Potentially aggressive puppy help

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Laura2408

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Hi, I would love some advice from anyone experienced in this sort of thing.

I have a 9 month old male collie x GSD puppy. Very confident, not neutered yet as large breed and still growing. Very well socialised and meets people and dogs daily. Lives with 2 other normal and well balanced dogs.

He has always liked to bark at strangers, I thought out of excitement. I worked with adpt trainer using treats/sit nicely and wait for people to pass.

A month ago this changed and he became more reactive to strangers. He was off lead and aggressively ran to someone barkkng and circling them. I apologised and thought it unusual but since this he has started to do this to every dog and human he meets. I don't trust him as he nipped at a friend doing this and since he is on a lead but I would like to get this sorted ASAP. I have contacted behaviouralist but in the mean time does anyone have any ideas?
He has not had any bad experiences, is fine with me and other family dogs and is well behaved in the house...outside its like a switch has flicked and he hates everything.

He is a big strong lad and im scared of him a little bit now as I don't trust him not to nip at someone!
 
Maybe try putting this in dogs section? There are people on there work GSDs and collies. I imagine he is hitting the testosterone surge age and being a herding dog it is exhibiting in that way, but I wouldn't know how to stop it. I would put a muzzle on him if you are at all worried, that will make you feel more confident perhaps?
 
I take it hes not nervous of people? ie doing this from apprehension, a potential 'fear biter'?
If not, try walking him in a halti, or other headcollar type affair, rather than a collar and lead. The behaviour needs stopping now, the 'he has always barked at strangers' shouldv been corrected when it first began, I would think that this is an escalation of that behaviour. I wouldnt let him off the lead,as if he does this to someone they could report him for aggressive behaviour and he could be taken from you.A dog does not actually have to bite someone to be deemed 'aggressive'.
I would keep him under control, on a lead when out, and at home practise training to keep his mind occupied. Join your local Dog Training Club too, or try agility. Anything that keeps an intelligent working breed using its brains and doing what you want, and dont let him make up his own games.
 
I'd train him to wear a muzzle now regardless of if you can get it sorted- get a basket type so he can pant, drink etc but it save anyone being injured if there is a mistake. You need a good behaviourist- I'd probably neuter him personally so there's no testosterone in the equation and he'd be on a long line and a metaphorical short leash behaviour wise when out and about.
Collies are prone to herd and nip - this may be this coming out but obv he's too big to do this!
 
Laura2408 said:
…….. im scared of him a little bit now as I don't trust him not to nip at someone!
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Muzzling the dog in public will only be as a sticking plaster and could very well make matters worse. At 9 months, though the problem can be cured, that is very young for a dog to be showing an aggressive drive. You do need advice from an experienced person who can witness the dogs behaviour both in and out of your home and also how you manage it. You also need it sooner rather than later! Unacceptable behaviour needs to be nipped in the bud.

The reasons can be as varied as the dogs themselves, but all so often and with young alpha-males, it is simply a matter of having no pack leader, someone to steer and direct the dog, and so, being of a determined nature, he makes the decisions for himself. Again, at such a young age his behaviour is worrying, and 'IF' I'm right, then with an instilled discipline and with compliance so he will come to accept your authority. Can you manage that?

Internet diagnosis and prognosis is pointless in such cases because as with all dogs, the influences upon his daily routine can't be witnessed and so dealt with.

You need to find yourself someone locally who can see through his behaviour, and possibly yours, and advise you accordingly. The problem can be corrected but the longer that it goes on, the worse and the more entrenched it will become.

Alec.
 
My first thought was 'that is typical collie behaviour'. My speciality is with lurchers though so ignore me if you like. I'd look at getting advice from someone with collie experience though.
 
I've had collies all my life and known lots and I've never known one go up to strangers barking and threatening to bite !
 
Youve got a very strong mix there, the collie in him is wanting to work and the GSD to protect, you get the idea? I certainly agree you need skilled help now and anything you can do to stop him in this behaviour in the meantime to stop him practising this can only be a good thing. For safety sake I would muzzle him as you do sound nervous and under confident which will only feed his behaviour, keep him on a longline and try to avoid other people and dogs until you can get some help.
 
I agree with Dobiegirl, and I believe sometimes with a cross you can get the characteristics of both breeds you least want or need, in your case the 'need to work' of a collie and the protective instinct of the GSD.
A GSD is bred with a switch on/switch off mentality, and collies are work/work. Even resting collies arent really switched off, I think your dog may be a bit confused as to what his role in life is and when to perform it, and needs very strict guidelines on what he is and isnt allowed to do.
I would definately channel his desire to work into some sort of doggie activity.
 
bonny said:
I've had collies all my life and known lots and I've never known one go up to strangers barking and threatening to bite !
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But is this what is happening or is the dog trying to herd and nipping at ankles? Behaviour is easy to misinterpret.
 
