Potential problem with new horse...

C

Christmas Crumpet

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Had new horse 5 stage vetted 2.5 weeks ago and he passed with flying colours. Only thing of note were 2 splints behind and some old scar tissue on a front fetlock from an injury as a baby.

I've had him home 2 weeks and had him in my usual routine. Out all the time, fed in field, exercised in morning.

I've noticed - he has to cough after a canter and makes a slight noise, he drags his hind toes trotting on the road and also is a bit iffy about picking up hind feet which concerns me. My other horse has spavin and these were the signs. He also has a very icky willy which he won't let me near. I've just rung my vets to book him in for a willy clean and general MOT. I'm worried about his willy having warts. Its hard to tell because it is so dirty but there are big lumps that I'm not sure are smeg or growths.

If he had spavin would his flexion tests show anything? I know from my other horse that he was definately positive on both hinds - about 3/10's. Should I be concerned?

This horse has been in an eventing yard and has hardly done any hacking out. He is fit in a "get fit quick" sense and so finds hills etc quite hard work.

Where would I stand with the seller if he does have warts on his willy, comes up lame from flexions when sees the vet etc? Would I have a case to be able to send him back and get my money back? I'm assuming he had bloods taken when vetted. Do I get them sent off and analysed in case they gave him a painkiller etc? There is no sign of wear and tear on his back feet but I think that's because he didn't do any roadwork before I got him.

Am a little worried about all of this so would like some advice.
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You'd be taking the issues up with the vet who 5 stage vetted him, rather than the seller.

However, don't panic. The toe dragging may be a shoeing issue. And yes, there may be some stiffness in the hocks, but that is not the end of the world. Can't remember how old his is...........

The cough, could be a virus (remember he's just moved yards, so these things do happen. A bit like a kid going to a new school and getting every cold going....)

And he may actually not be fit - just slim - hence blowing up a hill.
 
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Had new horse 5 stage vetted 2.5 weeks ago and he passed with flying colours. Only thing of note were 2 splints behind and some old scar tissue on a front fetlock from an injury as a baby.

I've had him home 2 weeks and had him in my usual routine. Out all the time, fed in field, exercised in morning.

I've noticed - he has to cough after a canter and makes a slight noise, he drags his hind toes trotting on the road and also is a bit iffy about picking up hind feet which concerns me. My other horse has spavin and these were the signs. He also has a very icky willy which he won't let me near. I've just rung my vets to book him in for a willy clean and general MOT. I'm worried about his willy having warts. Its hard to tell because it is so dirty but there are big lumps that I'm not sure are smeg or growths.

If he had spavin would his flexion tests show anything? I know from my other horse that he was definately positive on both hinds - about 3/10's. Should I be concerned?

This horse has been in an eventing yard and has hardly done any hacking out. He is fit in a "get fit quick" sense and so finds hills etc quite hard work.

Where would I stand with the seller if he does have warts on his willy, comes up lame from flexions when sees the vet etc? Would I have a case to be able to send him back and get my money back? I'm assuming he had bloods taken when vetted. Do I get them sent off and analysed in case they gave him a painkiller etc? There is no sign of wear and tear on his back feet but I think that's because he didn't do any roadwork before I got him.

Am a little worried about all of this so would like some advice.
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Legally, you don't have much of a case agains the seller, as you had him five stage vetted (although they may still take him back).
You'd only really have a case against the vet - and good luck finding another vet to support you on that!
I wouldn't be too worried about the cough after canter (presumably the noise you mention isn't whistling or roaring?) as it's probably just him getting fitter.
The hind toe dragging, stiffness picking up legs, would concern me too - as you say they are classic signs of spavins developing. Toe dragging is really a sign of reduced flexion in the hock, and fetlock joints - so shoeing would make no difference (although increasing fitness may help).
You could get corrective shoeing done (lateral extensions, rolled toe to increase breakover) but that's remedial, so a little off topic.
If I were you, and depending on how much you paid for him, I'd get the bloods checked out, and also think about further investigation of the hock joints (assuming his pelvis looks normal).
Good luck.
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If he did have spavin though - surely he would have reacted positively to flexions? That's what I don't understand!!

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IME not always.
My old mare has a beauty of a spavin LH, but has always shown less flexion on RH in flexion tests.
Also, it could be something that has just started since you bought him. You seem to say that you are doing a lot more hacking with him, presumably involving road work. The concussion could cause an increase in bone density (as he has been used to working on surfaces, presumably?) but could also trigger splints/spavins etc.
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Oh, I forgot to say, toe dragging could also be caused by low grade back pain - so it might be worth getting a physio/osteo person out (suitably qualified and with veterinary permission, obviously).
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When I tried him out we went xc and he was great. I then took him down the road and thought he was dragging his toes then. I got back to the yard and asked about it. The owner (Tanya Kyle) said that he was in desperate need of shoeing and that he didn't drag his toes - she pointed out no wear to toes but then again he didn't do roadwork.

