Positive navicular stories please

[PoppyAnderson]

I'd like to see your sources for that, please. I am researching this at the moment.

I suspect it would be useful evidence for anyone arguing with a vet about taking shoes off.

Have you read all the rockley case studies? Case after case of horses on the verge of being pts after trying everything. Have you read all the accounts on this forum of the same thing? Have you had horses yourself or looked after them or seen friends horses that have been pts after remedial shoeing? Have you seen any horse ever return to full soundness in the long term after remedial shoeing?

 

[FfionWinnie]

They're not ridiculous and I don't have to prove anything - I'm not in a court room on the stand. Go and educate yourself about it. Remedial shoeing never works in terms of bringing a horse back to useful soundness. So ok, they don't die (obviously) but it is not the road to soundness and therefore they will eventually end up as a field ornament or pts.

If you want to be taken seriously you have to back up statements of fact. What you meant was "I think" or "in my opinion".

Op you absolutely haven't started a war you've asked some extremely important questions which I have also been wondering about myself and am still wondering

 

[ester]

I'm going to ignore the rest

ponymum I've become a bit geeky about this but try to stay pragmatic. As a scientist I would love for there to be a good quantity of peer reviewed research into the subject, but unfortunately there just isn't so we can't!

My personal view is that for most horses taking shoes off probably represents their best option for long term soundness, other options may well better if only looking at immediate future. However not all horses come sound from doing it, most undoubtably improve and I suspect longer term they would be worse in shoes but it isn't totally magic. Not all horses will be rock crunching either, or self trimming - my own who had a different diagnosis- is neither of these things but has still managed to hunt bootless etc.

Now we have a plethora of boot and pad options that there should be something to suit, even if required for turnout too in the first instance. This means that it should be possible to keep the horse relativley comfortable through the transition (with the use of bute if required too).

Fwiw I do also quite like the idea of the shoes that IHW posted, as a bit of a happy medium to improve the heels in a shoe if booting options really can't work.

If you do decide to carry on diet, movement (suitable for level), trim and a whole big heap of patience.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Pointless debating this with 90% of vets and farriers, as they have a financial interest in recommending the remedial shoeing route.

Eep. I've heard of the term 'barefoot taliban' on HHO, but hadn't really come across one in action before on here.

TP, who keeps her horses unshod when I think it to be best, and who trusts her vets and farrier, who think the same as I do. Gullible naïve woman that I am .

 

[ester]

It's been a while since the term got used or was appropriate too which is a good thing.

I have a farrier atm, I gave him a list in case he's fairly obedient.
vet has sent a fair few to rockley but wasn't sure with our dx if it would work, but was happy we gave it a go- it does mean I point out his feet for all other visits just to remind him . It very much does depend on your vet, I couldn't have one I couldn't have a proper discussion about all options pros/cons with though.

 

[PoppyAnderson]

I'm happy to be labelled barefoot taliban! I'm fighting the cause!! I admit I'm grumpy (I know I hide it well...) but it's just so tedious that people don't do their own research first, as there's a plethora of information on the subject, much of which has its foundation in facts, science, research etc.

 

[FfionWinnie]

Oh awa n boil yer heid! I've got 8 horses in full work without shoes - I know plenty about BF but the OP isn't asking about BF!!!

I know and I'm sure she knows Rockley is the best. It's. Not. Always. That. Simple.

 

[ponymum]

I know and I'm sure she knows Rockley is the best. It's. Not. Always. That. Simple.

Ok, I know I said I was backing away but I felt I needed to say something.
FW, you are very right, I know about the benefits of Barefoot and I've emailed Nic at Rockley as I believe it represents his best chance. I am just waiting for a reply. However, it will be a while before he can go, if it is right for him, so in the meantime I want to get his diet right and other management options to ensure the best outcome.
He is on Alfa-A Oil because it suits him. I know some horses are sensitive to alfalfa but he isn't. He's never been footy and he has never had laminitis. He is a perfect weight, according to the feed consultants that bring weigh bridges to the yard and his coat is always shiny. He has ad lib hay in winter and is out 24 hours in summer with hay in the field when grass is low. He is on Speedibeet to keep up the low sugar regimen. I now know Spillers isn't the best option, hence I was asking about other vitamin/mineral supplements. If there is a better feed for him, then I'm open to suggestions, but I don't want to change for the sake of it as he can be a fussy so and so.
What I was after was some helpful advice about horses that have come back from navicular to maybe competing, ideally eventing, and how you managed it. Even better if they are barefoot!
I know this won't be an easy journey and that I will have to battle for him with the vets - I'm used to that, I fought for him to have hydrotherapy for a leg wound. Some concrete evidence would be helpful as I'm used to discussing clinical papers with doctors so proper trials are ideal but it looks like the best we have is anecdotal evidence, all be it that there is a good amount of it. I get on well with my farrier and I'm guessing his response will be that he doesn't think my boy can go Barefoot but I can cross that bridge when I come to it.
To the Barefoot Taliban - you are preaching to the converted but as FW says - Its not that simple!
Thank you

 

[ester]

so supplement wise, something without iron, in no particular order:
prohoof (pro_earth on ebay)
forageplus
equimins adv. complete - I use this, it is a bit low in magnesium for us (high calcium forage) so I add a bit more of that.
equivita
and at least one other I can't currently remember.


