Positive navicular stories please

[ponymum]

My horse has just been diagnosed with degeneration of the navicular bone after a short (1 month) history of lameness prompting nerve blocks, x-rays and MRI. It's primarily in one foot - right fore, with some early changes in the other front foot. He is a 13 year-old TB x warmblood gelding and was having his first season of BE, having completed two BE90s, two BE100s and the hope of moving up to novice by the end of the season. He has typical TB feet - flat, low heels and tendency to long toes, all prime risk factors for navicular. Fortunately, the MRI showed no tear of the DDFT, but there is some adhesion of the tendon to the navicular bone, causing some lack of uniform elasticity. The vets have recommended shoeing in bar shoes and putting him on Bute initially and continuing to work him. However, he had his shoes off for the MRI and it was a week before he was reshod with the bar shoes, in which time his feet basically disintegrated with very little left to nail to. The farrier did, however, manage to get the shoes on last Thursday and he has managed to keep them on. He is though, still lame, even on two Bute a day, which I realise isn't long, but how long before he can be expected to be sound? I'm not sure if it's soreness because of going without shoes, or the navicular itself making him lame.
What are people's experiences with navicular? I am getting the vet back but she won't be here until Wednesday so I'm just looking for some positive stories.
Having searched the Forum, I am aware of barefoot rehab and it's something I am considering, but, with his feet just crumbling in a week, I am concentrating on improving them with nutrition first before this is realistically possible.
TIA

 

[Marmaduke]

My TB was diagnosed with navicular age 14 on x ray (lots of holes!) but on mri this was said to be historic not current and problem was coffin joints. He was BE eventing but I decided to stop jumping him to save his joints. He has the flattest feet possible and windsucks so constant rocking does not help! I now have him in special shoes provided by a Lamborn farrier which are the front curved part metal and a plastic type pad underneath the whole lot which extends out under the frog. These have helped my horse a lot who is sound and competing dressage, so look at all shoeing options not just heart bars which may work short term but in the long run will crush the heels. Initially I also put him on a galium nitrate supplement imported from US which may have helped.(Google navicular and galium nitrate). I also have him on Formula 4 feet supplement and I never have any problems with crumbling hooves. My horse is out in all sorts of mud etc but his hooves are good and strong. Whether it is just the biotin or all the other stuff who knows! Just keep on top of the foot balance. If everything is inflamed it will take a bit of time to settle and with flat feet and no shoes the feet will be adjusting. I think my horse was off for 2 months and then shod and then I started working him again. Hope this helps.

 

[ycbm]

Rockleyfarm.blogspot.com

I hope that your vets have told you that the condition of the navicular bone itself is very rarely the cause of the lameness?

 

[ponymum]

Many thanks. That's interesting Marmaduke. Maybe I'm being impatient. I suppose I was a little optimistic as he suddenly went lame and the vet said that the kind of damage he has hadn't happened quickly, but over the course of several months so the condition of the bone wasn't necessarily the cause of his pain. Surprisingly, there was very little inflammation apparent on the MRI and I was hopeful that he would at least be sound on the Bute but sadly not.
ycbm, yes, I have seen the Rockley Farm blog , thank you, and I am considering it, as I said in my original post.
My other dilemma is about his diet. He is currently fed Alfa-A Oil, Speedibeet and Spillers balancer. I have recently added NAF Pro Feet as I was given some. I know alfalfa is a little controversial but I need something that will keep weight on and not fizz him up. I had a pony on Formula 4 Feet and it hyped him up a bit so I'm a bit reluctant to try that. I understand the Equimins and Pro Hoof are good. Which do people recommend as I would like to sort out the nutrition now to give him a fighting chance if I go down the barefoot route?