This has all made me feel so crap - he was supposed to be my horse of a lifetime and everything just feels wonky already.
 
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When I tried him out we went xc and he was great. I then took him down the road and thought he was dragging his toes then. I got back to the yard and asked about it. The owner (Tanya Kyle) said that he was in desperate need of shoeing and that he didn't drag his toes - she pointed out no wear to toes but then again he didn't do roadwork.

This has all made me feel so crap - he was supposed to be my horse of a lifetime and everything just feels wonky already.

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Well, some horses are just lazy behind, particularly if they are unfit, it might just be that.
Worst case scenario, spavins, he may work through them in a few months.
My old girl had a spavin from before being broken (injury caused it) and is still sound now, at nearly 21.
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It might just be that you need to pop him on some bute through the winter and work him til the spavin fuses.
Ask if you can get the same vet who initially did the 5 Stage, to come out and have another look, before you start worrying too much.
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The owner said that he was in desperate need of shoeing and that he didn't drag his toes

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Have you had him shod since you bought him? Did you trot him up for the farrier? Did you ask the vet to take note of it at the vetting?
 
I would be concerned about the noise he makes (if by that you mean a whistle or roar) and would bring it up with the vet. The coughing could be something or nothing but more than likely nothing. If you end up getting the vet out it would be worth asking him to check. But I wouldn't get carried away with the dragging toes and picking hind legs up - it may have been a sign of spavin in your old horse, but I've had countless stuffy/lazy irish horses that drag their toes and are funny about picking back feet up that havn't had anything wrong with them at all. If he had spavin bad enough to affect him picking up his feet, it should have shown up on flexion tests. If I were you, I would get a different vet out asap for second opinion to check wind, look at the cough and redo flexion tests. If any problems are found from these basic assessments, you should then have a pretty good case against the first vet. If not, then there is not much to be done. Either the horse is fit and sound and you can stop worrying, or the problems were to early in their development to be spotted. I hope you new horse turns out to be sound and well!
 
He was shod straight after his vetting by old owners so he came with new set for me. I rang the vet about 5 days after I got the horse and said I was worried because he was dragging his toes on the road and had anything at all come up from his flexion test. Vet said nothing at all and not to worry because he'd had horses before which weren't lame at all and dragged their toes. It was more of an inconvience because they wore their shoes down quicker. I was not convinced because, as said above, Happy has spavin and his toe dragging was what prompted me to have him checked out.

The other thing I forgot to say in original post was that horse has a very clicky stifle or hock behind - not quite sure where the clicking was coming from. I also mentioned this to the vet and asked if it was a problem. He said no - some horses just do click.

So I have raised the problem with the vet who did the vetting and he said nothing to worry about about either toe dragging or clicky joint.

My farrier hasn't been out yet obviously because horse has had shoes on 3 weeks and doesn't need to come out yet. He has also just fallen off his stable roof and broken his heel so is off for 3 months so need to find a temporary one!!
 
[quoteMy old mare has a beauty of a spavin LH, but has always shown less flexion on RH in flexion tests.


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Flexion test are not an assessment of the horse's ability to flex joints - the vet is looking for lamness / stiffness when the horse trots away after the joints have been held for a minute or so in a flexed position.
 
So if the horse was 0/10 lame after flexion what would that indicate? There was nothing wrong at all?!!

As far as I am aware - horses with spavin react positively to flexion tests.
 
Oh dear. Recently been through similar so know how you feel. So my take on the situation would be to return him. There seem to be so many issues and presumably you paid a lot of money for him because he was supposed to be good (i.e. no issues?) It all depends, I believe, on what information you were given, and was it in writing, on which you formed your decision to buy him. Or do you really like him in other ways so want to keep him and try to fix any problems which would be better for the horse of course. Ring up the BHS legal helpline (hopefully you are a member) for info on where you stand legally and they will tell you the right thing to do now to protect your interests.
 
Agree with Woolyjumper re flexions.

There are lots of horse that drag toes, being unfit, lazy, back/tack issues. And clicking in joints is often the ligament snapping over the bone.

However, in my case my horse's hocks click and he started dragging his toes. OCD and arthritis in the upper hock, retired aged 7. He passed every single flexion test up until the most recent one when he was so lame he wasnt weight bearing on the worst leg. He was 3/10ths lame in bad leg, 1/10ths in other.
 
