POSTS TONIGHT SEEM VERY

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I'd be expecting it to be getting laminitis, unless we are talking a vitamin supplement for really dire forage rations. Not a personal dig at you, but it's my main rant topic.

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Not taken as a dig....

What I feed would mostly be described as forage, I guess, speedibeet, alfalfa/chaff, multivits - but I am happy to add soaked oats when the weather is extreme or work levels are high and they get ad lib haylage when grazing is poor - no lammi ponies here
 
What a fantastic thread! Only just found it.

Would like to give my tuppence worth.

Horses are horses. If they can't cope out 24/7 without rugs and cuddles then WE as the human race have damaged them.

I think that we haven't actually done that much damage, and that most can cope and are happier if they're left alone in a herd with enough grass and freedom. They soooooo don't want to be in stables or being ridden and kept fit and shiny, and I KNOW none of them have an ambition to get round Badminton or be Grand Prix horses.

Yes there are some that have laminitis or cushings or whatever, and in the natural state they would have died. We can keep them going but let's not fool ourselveds that this is natural or 'what they want' because they have no concept of death or lifespan, or ambition, or any of the emotions we project on to them.

That's why the best way to despatch a horse is to shoot it outside its stable whilst blowing a hunting horn (as long as its had the joy of hunting of course........).

Long - sorry.
 
Well, we hunted a Welshie on third cut meadow haylage, Hi Fi lite and speedibeet. Nutcase!

I accept a two day a week-er might need a handful extra, so long as it was doing full days
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Sorry only did a quick reply so didn't see how you treated yours!!!!!

Personally i have a horse because i love the very being of them, the power they have and the presense they hold.
I waited my whole life to own one. I rode my bike as a young girl, many, many miles to groom a tethered gypsy horse, just to be near it.

Now i am fianally able to have a horse of my own, it is treated as well as it can be. If he needs it, he has it, and will not go without.
In return he takes me around the countryside for as many hours as i ask him to. Steps on a trailer, that he really rather wouldn't. Does pretty much what i ask him to.
So if i treat him like a person, and am soppy with it......
SORRY
He has showed me love and loyalty that i would not expect from a human but that doesn't make him one, and he isn't treated like one. He is treated with the love and respect he deserves!!
And when he shouts to me when i arrive at the yard, i know it is all worth while
 
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Well, we hunted a Welshie on third cut meadow haylage, Hi Fi lite and speedibeet. Nutcase!

I accept a two day a week-er might need a handful extra, so long as it was doing full days
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Naturally...
 
I am probably what you might call soppy in that I rugged (MW wug) my boy (warmblood 20month colt) when it was raining non-stop as he was absolutely freezing rugless, even though he had grown a thick winter coat. Even with extra forage he was freezing as the water had got all the way through his coat partly because there wasn't much shelter in the field. I feed a youngstock mix / suregrow, chaff and horsehage depending on the amount of grass avaliable and it's nutrient level and I talk to him and groom him and such and I might give a supplement if it were necessary. However, he also lives out 24/7 with a companion. He is now rugless now that the weather is better and he is happier but he was not as miserable before as when he was out rugless when it was wet and windy and cold so sometimes it really depends on the horse.

Personally I feel that just because a person humanises their horse it does not mean that they do not understand that horses have different needs to humans. I have seen horses overfed and overrugged because the owner thinks that a horse needs more food because they are bigger animals and they feel cool not warm and toasty so they must need a rug and they were only too aware that they were horses. I would have loved for my boy to have gone rugless all winter but he just couldn't manage it so I am not going to let him get so cold that he is tucked under,shivering and really unhappy (I know what his cues are and that when he gets into a state where he won't even let you catch him then he is in a bad way in terms of cold + the weather wasn't going to let up any time soon).

In terms of emotions, horses are not humans, no, but they can love and learn and be grateful and show thanks, be protective and be aggressive, and they can fear and hurt and be comforted like any creature. Sometimes I think people confuse humanising with these traits, all of which should be taken note of and some of which should be cherished and some should be prevented from ever having to be felt.
 
In our area there is a dealer who displays hers 'collection' in a field on a main road, then some are kept stabled (the visibly, longstanding neglect cases).

I drive up to check on the horses in the field on a regular basis-its depressing and pitiful. I wish and i am sure they do that someone will take them and give them some of that soppy spoiling.
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Most of the horses I have ridden (have never had my own) have been much better company / conversation than some humans
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I think anthropomorphism is a fairly common human trait - I used to talk to my bacteria in the lab - and is fairly harmless as long as you are aware that it isn't real.
Someone (NeilM?) said
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'ah, he does this because he knows it makes me laugh / cross / nervous'. Sorry, he does it because he wants to.

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And yes, this may be true but I do think that if a horse does something that makes you laugh then you reward it, either with a pat or a treat or a break in work. In the same way that if a horse does something that makes you nervous then chances are the average rider will back off and not ask the horse to do whatever it was. The horse then learns that doing X means it gets a treat or reward and doing Y means it gets out of work. I think what I'm saying is yes, the horse does something because it wants to, but it is your reaction that conditions it. As most people want to have a 'bond' with their horses it is nicer for them to believe that the horse is doing whatever it is for their reaction and not the consequences of it.
 
