Positive navicular stories please

[PoppyAnderson]

I do not understand how you can say that when so many people are reporting great results with either forage plus or progressive earth.

In what way do you consider it 'best'?

I already said - it has the best spec. Go do the comparisons and you will see.

 

[PoppyAnderson]

I used hoof mender and it was OK. I then moved up to equimins metabalance which is a very similar spec to equimins advanced complete and that was a better product. However on top of that I further supplement vit E as there is insufficient in any of the products.
I don't see your reluctance with alfalfa. All of mine have been on the pellets for many years and they are all sound on it. I think it is a very good feed.

Some horses have an intolerance to it, so when you're trying to optimise nutrition and give your horse the best chance of recovery, it's easier to just eliminate it.

 

[Leo Walker]

I already said - it has the best spec. Go do the comparisons and you will see.

I did and it doesnt as per my post above

 

[ester]

I feed equimins as mentioned above, I don't and wouldn't feed hoof mender.

Remembering of course that there is not masses of research for RDAs anyway before you add the complication of forage. So what research are you using it to declare it best spec PA?

 

[ycbm]

I already said - it has the best spec. Go do the comparisons and you will see.

Highest amounts of things are not necessarily best. Inclusion of things that are not in others are not necessarily best. Absence of things that are in others might make it not best.

Please define your use of the word 'best'.


I'll define mine. 'What works most effectively at the lowest price for the individual horse'. And there is a range of supplements and bespoke minerals that do that job for people.

 

[ycbm]

Poppy, I have looked up the specification for Hoof Mender that you pointed to. For my land, which is high in iron and manganese, it has a level of copper which is totally inadequate for my horses, who would blood test too high in iron on that dose of copper.

Pro Hoof, for example, delivers 175mg of copper and Equimins only 53 mg, but I feed even more than that.

I hope that helps you understand why I am so keen to get you to stop referring to it as 'the best'.

 

[tallyho!]

Like ycbm, in my experience, one horse's needs do not necessarily match another.

Of all the horses I've had (even related ones) seem to have different requirements depending on individual metabolic needs and pharmacokinetic curves and what is already available in what they graze. Not everything is eliminated at the same rate so what might be beneficial to one horse, can quickly become toxic to another horse when fed at the same rate/dose. What might be high in your pasture/hay, might be low somewhere else.

Just because one brand/formulation says it has more of one thing than another, what you might find is, your horse might suit one over the other brand/formulation. There is no such thing as "best brand/formulation" but I have found that there is a "best match for the horse".

However, thanks to the "barefoot movement" (whatever you want to call it) is that there has been more research into what few things ARE essential for soundness here in the UK - if the foot be the barometer for whole horse health, then let it guide you.

For my horses, on this particular land, copper is the thing needed and that was a suggestion by someone here many years ago when I first took my navicular horse barefoot for soundness and I haven't really looked back. I suppose if I moved areas, I might need to take a look at that again but that's how it should be.

 

[Pinkvboots]

It's usually the case,ime, that vets and farriers think exactly as yours do, but go no further. What they then often want to do is 'help' the house stay sound by putting the foot back where they think it should be. They don't recognise that the change in the foot is to provide the optimum foot for the horse at that time. Worse, they often don't realise that the foot will go back to a 'better' shape when the problem that caused it to go odd is resolved, and that trying to do that too quickly can delay resolution of the issue.

I'm not saying that your own vet or farrier are doing this, just that you need to be aware that they might, especially if you want your horse to recover with a barefoot rehab.

I know what you mean my vet is already pushing for shoes to go back on I won't budge on that he has quite good quality feet he is happy to walk on tarmac and even the stony track doesn't bother him, obviously his not been ridden but I will cross that when I hopefully can get back on and take it slowly, I will take some pictures later I would put them on here put have no idea how to have tried a few times lol!

 

[Leo Walker]

If you get stuck inbox me and I will do them for you

 

[paddy555]

Some horses have an intolerance to it, so when you're trying to optimise nutrition and give your horse the best chance of recovery, it's easier to just eliminate it.

a lot less than you think other than scare stories on the internet. People are missing a good feedstuff. I think the vast majority of problems are based on the chaff form of alfalfa rather than the pellets.

I have 10 in an extremely mixed bunch of equines on alfalfa pellets in the winter. Surely one of them should be slightly footy on it yet no one is.

 

[ycbm]

a lot less than you think other than scare stories on the internet. People are missing a good feedstuff. I think the vast majority of problems are based on the chaff form of alfalfa rather than the pellets.

I have 10 in an extremely mixed bunch of equines on alfalfa pellets in the winter. Surely one of them should be slightly footy on it yet no one is.

