methods who have us all running for the hills screaming .
Who knows what modern dressage is the top riders ride in different ways you can't lump them all together and say they do the same thing .
I think it was Kottas who said the most important thing you look for in a performance / partnership is harmony and I think you won't go far wrong if you keep that in mind .
I find it hard to get in a sweat about things because teaching horses to go round in circles is really a stupid and esoteric way to spend your time when you look at the big picture .
So CH does things in a way that Lola13 does not like , Lola13 thinks I am not fit to train horses because my young horses lose their balance and experiment with where they put their heads and I let them get on with it .
Lola13 expects her young horses to be capable of collection and never to lose their balance as long as she never in charge of one of mine I am happy with that too .
Lola13 can compete and prove her way is better if she's so minded ,personally I can think of nothing worse than traveling round Europe doing dressage tests .

When I look at my horses I know they are happy and work willingly they have a nice life I am not deluded in this it's just how it is .
We have a harmonious time ,they enjoy life ,to me that's what matters .
I think with horses it's the big picture that counts as I get older I become less and less interested in anything more than this .
If a classical riders horse is happy in it's work that's good enough for me , Valegro ( I pick him out because he's been used on the thread as the example of bad training )does always look confident in himself and his rider.
I think what I am trying to say if the horse is happy and in harmony with it's rider ,perhaps it's my age , but that's good enough for me .
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I am talking about correct classical dressage, there were a lot of people who used to turn dressage into something bad, just like there are people today who are doing that.
Most of modern riders ride behind the vertical, that is the link between them, about the methods how they achieve that we didnt even talked in this thread. But we can if you want to.

Regarding Kottas here is the quote from an inerview with him :“ Whereas, we always want the poll to be the highest point with the nose in front of the vertical. „

I said regarding your question about balance, if your horses are extremely unbalanced, try with more experienced trainer, you will quickly see where the problem is, and you will quickly know what to do, two heads are better than one. That is all I wanted to say. It is not a shame to ask your trainer a question, or for help, actually it is the best you can do.

So dressage is stupid for you? Why are you posting on a thread thats named „Positions of the head in dressage movements“ then?

Oh my gosh, I never said I expect a young horse to collect, I was talking about „young“ dressage horse that is already competing, I corrected the mistake twice by saying what I expect of a young horse: balance and relaxation.

OK kill me for having horses who are well balanced to start with, preparing them from the ground to have less problems under saddle and then riding them correctly. (Again no collection for a young horse)

I dont know how you managed to conclude I am going to drag my horse all over the Europe constantly, I only said I might compete, never said how much. For me it is ok to go on a few trips a year, if a horse likes to travel to different places and enjoys the attention, new environments, meeting new horses, people etc.

I aplaud you for only wanting for your horses to be happy, and work in the area that doesnt affect their happiness. That is my goal too for manny years, that is why I stopped competing regularely.
 
Goldenstar said:
I think sports change .
Classical dressage , who turely knows what classical is or was ,now a days the Duke of Newcastles methods who have us all running for the hills screaming .
Who knows what modern dressage is the top riders ride in different ways you can't lump them all together and say they do the same thing .
I think it was Kottas who said the most important thing you look for in a performance / partnership is harmony and I think you won't go far wrong if you keep that in mind .
I find it hard to get in a sweat about things because teaching horses to go round in circles is really a stupid and esoteric way to spend your time when you look at the big picture .
So CH does things in a way that Lola13 does not like , Lola13 thinks I am not fit to train horses because my young horses lose their balance and experiment with where they put their heads and I let them get on with it .
Lola13 expects her young horses to be capable of collection and never to lose their balance as long as she never in charge of one of mine I am happy with that too .
Lola13 can compete and prove her way is better if she's so minded ,personally I can think of nothing worse than traveling round Europe doing dressage tests .

When I look at my horses I know they are happy and work willingly they have a nice life I am not deluded in this it's just how it is .
We have a harmonious time ,they enjoy life ,to me that's what matters .
I think with horses it's the big picture that counts as I get older I become less and less interested in anything more than this .
If a classical riders horse is happy in it's work that's good enough for me , Valegro ( I pick him out because he's been used on the thread as the example of bad training )does always look confident in himself and his rider.
I think what I am trying to say if the horse is happy and in harmony with it's rider ,perhaps it's my age , but that's good enough for me .
Click to expand...