All mine lives out 24/7 and comes in for a feed every day,they are on a full Forage Diet and daily feed is calculated/monitered on what they are doing,and now when the grass is slowly coming through they are starting to leave some of their feed...They are all rugged up during the winter and rugless as from May Time depending on weather,sometimes i put on a rain sheet, the last thing that i want is that they get cold and start to loose weight...
But we humans have done too much interferance and have pampered horses to much....
I "talk" to my horses and got a very strong bond to all of them in different ways and know what they want and need...Could not be without them
 
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What would be your opinion on the practice of keeping horses in during the day and turned out at night, all year long?

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Thats exactly what 2 of mine does...in Morning or Afternoon for feed/hay and a snooze and then back out,they thrive on it and start baninging the door after 4 hourse or so when they want to go back out !!
 
QR
Good morning!
Not replying to anyone in particular, but wanted to raise the topic of feeds and supplements.
Unless you have your horse/pony blood tested, you don't really know that it is lacking in a particular mineral/vitamin...and in some cases feeding excess can be harmful (even if they are promoted as 'natural' such as herbs).
Feeds - people routinely phone food companies for feed rationing and content advice - but feed companies are, well, in the business of selling feed. My favourite example is the 'Good doer' mixes - feed for horses that don't need fed
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Any thoughts?
This debate is really interesting, and has managed to steer clear of personal insults - hurrah!
S
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I've only found this this morning and its quite facinating.
I'm a bugger for talking to my horses like they are humans (e.g. asking them if they've had a nice day and what they've been up to!) but I KNOW they're not and quite frankly they don't understand a word I'm saying. They do however respond to my tone of voice.
We have to bring the horses in at night as those are the yard rules (otherwise they would be out) but mine get chucked out at 0545 regardless of the weather and in at 1800 ish. They are both rugged but only in medium weight rugs and both are warm.
When it was freezing cold this week they had one rug on - this was greeted with horror by my fellow liveries some of whom were triple rugging, bandaging horses legs and lying rugs across the bottoms of doors as "draft" excluders. Strangely enough mine survived the night and I didn't find a horse shaped popsicle in the stable in the morning.
The older horse is on cortaflex but other than that neither get any other supplements as how would I know what they're lacking in? They're both only fed hard food in the winter whilst the grass is poor - come the summer they'll have hay at night to keep them occupied but thats it.
So do i treat them like humans - in so far as i natter away to them then yes. Do i smother them in love - I'd like to think not.
 
I think it is very snobbish to imply that unless one is wealthy and privileged enough to own 23 acres of prime grazing land that one should not contemplate owning a horse. There are plenty of us paupers out here who have a lot to offer a horse - not 23 acres maybe, but a lot of dedication and expertise, nonetheless.

If people want to attribute human characteristics to their animals, whether they be dogs, cats or horses, then let them I say. What harm does it do to give your horse a cuddle if they have performed well for you? And, once again, it is patronising in the extreme to assume that your way of caring for a horse is the only way. No-one knows everything even (especially?) those who think they do.
 
These are some of my thoughts;

- I am not actually sure that any of us know 'how' a horse thinks - What is the scientific picture?
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- I am probably what you would class as 'soppy' over my horse. I talk to him (although I am aware that he doesn't speak English, but he probably can appreciate tone of voice). I speak to him, I think, because he can't answer back!
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I like my horse to have what I think HE needs....all horses are different (I am not sure that one size fits all). My horse likes to come in for some period during the day/night, that is how he is........so I get him in.........
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- I can't see the problem with people buying matching gear for their horses or lovely colour coordinated rugs - If they want to dress their horse entirely in pink then as far as I can see if causes the horse no harm!

- In the management of my horse I do take into account some aspects of more 'natural' lifestyle/diet for the horse. My horse is, however, on a glucosamine supplement with other things in it. I can tell you that if he wasn't he would not be able to move freely and cope with normal work. I don't agree with horses being stabled 24/7, I certainly like my horse to go out every day. Personally I don't groom every day necessarily, I am sure my horse doesn't care about that. I do agree that over-rugging is horrible and I try to bear that in mind. My horse has ad-lib forage at all times. I have seen owners (maybe you could describe them as soppy) who don't like their horses going out incase they get muddy or are 'allergic' to rainwater! Also, who rug their horses til they are pertpetually sweating and feed ridiculous amounts of hard feed making their horses ill...........perhaps this is where soppy/'humanising' is dangerous.
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QR.

Well that was a bit of a marathon!!

My twopenneth.....I couldnt care less if someone wants to express their love for any animal by speaking to it or stroking it or by thinking the horse has emotions or feelings it clearly doesnt have. The only deluded person in this case is the owner.

What I do object to is when it spills over into management, over feeding, over rugging, lack of turnout and exercise etc.

So, in essence, a little anthropromorphism is acceptable, Im guilty of this as Im sure most of the rest of us are, but if your mental state starts to impact on the horse then its gone too far.
 