Bonny,this is a GSD x collie, not just a collie! Actually I have known plenty of collies (WS and BC,not rough) nipif they arent taught not to. -indeed the harder ones do nip at stubborn sheep.
 
Hi everyone. Thank you for the replies I have read through them all.

In answer to some questions, he has been seen by behaviouralist and seperate trainer already but a course of sessions is hundreds of pounds which I can't afford ATM.

I have tried training with treats but he does not respect me at all and ive been told I need to be more authorative but I'm not sure how!

He runs up to people, barks and circles them with hackles up. He has not bitten but he looks aggressive and I have had him on a lead since the initial incidents!

He can also be territorial at home and I am working on this with him. He growls/barks at strangers. I have had 2 behaviour consults for this

In truth he is too much dog for me but I would like to try and work through it if possible rather than rehome/euth.

Thanks again
 
Hi Amymay. He attended puppy socialisation and then puppy foundation but currently does not attend any classes. I had no problems with him in class but he has always been very uninterested in people, he would prefer people left him alone and he was just left with his immediate family. He has never been the type of dog to go to strangers for a stroke.
He played with dogs as a puppy and was vey submissive but was bitten by a terrier and since then tends to give dogs a wide berth except when he is barking at them!

The behaviouralist suggested treating him when dogs or people were around so he learnt they were good but to be honest I have struggled with this as he takes a treat then goes back to barking/lunging straight after. He has never seemed to improve and I have been doing this since he was 16 weeks old.

I had a session with an older fashioned trainer who suggested he was taking the mick and to tell him off which works for a second but then he starts at the next dog/person.

I saw the behaviouralists when he was younger he hadn't seen one within the past few months.
 
Are there any training groups near you that wouldn't cost as much money but have the experience to advise with that sort of dog?

AFAIK collies aren't particularly treat orientated - it just isn't high enough value to them, compared to say a toy.
 
Laura2408 said:
……..

In truth he is too much dog for me but …….. .

Thanks again
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I admire your honesty and I suspect that you may be right. Ask yourself these questions; "Who's in charge of any situation? and, When we're in a position where he decides for himself what he will do, does he pay any heed to me?".

You have a potentially dangerous dog on your hands and though he hasn't bitten anyone 'yet', judging by your well described behaviour pattern, he almost certainly will.

The situation is not beyond repair. You've already recognised that treats are a waste of time, and you've also accepted that he doesn't have any respect for you. He's only 9 months of age, and he's the equivalent of a bolshy know-all teenager. To regain his respect, you're going to need to toughen yourself up a bit, and be the pack leader.

The reality is that you've expressed your concerns and the situation very well and all credit to you for that, but now, recognising the problems, it's up to you to direct operations. So many fail to recognise the realities and the facts, but you have and the next step is do-able, all by yourself and without spending hundreds of pounds on those who all so often, may well make matters worse. Before young fido becomes ever more convinced that he's in charge, you need to instil 'Discipline'!

Alec.

ets, and as a footnote; Have you expressed anger towards him, have you physically towered over him to have him comply with your wishes, and if you have, how does he react?

Another footnote!! Every now and then, the odd dog comes along and as a youngster which has no interest in strangers and no wish to accept them. It isn't to do with fear or previous experiences, it's that part of their wiring directs them to a 'closed' relationship and such dogs will rarely have their mindset changed. Such dogs are rare, but they do occur and the odd couple that I've had, have been 'managed' at best. Perhaps your 'old fashioned trainer' is right, perhaps he is taking the mick, but from your well explained posts, I doubt it.
 
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Are there any local IPO/Schutzhund clubs around you that hold classes? I know of a few- Herts, Norfolk and London areas. These people would be experienced in this type of dog,and behaviour.
IPO/Schutz isnt all about attack,there are qualifications in obedience only, and tracking.
Its about discipline,motivation and control and the trainers are very experienced, not some wuss used to controlling chihuahuas and the like with titbits.
Google Leerburg, they are good too but theyr in America, but you might get some tips from their videos.
 
Thanks again to all of you.

Alec, the original behaviouralist suggested he has a very aloof personality. He is very devoted to immediate family but has 0 interest in others. Even if they feed him he will take a treat and immediately walk away, he won't wait for a stroke if he has the choice. He has some good points but the bad ones are hard to deal with.
With me he is very affectionate. He will tolerate people he sees intermittently but he just does not like strangers. He has been like this since day 1...
She also suggested that he will never be a friendly accepting dog but would always be one I have to watch from the corner of my eye for the rest of his life.
He likes toys at home but I don't think a toy would be enough to recall him.