I sort of know where you are coming from - many years ago I was quite happy with the way my horses were going UNTIL I went to work for Jennie Lorriston-Clarke and I got to ride Grand Prix horses every day - WOW - my first Piaffe - WOW - when I left there and went back to riding my own horses and schooling others I realised that mine were like wooden planks.

Riding a well trained high level dressage horse is incredible! Spurred me on to school mine better.
 
Going back to the comments about Valegro - I think it's important to differentiate between incorrect training, and conformation. If you look carefully at pictures of him working, and then relaxed he has an exceptionally large crest - and even when relaxed with his neck stretched out, his crest is higher than his poll. You can see the natural line of his neck clearly in this picture, and once you see it, it's clear that he is working correctly more often than not. Even when his face is on, or in front of the vertical - which it actually is, in the majority of the photos that I have spent the last half hour poring over, his crest still makes it appear as if he is broken over. He cannot physically have his poll as the highest point - he just isn't built that way. If he were to be presented with his poll as the highest point, he would either have to contort his neck until it snapped, or his face would have to be practically horizontal. Perhaps the judges who mark him so highly are able to make this differentiation, where a less experienced person would see the huge crest and shout "Terrible training, terrible rider!". Perhaps the changes in how dressage horses work are down to the shift towards a more heavily muscled powerful type of warmblood for world class dressage, rather than bad training/riding. With the evolution of a heavier type of horse, with very different conformation to those ridden by the classical masters of yesteryear, I think it's important that judges and trainers evolve alongside, and take into consideration the physiology of the horses they are working with/judging.

12-31-d13087-charlotte-dujardin-gb-valegro-kwpn_large.jpg
 
Can I turn this around a bit and rather than discussing the proof, or not, that hyperflexion causes damage is there proof that classical training is good for them?
 
Tnavas said:
I sort of know where you are coming from - many years ago I was quite happy with the way my horses were going UNTIL I went to work for Jennie Lorriston-Clarke and I got to ride Grand Prix horses every day - WOW - my first Piaffe - WOW - when I left there and went back to riding my own horses and schooling others I realised that mine were like wooden planks.

Riding a well trained high level dressage horse is incredible! Spurred me on to school mine better.
Click to expand...

No I don't think from your reply you get where I am coming from .
I am very well trained and I am not going to name drop by whom but trainers who rode in teams and trained teams oversaw my development .
I cared for horses and rode horses who went on to be on teams .
And rode my first grandprix movements on horses who competed all over the world .
I am absolutely not a rider who has diddled around at home not doing much.
 
ester said:
Can I turn this around a bit and rather than discussing the proof, or not, that hyperflexion causes damage is there proof that classical training is good for them?
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Fair point ,is the high degree of collection needed for say levade good for a horse ?Its certainly not necessary .
 
Also re. the crests if we are seeing that more frequently these days, even in non stallions I guess the question is whether that always suggests the horse is a product of more modern methods? OP are there any classically trained warmbloods that could compare with. And is that perhaps different to say an iberian type that is constructed differently to the modern warmblood?
 
ester said:
Also re. the crests if we are seeing that more frequently these days, even in non stallions I guess the question is whether that always suggests the horse is a product of more modern methods? OP are there any classically trained warmbloods that could compare with. And is that perhaps different to say an iberian type that is constructed differently to the modern warmblood?
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I think there's defiantly a difference in how the modern types of horses heads are set on .
Modern warmbloods find it very easy to overbend verses say a old fashioned baroque type horse or say Fatty (an ID ) it would be unkind in the extreme to over bend him and very difficult to do.
 
ester said:
Also re. the crests if we are seeing that more frequently these days, even in non stallions I guess the question is whether that always suggests the horse is a product of more modern methods? OP are there any classically trained warmbloods that could compare with. And is that perhaps different to say an iberian type that is constructed differently to the modern warmblood?
Click to expand...