I'd get his hocks x-rayed (which you really ought to have done before you bought him if there were questions over his hind leg movement). If he does have spavins, go back to the vendor and see if they will give you a refund or an exchange, however they don't have to.
 
IME flexion tests are quite dependent on the skill of the vet involved. Some vets can make any horse lame, some don't notice anything! Depends how much they flex the joint, how long they flex the joint etc. I know that having one horse with problems makes you absolutely paranoid with all others but I would be concerned that he doesn't like to have his back feet picked up. That in my experience has been the first sign of trouble with the hocks in a previously easy-to-do horse. If you bought him from a dealer and you're not happy, then send him back. There are lots of horses out there that are tough and sound and don't make you worry horrendously about them!
 
My boy Drags his feet if he isn't pushing from behind and if he is over due for shoeing. I'd definetly have a farrier look at him first, as there advise is generally good (obviously if you have a farrier you trust) and there a lot cheaper than vets!
 
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My old mare has a beauty of a spavin LH, but has always shown less flexion on RH in flexion tests.


Flexion test are not an assessment of the horse's ability to flex joints - the vet is looking for lamness / stiffness when the horse trots away after the joints have been held for a minute or so in a flexed position.

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Oh, I didn't realise I had to do all the disclaimers
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Here goes - flexion tests involve all the joints in the hind limb and therefore cannot be relied upon as evidence of damage to a particular joint.
Flexion tests can also show up arthritic changes in older horses.
Horses may be reluctant to flex their limb and/or show a reduced ability if they have bony growths (spavins) or any other diseases involving the articular surfaces of the joints.
Not all horses with spavin react positively to a flexion test, either in terms of resisting flexion, or trotting away sound afterwards.

There, I think that clarifies it...
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Are you pushing him up into the bridle and making him work over his back when trotting on the road? When I *hunt trot* my horse will sometimes drag toes but if I pick him up and ride him correctly he stops - it is laziness with him.

I would discuss your concerns with your vet as mentioned. IF he thinks something is amiss then yes, test the bloods.
 
a lot of horses drag their toes if they aren't being ridden up to the bridle properly.

he could be blowing because he isn't fit.

my eventer coughs every time i ride when we have our first trot- has done for 5 years and whenever we go BE eventing he is usually in the top 5 fastest xc times of the day and has excellent recovery- the cough is just a habit of his.

i think you need to get your farrier to look at feet (could have long toes), ride him up to the bridle a bit and monitor whether his breathing improves
- you would be very hasty imo to either try and return him or make a complaint to the vet.

were you present at the vetting??
 
I would be more inclined to think this horse is lazy behind and maybe trying to push him a little bit more to use his back end may improve this.

Personally i would have thought a vet would have picked up on any spavin signs if these probelms have occurred so soon after purchase as I would imagine stiffness would be apparent when they lifted the leg for flexion?? (still, i am not a vet so who knows!)

The cough I would keep an eye on but not be overly concerned unless it gets worse over the next few days/weeks.

As for the sheath - I ahve a pony who gets a much dirtier smellier sheath than our other horses and it needs cleaning a fair bit. I would have thought a vet would have picked up if there had been warts present though - ours certainly did when vetting my sisters horse but they were miniscule little things.

the sheath problem could also be a factor in the toe draging as maybe the horse is very itchy/uncomfortable. i know my pony has a funny action behind but often wants to rub his bum and legs and I think this is in an attempt to relieve his itchy sheath. If he's very itchy he can walk funny behind. we clean it and have been told to use canestan on it which we have done to relieve the itching. Maybe a good clean will help hhim.

Oh and clicking stifles/hocks - my horse has ALWAYS had this - it makes me cringe as his really 'pop' but he's not had any issues since I got him 14 years ago.
 
Thanks everyone for advice!! I've spoken to vet and had a long chat with him and been told not to get my knickers in a twist about it just yet. If the horse passed a 5 stage vetting with v. strict vet things may be ok. William is having an MOT and willy clean on Weds!!

Lady T - thanks for advice re: sheath. I did wonder whether it affected him which is why I am so keen to clean it (although am not really that keen personally if that makes sense!!). Having seen how smeggy it is I would think it would be a bit itchy or uncomfortable so lets see what happens when its cleaned. What do I do if he does have warts on it?

Thanks esp. to Kat B for all your kind words. Will take some pics of Wee Willy and post them for you - you can definately tell me whether he's looking better than when you last saw him.

Will keep you all updated. Keep fingers crossed for William and I!!
 
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