 

[Puddleduck]

My warmblood dressage horse was diagnosed by X-ray mid September last year with navicular deterioration in his right fore. MRI on 20th October showed navicular bursitis, a tear in the DDFT with granulated tissue adhesion and collateral ligament damage.
We were sent home with a very poor prognosis and told box rest and time would show if I had a hope of riding him again or a chronically lame horse. He had a bar shoe put on and we started the box rest however I wasn't convinced it was the right thing for him. He was landing laterally on that foot even in walk and the foot flared as it tried to balance itself.
I researched Rockley Farm after talking to a friend who had experience of barefoot. At the end of November we had a review with our vet who asked me what my thoughts were on how we should proceed (he knew I would have done some research but not that it would be on barefoot). I said straight away I thought barefoot could be worth a shot and I'd like us to look at sending him to Rockley. My vet was happy to support this so I contacted Nic Barker to see if she would take him. She had a 10 week waiting list so I thought I would get the shoes off and make a start myself.
Shoes came off on 30th November and he was like a different horse. All his silly sharpness went and he stopped over reacting to noises and rearing. We started walking in hand, just 5 minutes daily to start adding 5 minutes every week. His frame changed, instead of holding himself tight through his shoulders he walked out with his back swinging. By Feb this year we were doing an hour a day walking and at the start of March went back to our vet and were given the go ahead to start ridden walk,plus restricted turnout.
He's now out in a small paddock all afternoon and hacked out most evenings. Yesterday we did a 5 mile hack with a couple of long trots and he felt fantastic, we have also ventured back into the school to do some pole work. We do use boots in front for most hacks but he goes in them happily and I actually feel much more secure on the roads compared to shoes.
I am hoping we can go back to our vet in a couple of weeks and get the go ahead to do more in the school and maybe introduce some short canters on the straight.
I have no doubt that barefoot has been the right route for my boy although it has been hard work and not everyone around me has been supportive of my choice.

 

[ILuvCowparsely]

My horse has just been diagnosed with degeneration of the navicular bone after a short (1 month) history of lameness prompting nerve blocks, x-rays and MRI. It's primarily in one foot - right fore, with some early changes in the other front foot. He is a 13 year-old TB x warmblood gelding and was having his first season of BE, having completed two BE90s, two BE100s and the hope of moving up to novice by the end of the season. He has typical TB feet - flat, low heels and tendency to long toes, all prime risk factors for navicular. Fortunately, the MRI showed no tear of the DDFT, but there is some adhesion of the tendon to the navicular bone, causing some lack of uniform elasticity. The vets have recommended shoeing in bar shoes and putting him on Bute initially and continuing to work him. However, he had his shoes off for the MRI and it was a week before he was reshod with the bar shoes, in which time his feet basically disintegrated with very little left to nail to. The farrier did, however, manage to get the shoes on last Thursday and he has managed to keep them on. He is though, still lame, even on two Bute a day, which I realise isn't long, but how long before he can be expected to be sound? I'm not sure if it's soreness because of going without shoes, or the navicular itself making him lame.
What are people's experiences with navicular? I am getting the vet back but she won't be here until Wednesday so I'm just looking for some positive stories.
Having searched the Forum, I am aware of barefoot rehab and it's something I am considering, but, with his feet just crumbling in a week, I am concentrating on improving them with nutrition first before this is realistically possible.
TIA

my friends horse had navicular . He lived till his 30's and just had natural balance shoes but don't know what treatment if any she gave him.

 

[ponymum]

Thanks for this, that sounds encouraging. I'm a little reluctant to take his shoes off straight away, after his feet breaking up so quickly, but the weather had been really dry and the ground was hard. He is turned out 24 hours as the vets didn't think box rest was right for him. I'm hoping that if I leave it till later in the year to take his shoes off, his feet may be stronger and the ground a little softer.
Did you ever get to Rockley or have you managed to do it yourself? Have you modified his diet at all and how good were his feet to start? Sorry for all the questions, just trying to get as much info as I can.