Uta Graf might be one to look at - she is considered to be a classical trainer/rider - and does lots of GP level work bitless/bridleless. To me, her horses are similar to Valegro, in that the poll is rarely the hghest point, because it's not physically possible, not because she is training them badly!
 
good luck lola, with thinking for yourself, we need more people promoting discussion, deep thoughts about training who don`t follow just success in the dressage arena

I believe collection can be shown by at moments by young horses, its natural as they achieve moments of balance, we have to listen more to the horse, to ride in a way that allows the horse to develop his whole body.

I too have seen so much damage done to horses, its heartbreaking, and totilas will be remembered not only for his high marks but he will maybe be a catalyst for change, who could not see his frustration with his riders, in front of the whole world too.
 
Auslander said:
Going back to the comments about Valegro - I think it's important to differentiate between incorrect training, and conformation. If you look carefully at pictures of him working, and then relaxed he has an exceptionally large crest - and even when relaxed with his neck stretched out, his crest is higher than his poll. You can see the natural line of his neck clearly in this picture, and once you see it, it's clear that he is working correctly more often than not. Even when his face is on, or in front of the vertical - which it actually is, in the majority of the photos that I have spent the last half hour poring over, his crest still makes it appear as if he is broken over. He cannot physically have his poll as the highest point - he just isn't built that way. If he were to be presented with his poll as the highest point, he would either have to contort his neck until it snapped, or his face would have to be practically horizontal. Perhaps the judges who mark him so highly are able to make this differentiation, where a less experienced person would see the huge crest and shout "Terrible training, terrible rider!". Perhaps the changes in how dressage horses work are down to the shift towards a more heavily muscled powerful type of warmblood for world class dressage, rather than bad training/riding. With the evolution of a heavier type of horse, with very different conformation to those ridden by the classical masters of yesteryear, I think it's important that judges and trainers evolve alongside, and take into consideration the physiology of the horses they are working with/judging.

12-31-d13087-charlotte-dujardin-gb-valegro-kwpn_large.jpg
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With Carl on he looks much, much better, and his neck didnt snap.

 
Auslander said:
Did you read anything I wrote, or did you just look at the picture?
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Yes Ive read it and I posted pictures where he looks much better, poll higher, and head slightly in front of vertical, so if it is impossible to be perfect, it is very possible to be much better.
 
Lola13 said:
Yes Ive read it and I posted pictures where he looks much better, poll higher, and head slightly in front of vertical, so if it is impossible to be perfect, it is very possible to be much better.
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But you didn't address my comments at all - you simply posted pictures of a much younger, less muscular horse. The poll isn't higher in those pics, the crest is less pronounced. The point I was making was that his build is what makes him look broken over, not his way of going - and this is the case with the majority of modern type dressage horses. It doesn't neccessarily mean that they are badly trained/ridden - just that the way their structure develops as they muscle up means that the position of their head is different from that of the finer built dressage horses that were around when the trainers that you prefer were riding. I think that it's not possible for every single modern rider to be wrong - so maybe we need to look more closely at how the horses they ride are bolted together.
 
Lola13 said:
Video that is interesting to see, horses head goes from and to the vertical and in front of the vertical, and at times behind the vertical.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWpFXtXsDkM

An article about the fashion of the horse head carriage in piaffe. (This is particularely interesting to me, because in clasical dressage, most of the piaffe was done a good amount in front of the vertical, after that people started riding it slight in front of vertical, then on the vertical, and they now ride behind the vertical. -this is not in article) In this or similar articles of the study only the scores of the dressage tests were mentioned, horses health or wellbeing not even one time.
http://lusitanoportal.com/articles/shorter-reins-higher-scores/

Interesting read about -Working the Horse Behind the Vertical
http://www.ridingart.com/balance.htm

Some pictures of horse in front of the vertical and the clasical piaffe
http://lizditz.typepad.com/i_speak_of_dreams/2005/05/well_ridden_dre.html

Modern piaffe
http://www.eurodressage.com/equestr...ata/images/12_hagen_dujardin_valegro_0355.jpg
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Hi Lola13, I read http://lusitanoportal.com/articles/shorter-reins-higher-scores/ and it reminded me of something I read the other day http://www.chronofhorse.com/article/kick-says-charlotte-dujardin... about shorter reins wins medals (I know she is talking about contact and the lusitano article was about excessive contact). They are not similar articles at all by the way, it's just the pervading message about rein length in competition.