Micronised linseed is always good stuff. I can feed a mug (technical ) a day to a welsh cob without it adding weight (he gets more in winter/full work).

Sadly no, there are no proper trials, certainly not with good numbers, and funding is pretty unlikely to happen. A fair few people do seem to get their horses better in bar shoes/wedges/injecting etc but the improvement they see seems to be a bit time limited (but they also sort of expect that to happen and feel any extra time is more than they could have had).

There are advantages and disadvantages to going to rockley, I think I would err on suggesting people try it at home first, if they have the ability to do small amounts of walking each day and appropriate turn out etc. Rockley does give them a head start, and you don't have to worry about uncomfortable surfaces but plenty seem to experience a blip when they go home and have to deal with a slightly different dietary/movement regime etc. So if you can get it right with home first I think you can avoid that, even if the initial improvement might be a bit slower. Nic was great when I emailed her, I (and others) do think that you tend to hear more about the success stories on long term updates down the line than the ones that are still tricky and better but not amazing. - But that is where my comment comes from that I think it is still probably the best chance for most, even if not 100% successful and at the very least worth a try. (we did 2 cycles in bar shoes, that was the chance I was going to give them, then they came off )

 

[ponymum]

Just for those who are interested in what a poor navicular bone looks like:

 

[ponymum]

Ester, Thanks - that's just the kind of thing I was after!

 

[ester]

No probs, I'd missed that bit, wood for trees by that point .

There are a fair few post rockely horses on here if you fancy a search, I also know for instance that polarskye's boy did quite well with the shoeing way for a period of time. For me if a horse had a lot of other stuff going on that meant life was going to be short regardless I wouldn't be anti shoe.

For my own he was 19, I decided if he was retiring he wasn't keeping shoes on so we might as well give it a proper go to see what happened . He hunted till he 23 and semi retired to hacking a year ago for completely unrelated issues (spavin/annulars/liver has gone funky) - the front end is still sound as. I am very glad we got those extra 4 years of jolliness!

 

[be positive]

Ok, I know I said I was backing away but I felt I needed to say something.
FW, you are very right, I know about the benefits of Barefoot and I've emailed Nic at Rockley as I believe it represents his best chance. I am just waiting for a reply. However, it will be a while before he can go, if it is right for him, so in the meantime I want to get his diet right and other management options to ensure the best outcome.
He is on Alfa-A Oil because it suits him. I know some horses are sensitive to alfalfa but he isn't. He's never been footy and he has never had laminitis. He is a perfect weight, according to the feed consultants that bring weigh bridges to the yard and his coat is always shiny. He has ad lib hay in winter and is out 24 hours in summer with hay in the field when grass is low. He is on Speedibeet to keep up the low sugar regimen. I now know Spillers isn't the best option, hence I was asking about other vitamin/mineral supplements. If there is a better feed for him, then I'm open to suggestions, but I don't want to change for the sake of it as he can be a fussy so and so.
What I was after was some helpful advice about horses that have come back from navicular to maybe competing, ideally eventing, and how you managed it. Even better if they are barefoot!
I know this won't be an easy journey and that I will have to battle for him with the vets - I'm used to that, I fought for him to have hydrotherapy for a leg wound. Some concrete evidence would be helpful as I'm used to discussing clinical papers with doctors so proper trials are ideal but it looks like the best we have is anecdotal evidence, all be it that there is a good amount of it. I get on well with my farrier and I'm guessing his response will be that he doesn't think my boy can go Barefoot but I can cross that bridge when I come to it.
To the Barefoot Taliban - you are preaching to the converted but as FW says - Its not that simple!
Thank you

It sounds as if you have most of it covered but one thing from your first post stood out, that he has typical tb feet, this is a misconception tb's do not have to have poor feet, they can have good strong feet so there is a reason why his are not good and they are probably in part why he has gone lame.
Not being critical of your farrier or management but wanted to put in a few thoughts from my experience of having a few barefoot horses in full work, you may need to tweak his diet just because he has not been obviously footy does not mean he is not sensitive, his feet did not cope without shoes so they are not strong which means something needs addressing before he will cope.
Not a navicular horse but a tb that came here with a tendon injury, his feet were the worst feet I have ever seen, low heels, long toes, his frogs were crumbled to nothing, soft pliable soles, he was on box rest with daily walking so for 6 weeks I scrubbed his feet with salt water and walked him over the yard trying to ignore his flinching when he trod on a stone, he was eventually turned out by which time he had some frogs, a little heel and his soles had toughened up, he had 6 months of "neglect" in the field, he was out 24/7 for the winter with just regular trims but no more, he came back to full work doing all his roadwork barefoot, was shod to return to racing then they came off when he retired to become a low level competition horse, his feet were totally different after the first 8 weeks of roadwork, they never went back to being the typical tb feet he arrived with and the tendon held up well to all he did, my farrier described his feet as "perfect" and he is not one to give praise lightly.