My warmblood dressage horse was diagnosed by X-ray mid September last year with navicular deterioration in his right fore. MRI on 20th October showed navicular bursitis, a tear in the DDFT with granulated tissue adhesion and collateral ligament damage.
We were sent home with a very poor prognosis and told box rest and time would show if I had a hope of riding him again or a chronically lame horse. He had a bar shoe put on and we started the box rest however I wasn't convinced it was the right thing for him. He was landing laterally on that foot even in walk and the foot flared as it tried to balance itself.
I researched Rockley Farm after talking to a friend who had experience of barefoot. At the end of November we had a review with our vet who asked me what my thoughts were on how we should proceed (he knew I would have done some research but not that it would be on barefoot). I said straight away I thought barefoot could be worth a shot and I'd like us to look at sending him to Rockley. My vet was happy to support this so I contacted Nic Barker to see if she would take him. She had a 10 week waiting list so I thought I would get the shoes off and make a start myself.
Shoes came off on 30th November and he was like a different horse. All his silly sharpness went and he stopped over reacting to noises and rearing. We started walking in hand, just 5 minutes daily to start adding 5 minutes every week. His frame changed, instead of holding himself tight through his shoulders he walked out with his back swinging. By Feb this year we were doing an hour a day walking and at the start of March went back to our vet and were given the go ahead to start ridden walk,plus restricted turnout.
He's now out in a small paddock all afternoon and hacked out most evenings. Yesterday we did a 5 mile hack with a couple of long trots and he felt fantastic, we have also ventured back into the school to do some pole work. We do use boots in front for most hacks but he goes in them happily and I actually feel much more secure on the roads compared to shoes.
I am hoping we can go back to our vet in a couple of weeks and get the go ahead to do more in the school and maybe introduce some short canters on the straight.
I have no doubt that barefoot has been the right route for my boy although it has been hard work and not everyone around me has been supportive of my choice.

 

[ihatework]

I would encourage you to look at something like this as an interim measure, whilst also improving hoof quality

http://www.equinefootclinic.co.uk/EFC_Pad.html

 

[PoppyAnderson]

You need to very quickly start reading up on this subject and take your horse barefoot. It is the ONLY chance you have of keeping this horse sound and alive quite frankly. Remedial shoeing is the quickest route to pts. Your whole regime needs an overhaul. Vets are light years behind in their thinking I'm afraid and you need to fly in the face of everything they and farriers will tell you. In a nutshell, you need to:

*get a recommended barefoot trimmer on board (not a farrier)
*totally change the diet (alfalfa is awful stuff, spillers and most commercial feeds is full of sh 1 t)
*buy hoof boots

ooooooor, just send to Rockley and let them start you off!

 

[PoppyAnderson]

Diet: you need to drop the sugar levels as low as possible (<10%), not feed alfalfa and buy high quality feed with no fillers (which leaves very little choice basically). A chaff (non molassed, no rape seed oil, so really only Thunderbrooks and Agrobs), micronised linseed, a beet that's not sugared (quick beet, speedibeet) and a good quality supplement (forage first, pro earth or equimins hoof mender).

 

[Casey76]

Jeez - talk about being fatalistic Poppy. No need to scare the OP!

OP, if your horses feet are crumbling away, it's definitely worth getting some hoof boots for the interim period. They will make your horse comfortable, and attain the most important thing, a heel first landing.

For beginners, cavallo simples are a good bet. They are easy to get on and off, there are no complicated strapping systems, and the sizing is fairly forgiving. Get a size larger than you think you need, and you can put some EVA pads in them, which will a) increase the horses comfort if he has thin soles and b) take up a little more space to stop the foot from sliding around too much. I use these: https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00E96UHC2/ref=s9u_simh_gw_i1?ie=UTF8&fpl=fresh&pd_rd_i=B00E96UH8Q&pd_rd_r=QRSTMC2KFB3TTX5QNXQ1&pd_rd_w=VZx3h&pd_rd_wg=jkW6a&pf_rd_m=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&pf_rd_s=&pf_rd_r=Z9FPV1T43WJGEPYJD1TP&pf_rd_t=36701&pf_rd_p=e586113b-1187-49e7-b25c-760581bc9374&pf_rd_i=desktop&th=1 EVA mats. I can usually get at least 6 pads out of each mat, with plenty left over for extra frog supports if needed.

You may be amazed at how much more comfortable your horse is in boots with appropriate support. There are a good many communities on FB selling second hand boots, because feet size and shape change often. You should be able to get a good pair of second had boots for less than a set of shoes (and they should last a few months), so while the initial outlay may be a little daunting, they are a good long term investment!

I would agree that in the medium-long term, shoeing is not the best way to treat navicular syndrome (aka caudal foot pain) - the damage to the navicular bone that is seen on the MRI is very rarely the cause of the pain, but an under developed digital cushion and bruising to the internal structures is. This is very treatable! Don't despair!