I am far from putting CH & CD in the rk camp by the way!!! So how does that compare to the classical masters who ride with long reins... anyway, I think I know what GS is alluding to... why try and emulate something you know is wrong, just to win a medal? If you think modern dressage has diverted well away from where you think it should be, then don't subscribe. Or at least support those who try an uphold the original rules in the arena and the warm-up - CH et al. If that is what you want to do. It may mean not competing in BD/FEI but it's good that less and less people compete, they have to listen to their members... eventually.

I don't really want to carry on the hyperflexion debate, I don't think you need a study to prove it's damaging. It wouldn't get past the ethics committee nor is it necessary to prove it unless you had severe vision impairment.
 
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ester said:
Can I turn this around a bit and rather than discussing the proof, or not, that hyperflexion causes damage is there proof that classical training is good for them?
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I'm not sure how you compare hyperflexion to "classical" which is a collective term for correctly training a horse using it's physiology and psychology as a foundation of training... used by cavalries since Xenophons time in order to develop and preserve strength on allsorts of horses??

There was no iberian or warmblood argument then... allsorts of horses were trained for war over the centuries.

Lets not forget that dressage is just a word for training. The training was to prepare a horse to carry someone in to war without spooking and bolting off in the opposite direction. I'm not sure they cared where the head position was as long as it could see where it was going in the mud.
 
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Goldenstar said:
I think there's defiantly a difference in how the modern types of horses heads are set on .
Modern warmbloods find it very easy to overbend verses say a old fashioned baroque type horse or say Fatty (an ID ) it would be unkind in the extreme to over bend him and very difficult to do.
Click to expand...

ester said:
Also re. the crests if we are seeing that more frequently these days, even in non stallions I guess the question is whether that always suggests the horse is a product of more modern methods? OP are there any classically trained warmbloods that could compare with. And is that perhaps different to say an iberian type that is constructed differently to the modern warmblood?
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Le cadre noir uses warmbloods, but after I saw this picture I gave up on the picture hunt on their pages.

https://www.facebook.com/cadrenoirE...=568E18F4&size=2048,1365&fbid=890267994345848
 
rein length, how often do you see the horse in extended trot also lengthen his neck, or his whole frame? as a truly well balanced horse should, to be correct.

there are pics of oliviera where the whole frame is lengthened, Iberian horses are just as variable as any other breed in the head neck connection, its not just modern warmbloods.

I understand that on many `top` dressage yards lunging YOUNG horses in tight side reins is the norm, its not just rollkur making horses go overbent.
 
You don't have to look at top yards even... the amount of posts on HHO saying they use pessoa's on their 4yo is enough to know how deeply the message pervades with even vets recommending (personal experience)... thankfully you can take or leave their advice and change who you register with.
 
I don't think I will start on the subject of pessoas .I will get indigestion .
But I have enjoyed this thread I thank you Lola13.
 
Goldenstar said:
No I don't think from your reply you get where I am coming from .
I am very well trained and I am not going to name drop by whom but trainers who rode in teams and trained teams oversaw my development .
I cared for horses and rode horses who went on to be on teams .
And rode my first grandprix movements on horses who competed all over the world .
I am absolutely not a rider who has diddled around at home not doing much.
Click to expand...
I do know where you are coming from, just I expressed myself badly.
 
Auslander said:
Uta Graf might be one to look at - she is considered to be a classical trainer/rider - and does lots of GP level work bitless/bridleless. To me, her horses are similar to Valegro, in that the poll is rarely the hghest point, because it's not physically possible, not because she is training them badly!
Click to expand...

interesting to look at 6. and 8. picture: http://www.ashantifarm.com/carreras.html
 
Auslander said:
But you didn't address my comments at all - you simply posted pictures of a much younger, less muscular horse. The poll isn't higher in those pics, the crest is less pronounced. The point I was making was that his build is what makes him look broken over, not his way of going - and this is the case with the majority of modern type dressage horses. It doesn't neccessarily mean that they are badly trained/ridden - just that the way their structure develops as they muscle up means that the position of their head is different from that of the finer built dressage horses that were around when the trainers that you prefer were riding. I think that it's not possible for every single modern rider to be wrong - so maybe we need to look more closely at how the horses they ride are bolted together.
Click to expand...

Compare the lines.
 
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