I think most horses can go barefoot but you do need the farrier on board, I am more than happy to shoe when required, I keep my grass so it provides something for them to eat but it is never fertilised and they are restricted to an extent, mine are mainly good doers, even the tb looked rather porky most of the time, feeding is basic, a token amount of grassnuts is all most of them ever get along with adlib hay or haylage in the winter.
Going to Rockley will give him a good start but get going now to tweak the diet while he has the shoes on so he has a head start when he arrives.

 

[Theocat]

I'm happy to be labelled barefoot taliban! I'm fighting the cause!! I admit I'm grumpy (I know I hide it well...) but it's just so tedious that people don't do their own research first, as there's a plethora of information on the subject, much of which has its foundation in facts, science, research etc.

It"s BECAUSE I've been doing research and am taking an interest that I'm interested in seeing more evidence - especially studies or hard fact, rather than just lots and lots of anecdote. Of course individual stories are useful, and add up to compelling cases, but what they don't do is provide actual evidence that shoes *never* work. Even the Rockley site says that if shoes are working, there's no point in changing.

I suspect you're in a barefoot echo chamber, which makes you sound blinkered, and weakens your position. You don't need to convince me of the benefits of barefoot, by the way, but for those who do need convincing, your attitude is harming your cause - not helping it.

 

[Pinkvboots]

I don't want to hijack your thread op but I to have a horse his 12 that has very slight changes in the navicular bone his lame on his off side front which has the most changes, he had osphos treatment in both fronts and had steroid put into the navicular bursa a few months ago, although he is not as lame his still 1 tenth lame worse on a circle, they have recommended I have an mri of both feet which will be done over the next few weeks.

I decided to take his shoes off about a month ago and his been okay they did break up initially but what concerned me the most was how different his feet looked, they have never been a total pair but the lame foot started to look more upright and boxy compared to the other and although it was always not the same as the other one it got significantly worse.

I know the mri could throw something else up but do you think I am doing the right thing leaving the shoes off now without knowing if anything else is going on? I was planning on trying to keep him barefoot if or when he returns to work.

 

[PolarSkye]

Have you seen any horse ever return to full soundness in the long term after remedial shoeing?

Mine did.

P

 

[ycbm]

I don't want to hijack your thread op but I to have a horse his 12 that has very slight changes in the navicular bone his lame on his off side front which has the most changes, he had osphos treatment in both fronts and had steroid put into the navicular bursa a few months ago, although he is not as lame his still 1 tenth lame worse on a circle, they have recommended I have an mri of both feet which will be done over the next few weeks.

I decided to take his shoes off about a month ago and his been okay they did break up initially but what concerned me the most was how different his feet looked, they have never been a total pair but the lame foot started to look more upright and boxy compared to the other and although it was always not the same as the other one it got significantly worse.

I know the mri could throw something else up but do you think I am doing the right thing leaving the shoes off now without knowing if anything else is going on? I was planning on trying to keep him barefoot if or when he returns to work.

Your farrier has been shoeing your horse, who wants feet of two different shapes, to look as symmetrical as he can.

This quest for symmetry by farriers is often a cause of horses going lame. Evidenced by the fact that when they are allowed to grow the for they want, they very often come sound.

Your horse is probably growing a different shaped foot to suit the leg above it. The key question is not what his feet look like, but whether he becomes more sound.

 

[ester]

Mine did.

P

I did mention him

There are also a fair few reports of others doing so if carefully managed, what does muddy the water though is the woolinesss of navicular as a diagnosis which makes it difficult as all of these horses probably cover a range of pathologies which probably effect outcome.

 

[PoppyAnderson]

It"s BECAUSE I've been doing research and am taking an interest that I'm interested in seeing more evidence - especially studies or hard fact, rather than just lots and lots of anecdote. Of course individual stories are useful, and add up to compelling cases, but what they don't do is provide actual evidence that shoes *never* work. Even the Rockley site says that if shoes are working, there's no point in changing.

I suspect you're in a barefoot echo chamber, which makes you sound blinkered, and weakens your position. You don't need to convince me of the benefits of barefoot, by the way, but for those who do need convincing, your attitude is harming your cause - not helping it.