Rockley feed alfalfa pellets

 

[Meowy Catkin]

I avoid alfalfa, but not because it makes my horses footy, but because it makes my gelding's skin itchy. I was also advised to avoid it as he has suffered from leukoclastic vasculitis in the past, which is absolute hell for the poor chap. The other two eat it quite happily, however it's easier for me if they all have the same chaff, so they all get plain grass chaff ATM.

 

[FfionWinnie]

I also feed alfalfa pellets without any issue.

 

[Regandal]

You won't find much post rehab evidence, as in scans or xrays, as the owner would have to pay for them. Insurance will pay if used for diagnosis obviously. Hence the anecdotal stuff only.

 

[Puddleduck]

Mine is on Alfa A chaff. I don't get to choose feed on the yard I keep him on but as the diet fed is low sugar & starch I was comfortable that it should be ok. It has been absolutely fine for him during our transition and still works fine. I've changed him onto soaked hay instead of a 50/50 mix of hay & haylage and the only impact I've seen is that the increased moisture make him wetter in the stable.
The paddock I'm using for turnout has mixed grasses which includes some rye which I know is considered a big issue for BF. He has only been turned out for about 8 weeks due to various issues that kept putting him back on box rest (I swear he & my vet have done a deal behind my back).
He was a little footy on stony ground on his fronts after being fine all the time he didn't have turnout so I reckon that is a small issue but he's fine with scoot boots for hacking and 100% on grass or in the school so it's not really an issue just something I will need to watch for and manage. I'm considering get an analysis done to see if there's anything needed through a balancer or supplement. He already has a magnesium oxide supplement daily which I started using as a calmer for behavioural issues before his injury came to light.
I'm hoping I can convince my insurance to pay for a rescan to follow up on request of my vet. I can't see anything in my policy that says they won't so it will need a specific discussion to find out. Both my vet and I would love to see a comparison to the first MRI as the initial prognosis was so poor. The injury was so bad it was visible straight away without them needing to process the scan images.

 

[tallyho!]

I avoid alfalfa, but not because it makes my horses footy, but because it makes my gelding's skin itchy. I was also advised to avoid it as he has suffered from leukoclastic vasculitis in the past, which is absolute hell for the poor chap. The other two eat it quite happily, however it's easier for me if they all have the same chaff, so they all get plain grass chaff ATM.

Yes I avoid alfalfa now, caused chronic abscessing. Took her off it and no abscess - sent her to be backed and they fed alfalfa, she abscessed 4th week there. Since being home on grass based products no problem.

I'm sure it suits most horses but not mine. Still, no complaints with grass.

 

[JoJo1998]

Many horses are sensative to alfalfa, so it's easier to advise to just miss it out altogether at first. Micronised linseed is one of the most cost effective feeds out there. You only feed small amounts so it lasts forever. I always get first and plus the wrong way round!

Hi I have only just come on here as my 18yr old tax has navicular after X-rays and steroid in sections that lasted d5 weeks he is on 2 bute day and this last week he is on 4 bute day and not sound really his shoes are off and he is turned out ? any hope ?
Thanks jo

 

[JoJo1998]

Rockleyfarm.blogspot.com

I hope that your vets have told you that the condition of the navicular bone itself is very rarely the cause of the lameness?

So what is the cause of the lameness ?

 

[Pinkvboots]

So what is the cause of the lameness ?

It's normally the surrounding soft tissue but this thread is old so some people don't post on here anymore ycbm does but I don't think PoppyA does

 

[Casey76]

Are you booting him? 4 bute a day is not something you want to do for more than a couple of days at most - unless you are in an ‘end of life’ situation. A dose that high is going to damage the liver and stomach pretty quickly.

Do you have photos of the feet, side on, from ground level? Is your farrier involved, to trim the feet to the xrays?

 

[Pinkvboots]

Thats quite a lot of bute I personally would want further investigation or a second opinion, my navicular horse was only ever about 3 tenths lame on a circle but that improved after a few weeks on Bute.

 

[tallyho!]

Jojo do you have x-rays and also photos of the hooves? How long have the shoes been off?

I re-habbed a 10yo horse with navicular back to competition so yes there is hope. Have you made any other changes to diet just in case there is any inflammation related to EMS that is making him so lame?

 

[Reacher]

So what is the cause of the lameness ?

You might find this link interesting
https://thehorse.com/181721/bowker-navicular-issues-begin-earlier-than-we-think/
And this
"Effects of barefoot trimming on hoof morphology" by Clayton , R Bowker et al - Paper discusses trimming to rehab long toed underslung hooves”

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1751-0813.2011.00806.x