QR - agree with JM07 re: 24/7 turnout, I wouldnt keep a pony if I could not provide this lifestyle for him/her. Is it not the case that failing to turn a horse out, is denying him of one of his basic freedoms/needs..?

xxx
 
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Horses are horses. If they can't cope out 24/7 without rugs and cuddles then WE as the human race have damaged them.

I think that we haven't actually done that much damage, and that most can cope and are happier if they're left alone in a herd with enough grass and freedom. They soooooo don't want to be in stables or being ridden and kept fit and shiny, and I KNOW none of them have an ambition to get round Badminton or be Grand Prix horses.

Yes there are some that have laminitis or cushings or whatever, and in the natural state they would have died. We can keep them going but let's not fool ourselveds that this is natural or 'what they want' because they have no concept of death or lifespan, or ambition, or any of the emotions we project on to them.

That's why the best way to despatch a horse is to shoot it outside its stable whilst blowing a hunting horn (as long as its had the joy of hunting of course........).


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Excellent post Bedlam. This totally sums it up for me.

Absolute rubbish that WBs, TBs, Arabs, non-natives etc cannot live outside 24/7 without dropping weight. So long as they have ad-lib, good quality forage available and some form of shelter to get out of the wind and rain (or a rug if desired) then all/any horses can, and do, live happily out in FAR more extreme conditions where I live. I know, I have them all here....ours are molly-coddled though and get to wear rugs
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, most over here do not, they just grow long furry coats.
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I think it is very snobbish to imply that unless one is wealthy and privileged enough to own 23 acres of prime grazing land that one should not contemplate .

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I agree with this. I thought we had got beyond a state where horse ownership was just the right of the priviledged few. Most of us could only dream of having access to that kind of acreage with good paddocks, natural shelter and everything else one might require to keep horses in their 'natural' state in this ever shrinking island of ours.
 
The Bedouin, living very harsh nomadic lives in the desert, would often keep their favourite mare actually living in their tent with them, fed on dates and milk, curled up at night on a soft warm rug, and generally treated rather better than their wives and children. Oh - and they wore very pretty multi-coloured beautifully embroidered halters, bridles and saddles as well, with tassels!

How soppy/anthropomorphic is that?!!!

And yet these Arab mares were still tough enough to gallop long distances and carry their owners into 'ghazu' (raids) and battles. They were fit, hardy, brave little war-horses....

Anyway - can't we all just agree that kisses, cuddles, pet-names, pink rugs and a bit of anthropomorphic language are all absolutely harmless, providing the horses are cared for properly and according to their needs?
 
lol, sense from htobago! For me if the horses are happy and healthy, who cares if you call them grumpy, sod, princess, purty dumpling?
 
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I think it is very snobbish to imply that unless one is wealthy and privileged enough to own 23 acres of prime grazing land that one should not contemplate owning a horse. There are plenty of us paupers out here who have a lot to offer a horse - not 23 acres maybe, but a lot of dedication and expertise, nonetheless.

*** where have i said i OWN 23 acres of prime real estate??***

If people want to attribute human characteristics to their animals, whether they be dogs, cats or horses, then let them I say. What harm does it do to give your horse a cuddle if they have performed well for you? And, once again, it is patronising in the extreme to assume that your way of caring for a horse is the only way. No-one knows everything even (especially?) those who think they do.

**** i've not once said i know everything and not once have i been patronising,

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yet another judgemental, [****] stirring thread. *yawns* these forums are getting dull.

'you dont look after your horse the way I do, so you must be wrong!'

fcuk off, I'll look after mine the way I see fit thanks
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You haven't been patronising JM07? Gosh, your standards must be slipping. I think dutch_viscount has a good point, actually, this thread IS judgemental and designed soley to stir and yes, it is dull. I don't normally bother to reply to such tosh so I'll bow out now and let you get on with upsetting people.
 
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NO...WAKE UP....SMELL THE COFFEE..HORSES DONT THINK LIKE THAT.......................

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can i have a skinny latte, gotta go n tuck NEDDY up and give him a carrot b 4 bed!! LOVL
 
QR -

*chuckles*

I never do understand why people become so defensive about their horses on posts like this. I think JM likes to say what she thinks, possibly with an element of enjoyment seeing some people flying around like headless chickens because she may have said something which makes them feel annoyed/insecure.

If people were TRULY secure about the way in which they look after and treat their horses, then why would they feel the need to get all upset and even swear at someone who disagrees with their methods?
 
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QR -



If people were TRULY secure about the way in which they look after and treat their horses, then why would they feel the need to get all upset and even swear at someone who disagrees with their methods?

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I think most will agree that its the tone of JM07's post that rile people rather than the content...I think she knows this don't you
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Well..I'm 100% secure in the way I look after my horses which, incidentally, is very similar to JM07 but can still respect that others do it differently and don't feel the need to sneer at them
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There are plenty of people who look after their horses in a similar way to JM07 but don't get it right and the animal suffers and vice versa.
I've been to see my daughters pony today who is out on loan. She has lived out rug/feed free for 5 yrs with me and is now in at night and out in the day..still the same happy little pony that left several months ago
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