You do not *need* a barefoot trimmer, though a professional trimmer may be more ameanable to using boots and pads than a traditional farrier - but don't knock all farriers, some are also very on the ball with non-shoeing methods too. The important thing is to get the back of the foot working comfortably, with decontraction of the heels and building up the digital cushion. It takes time, and using boots makes it much easier to tailor the padding/no padding etc as needed, taking the toes back, adjusting the heel height/balance, rather than lopping off a whole lot of hoof once every 6 weeks. Also I don't believe you can achieve the correct stimulation needed while in shoes (even with bar/wedge shoes and padding).

The crumbling feet are something you are going to have to put up with I'm afraid. There isn't anything you can put on them which will immediately improve them, you need to grow a good hoof by improving nutrition. As for any horse (not just ones without shoes!) a low sugar and starch diet is best, with balanced minerals. If you ned extra energy or conditioning, use micronized linseed. Minerals without added iron are the best. There are several sources now, including Forage Plus and Pro Earth (which are powder) and Equimins (I think!!!) pelleted - this contains a certain amount of binder, but for the amount you are feeding it is negligible.

Don't let yourself be bullied into one decision or another; take some time to a) breathe! and b) do a little research. It isn't all doom and gloom, but there is no instant fix either.

Good luck!

 

[ycbm]

Diet: you need to drop the sugar levels as low as possible (<10%), not feed alfalfa and buy high quality feed with no fillers (which leaves very little choice basically). A chaff (non molassed, no rape seed oil, so really only Thunderbrooks and Agrobs), micronised linseed, a beet that's not sugared (quick beet, speedibeet) and a good quality supplement (forage first, pro earth or equimins hoof mender).

Rockley Farm feed alfalfa pellets. I've never had any problem with a barefoot feeding rapeseed oil. My friend and I have never fed linseed (it's damned expensive!) and we have rock crunchers.

Whatever supplement you choose, it needs to have NO iron and NO manganese, which I think limits you to the three mentioned, though its Forage Plus, not Forage First PA , and personally I prefer to feed yeast as well, as does Rockley, so if you choose one without yeast in it you would need to add that.

 

[FfionWinnie]

You need to very quickly start reading up on this subject and take your horse barefoot. It is the ONLY chance you have of keeping this horse sound and alive quite frankly. Remedial shoeing is the quickest route to pts. Your whole regime needs an overhaul. Vets are light years behind in their thinking I'm afraid and you need to fly in the face of everything they and farriers will tell you. In a nutshell, you need to:

*get a recommended barefoot trimmer on board (not a farrier)
*totally change the diet (alfalfa is awful stuff, spillers and most commercial feeds is full of sh 1 t)
*buy hoof boots

ooooooor, just send to Rockley and let them start you off!

Is that true? Nearly every horse that goes to Rockley have remedial shoes some of them utterly horrific (in my eyes!) but they usually report that in the short term the horse was sound and the feet improve quickly on the Rockley regime.

So is it the case that you could use remedial shoes in the short term to improve the horn without causing the horse to drop dead...

You wouldn't find anyone more pro barefoot than I - I have many others in full work without shoes, but having recently tried to take my WB BF, I've realised it isn't always simple and you need to think outside the box in some cases. My aim is to get him BF at some point, but it's not going to be this year.

 

[PoppyAnderson]

You do not *need* a barefoot trimmer, though a professional trimmer may be more ameanable to using boots and pads than a traditional farrier - but don't knock all farriers, some are also very on the ball with non-shoeing methods too.
!

The vast majority of farriers will rasp hoof walls and trim frogs and want to make feet look aesthetically pleasing. Yes you can ask/tell them not to but the OP won't yet know how to guide a farrier and so the best thing to do in these circs is just get a barefoot trimmer.

 

[PoppyAnderson]

Rockley Farm feed alfalfa pellets. I've never had any problem with a barefoot feeding rapeseed oil. My friend and I have never fed linseed (it's damned expensive!) and we have rock crunchers.

Whatever supplement you choose, it needs to have NO iron and NO manganese, which I think limits you to the three mentioned, though its Forage Plus, not Forage First PA , and personally I prefer to feed yeast as well, as does Rockley, so if you choose one without yeast in it you would need to add that.

