Potential Kissing Spine??

[xCiaraGx]

Hi,

My cob has PSSM type 1. He is well managed but has the occasional flare up, which usually presents as stiffness, exercise intolerance and general unhappiness in himself.

We compete dressage and have been having a go at elementary. We have a trainer who is BD/BHS trained and have worked with her and other for years to improve his way of going dramaticly.

However, in the last 12-18 months he’s struggled in the canter work in a different way to how his PSSM usually presents. And I am thinking of digging further into it.

His canter is strong and can be very balanced (depending on how correct I am riding!) but now we are asking for more self carriage and working him more uphill/upright he is backing off in canter significantly. If I let go of the contact he remains stuffy too.
The only quick fix we have found is if I ride the canter in a light seat position. Then he is more willing to take the contact and move forward, but it’s still not 100%. We don’t have any of these issues out hacking (usually he’s like a rocket!)

I’m starting to think there is something wrong in his back. He has a McTimony massage every 3 months and Vet Physio every 4-6 months. Saddle is done every 4-6 months and teeth and other checks are all regular too.


I am considering doing a bute trial next week to see if it is pain related.

Does this sound like kissing spine presentation?

He is 14 years old.


TIA

 

[sbloom]

Horses can change shape way more rapidly than a 4-6 month saddle fitting interval. KS presents in all sorts of different ways so it's really hard to say. Hacking usually means more endorphins, an easy way for horses to cover up pain, but also horses hacking aren't in bend, and aren't on surfaces so it can be informative.

Loss of performance review with a vet, saddle check at some point but a saddle fitter can't have you ride a sore horse and you can't fully check a saddle without seeing it ridden, so a team approach is needed to make sure nothing is missed.

 

[ycbm]

Just to warn you that my vet told me that bute trials are frequently no help with kissing spines.
.

 

[TheMule]

KS, PSD, hocks…could be any and all of those things. Start with a thorough work up with a good performance vet

 

[xCiaraGx]

Just to warn you that my vet told me that bute trials are frequently no help with kissing spines.
.

Did they explain why? Is it just too much pain to ease with Bute?

 

[xCiaraGx]

Horses can change shape way more rapidly than a 4-6 month saddle fitting interval. KS presents in all sorts of different ways so it's really hard to say. Hacking usually means more endorphins, an easy way for horses to cover up pain, but also horses hacking aren't in bend, and aren't on surfaces so it can be informative.

Loss of performance review with a vet, saddle check at some point but a saddle fitter can't have you ride a sore horse and you can't fully check a saddle without seeing it ridden, so a team approach is needed to make sure nothing is missed.

Yes, but we find the 4-6 month bracket works well for him. I use a very well respected and experienced master saddler so I am sure he will happily work with me and vet to look further into this.
Interesting point about the hacking. And would the same be for when he is worked long and low or in a less collected frame? Has he is quite happy like that.

 

[ycbm]

Did they explain why? Is it just too much pain to ease with Bute?

It doesn't work well on purely nerve based pain, I think.
.

 

[xCiaraGx]

It doesn't work well on purely nerve based pain, I think.
.

Okay, so it’s possibly if a bute trial helped that it’s something other or additional to just a simple KS?

 

[ycbm]

Okay, so it’s possibly if a bute trial helped that it’s something other or additional to just a simple KS?

Yes, sadly, and if it doesn't work its no guarantee that he doesn't have kissing spines. If it does "work" and he does have kissing spines it may be more likely it's because the kissing spines have happened due to hock or PSD issues, which will likely be affected by the bute, and is a very common situation.
.

 

[sbloom]

Yes, but we find the 4-6 month bracket works well for him. I use a very well respected and experienced master saddler so I am sure he will happily work with me and vet to look further into this.
Interesting point about the hacking. And would the same be for when he is worked long and low or in a less collected frame? Has he is quite happy like that.

Oh yes it can work well but it's even better to have your fitter show you how to take tracings, take photos regularly etc as horses can literally change in a week for all sorts of reasons. Always good to catch is asap, but no, it's not something many people do, and you're having more regular checks than most.

I think every horse varies, I'm not an expert in the condition, just work as a remedial fitter with quite a few horses that have been diagnosed. It's so complex, for instance a horse can become sore after a better fitting saddle, as that saddle not only allows the horse to generally "move better", but if you're working to stabilise them (more important than most realise, including vets imo) with slower controlled work and they truly push up in front then, if there is low grade inflammation from impingements, then it can get worse. So stretching out the spaces between the processes CAN make them more comfortable but not always.

Yes, sadly, and if it doesn't work its no guarantee that he doesn't have kissing spines. If it does "work" and he does have kissing spines it may be more likely it's because the kissing spines have happened due to hock or PSD issues, which will likely be affected by the bute, and is a very common situation.
.

I think it would be incredibly rare that there wouldn't be issues/compensation elsewhere in the body, I think you and I would broadly agree that treatment and rehab needs to be looking at movement patterns and why the horse got the problems in the first place. Gillian Higgins - "the vast majority of injuries in the horse are the result of repetitive strain" - ie incorrect use of the body. This is casting aspersions on no-one, training methods have changed, knowledge has changed, and those at the cutting edge of this sort of rehab see things very differently from "inject now and again when next needed, and rehab is strengthening and fittening and not a lot else".