I get that entirely. I get that my militant stance can alienate. It's just so trying that people don't do their own research first. The internet is a wonderful thing and provides all that info that anyone could ever need on the subject.

 

[PoppyAnderson]

Your farrier has been shoeing your horse, who wants feet of two different shapes, to look as symmetrical as he can.

This quest for symmetry by farriers is often a cause of horses going lame. Evidenced by the fact that when they are allowed to grow the for they want, they very often come sound.

Your horse is probably growing a different shaped foot to suit the leg above it. The key question is not what his feet look like, but whether he becomes more sound.

Absolutely. People strive for perfect looking feet but a horse will grow the feet they need (given the right environment) and you have to observe this and work with it, not against it.

 

[PoppyAnderson]

Equimins hoof mender has the highest spec and is the best hoof supplement on the market.

 

[ycbm]

Equimins hoof mender has the highest spec and is the best hoof supplement on the market.

There is no such thing as 'the highest spec'. The best spec is the one which most accurately compensates for what is missing or excessive in your horses grazing and forage.

 

[fairhill]

OP, my aunt's horse had ddft damage last year and she has got him sound via remedial shoeing and restricted turnout.

My mare has ddft damage in both front legs and I am going down the unshod, turned out, gentle exercise route. I use a farrier for trims, and at the moment she is having no supplements or feed. And is on grass 24/7! Too early to say she is sound but she is definitely starting to improve.

There are pros, cons and unknowns whatever you decide, so think about what will work for you, and your horse. And you can always change your mind

 

[Pinkvboots]

Your farrier has been shoeing your horse, who wants feet of two different shapes, to look as symmetrical as he can.

This quest for symmetry by farriers is often a cause of horses going lame. Evidenced by the fact that when they are allowed to grow the for they want, they very often come sound.

Your horse is probably growing a different shaped foot to suit the leg above it. The key question is not what his feet look like, but whether he becomes more sound.

thank you but to be fair to my farrier he said to me a long while back that that foot seemed to be getting more upright and he is very good in the sense that he shoes each foot as an individual he knows not to try and make them match, my vet did say the horse may have been feeling slight discomfort before he became lame and often they start to not load that foot equally so that can cause the foot to change in shape.

 

[Tiddlypom]

I get that entirely. I get that my militant stance can alienate. It's just so trying that people don't do their own research first. The internet is a wonderful thing and provides all that info that anyone could ever need on the subject.

Perhaps you could point folk towards all this readily available info? It's easier for many of us if someone has sifted through all the dross first .

 

[ycbm]

thank you but to be fair to my farrier he said to me a long while back that that foot seemed to be getting more upright and he is very good in the sense that he shoes each foot as an individual he knows not to try and make them match, my vet did say the horse may have been feeling slight discomfort before he became lame and often they start to not load that foot equally so that can cause the foot to change in shape.

It's usually the case,ime, that vets and farriers think exactly as yours do, but go no further. What they then often want to do is 'help' the house stay sound by putting the foot back where they think it should be. They don't recognise that the change in the foot is to provide the optimum foot for the horse at that time. Worse, they often don't realise that the foot will go back to a 'better' shape when the problem that caused it to go odd is resolved, and that trying to do that too quickly can delay resolution of the issue.

I'm not saying that your own vet or farrier are doing this, just that you need to be aware that they might, especially if you want your horse to recover with a barefoot rehab.

 

[PoppyAnderson]

There is no such thing as 'the highest spec'. The best spec is the one which most accurately compensates for what is missing or excessive in your horses grazing and forage.

True but joe public typically doesn't have grass and hay analysis carried out and supplement accordingly, so the best off-the-shelf is equimins hoof mender.

 

[ycbm]

True but joe public typically doesn't have grass and hay analysis carried out and supplement accordingly, so the best off-the-shelf is equimins hoof mender.

I do not understand how you can say that when so many people are reporting great results with either forage plus or progressive earth.

In what way do you consider it 'best'?

 

[Leo Walker]

Equimins doesnt have any vitamin E and has unspecified "herbal products" according to this link, so its not what I would class as best, although it is a reasonable option.

https://www.******.co.uk/Equimins_H...MI9f7l35Gq1QIVgrXtCh0mNQ40EAQYASABEgLzFvD_BwE

 

[paddy555]

True but joe public typically doesn't have grass and hay analysis carried out and supplement accordingly, so the best off-the-shelf is equimins hoof mender.

I used hoof mender and it was OK. I then moved up to equimins metabalance which is a very similar spec to equimins advanced complete and that was a better product. However on top of that I further supplement vit E as there is insufficient in any of the products.
I don't see your reluctance with alfalfa. All of mine have been on the pellets for many years and they are all sound on it. I think it is a very good feed.