Many horses are sensative to alfalfa, so it's easier to advise to just miss it out altogether at first. Micronised linseed is one of the most cost effective feeds out there. You only feed small amounts so it lasts forever. I always get first and plus the wrong way round!

 

[tallyho!]

Barefoot is the only solution that seems to work for navicular.

 

[PoppyAnderson]

Is that true? .

Is what true?

 

[tallyho!]

Barefoot is the only solution that seems to work for navicular.

Or a least time on NO shoes whatsoever.

(Being that shoes are the cause of navicular 99% of the time)

 

[PoppyAnderson]

Or a least time on NO shoes whatsoever.

(Being that shoes are the cause of navicular 99% of the time)

But then why would you ever go back?

 

[Sam_J]

*get a recommended barefoot trimmer on board (not a farrier)


ooooooor, just send to Rockley and let them start you off!

Depends on the farrier.

 

[tallyho!]

But then why would you ever go back?

Exactly...

 

[FfionWinnie]

Is what true?

Presumably you don't know since you've cut off the rest of my post which explains what I was asking you to clarify!

 

[PoppyAnderson]

Presumably you don't know since you've cut off the rest of my post which explains what I was asking you to clarify!

What a ridiculous thing to say. Of course I know about what I said. I'm just asking you to clarify your question as it wasn't clear and the rest of your post didn't make it obvious either.

 

[PoppyAnderson]

So is it the case that you could use remedial shoes in the short term to improve the horn without causing the horse to drop dead.

Obviously the horse isn't going to drop dead but then that isn't what I said. I said it's the quickest route to being pts. Which is absolutely true because the lameness and problems will escalate with remedial shoeing and you will end up with a crippled horse ultimately.

 

[FfionWinnie]

You need to very quickly start reading up on this subject and take your horse barefoot. *****It is the ONLY chance you have of keeping this horse sound and alive quite frankly. Remedial shoeing is the quickest route to pts.*****

No more ridiculous than these frightening statements you chose to make and have still not actually shown any proof for!

Many many horses have remedial shoes. Many many horses do not die because of them. While I am 100% pro barefoot my recent experiences have shown me it's not as clear cut as your post makes out.

 

[ponymum]

Many thanks for all your replies. I didn't mean to start a war!!! I think I'll back out quietly now. There is no need to convince me of the benefits of going barefoot, I'm well aware of the positive outcomes and it is what I want to do, just not quite at this moment in time. Hopefully he won't keel over just yet while I try and improve the horn quality and get hold of some hoof boots for his tender days to come.
Thanks all

 

[PoppyAnderson]

No more ridiculous than these frightening statements you chose to make and have still not actually shown any proof for!

Many many horses have remedial shoes. Many many horses do not die because of them. While I am 100% pro barefoot my recent experiences have shown me it's not as clear cut as your post makes out.

They're not ridiculous and I don't have to prove anything - I'm not in a court room on the stand. Go and educate yourself about it. Remedial shoeing never works in terms of bringing a horse back to useful soundness. So ok, they don't die (obviously) but it is not the road to soundness and therefore they will eventually end up as a field ornament or pts.

 

[Theocat]

Remedial shoeing never works in terms of bringing a horse back to useful soundness.

I'd like to see your sources for that, please. I am researching this at the moment.

I suspect it would be useful evidence for anyone arguing with a vet about taking shoes off.

 

[alibali]

Many thanks for all your replies. I didn't mean to start a war!!! I think I'll back out quietly now. There is no need to convince me of the benefits of going barefoot, I'm well aware of the positive outcomes and it is what I want to do, just not quite at this moment in time. Hopefully he won't keel over just yet while I try and improve the horn quality and get hold of some hoof boots for his tender days to come.
Thanks all

Sounds like a very sensible course of action, address diet and ensure you have the means to make them comfortable in the short term and take shoes off once the grounds more forgiving

 

[PoppyAnderson]

I'd like to see your sources for that, please. I am researching this at the moment.

I suspect it would be useful evidence for anyone arguing with a vet about taking shoes off.

Pointless debating this with 90% of vets and farriers, as they have a financial interest in recommending the remedial shoeing route.