Most of his training has been done following postive reinforcement however I have shouted at him when I have lost my temper. He tends to back down and be quiet for a short period of time then start again. He has never been aggressive to me or family he knows in any way but would I suspect bite a stranger if they shouted at him.

I would like to try a bit of a former approach, but in truth I don't know where to start. If I shout at him he tends to just play deaf. A friend suggested giving him a sharp touch when he is in full on lunging and barking mode and telling him to sit but I have not tried this yet incase it makes things worse!
 
Laura2408 said:
Thanks again to all of you.

Alec, the original behaviouralist suggested he has a very aloof personality. He is very devoted to immediate family but has 0 interest in others. Even if they feed him he will take a treat and immediately walk away, he won't wait for a stroke if he has the choice. He has some good points but the bad ones are hard to deal with.
With me he is very affectionate. He will tolerate people he sees intermittently but he just does not like strangers. He has been like this since day 1...
She also suggested that he will never be a friendly accepting dog but would always be one I have to watch from the corner of my eye for the rest of his life.
He likes toys at home but I don't think a toy would be enough to recall him.

Most of his training has been done following postive reinforcement however I have shouted at him when I have lost my temper. He tends to back down and be quiet for a short period of time then start again. He has never been aggressive to me or family he knows in any way but would I suspect bite a stranger if they shouted at him.

I would like to try a bit of a former approach, but in truth I don't know where to start. If I shout at him he tends to just play deaf. A friend suggested giving him a sharp touch when he is in full on lunging and barking mode and telling him to sit but I have not tried this yet incase it makes things worse!
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I think Alec is right, you need to get firmer with your dog. What do you do when your dog is attack mode ?
 
Find yourself a really good trainingclass. They are inexpensive and can really help iron out problems and give yourself things to focus on.
 
Laura2408 said:
……..

Alec, the original behaviouralist suggested he has a very aloof personality. He is very devoted to immediate family but has 0 interest in others. Even if they feed him he will take a treat and immediately walk away, he won't wait for a stroke if he has the choice. He has some good points but the bad ones are hard to deal with.
With me he is very affectionate. He will tolerate people he sees intermittently but he just does not like strangers. He has been like this since day 1...
She also suggested that he will never be a friendly accepting dog but would always be one I have to watch from the corner of my eye for the rest of his life.

…….. !
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I had a collie dog like that once, probably one of the best working sheepdogs that I have ever had, I miss him to this day, and he was exactly as you described, and your description was word perfect! 'Aloof' was just the word. I could have done man-work with him.

Someone (stormox I think) suggested that you consider a Shutzhund (sp!) or an IOP group. I think that it's an excellent idea. From further reading of your posts, I suspect that it's highly unlikely that you will change his mind-set. Better perhaps to put it to a purpose, and rare though it is, sometimes the best dogs arrive as mistakes! Could you afford the time to become involved in some sort of 'club' activity?

Alec.
 
I will look into clubs. He would do well at things that involve not being touched by strangers. He can tolerate them at a distance but I won't be letting him off a lead just incase!

When he is in attack mode I usually ask him to sit calmly until the offending dog/person has passed. Most of the time this works but sometimes his reactions are over the top and I can't snap him out of it. I have also tried the treating thing but that's a waste of time to be honest.

He is a big strong dog, I have a baby plus another two dogs so I need him to at least sit calmly and tolerate people...he does not have to neccessarily like strangers but is he managed to not shout and scream at them it would be an improvement.
 
Laura2408 said:
I will look into clubs. He would do well at things that involve not being touched by strangers. He can tolerate them at a distance but I won't be letting him off a lead just incase!

When he is in attack mode I usually ask him to sit calmly until the offending dog/person has passed. Most of the time this works but sometimes his reactions are over the top and I can't snap him out of it. I have also tried the treating thing but that's a waste of time to be honest.

He is a big strong dog, I have a baby plus another two dogs so I need him to at least sit calmly and tolerate people...he does not have to neccessarily like strangers but is he managed to not shout and scream at them it would be an improvement.
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I wouldn't ask or expect him to sit when he's being aggressive and I certainly wouldn't offer treats....you maybe would be better to just keep going and ignore his behaviour if he's on a lead. It sounds like he's been doing this for a while and it's become a habit, you need to try something else.
 
ester said:
Are there any training groups near you that wouldn't cost as much money but have the experience to advise with that sort of dog?

AFAIK collies aren't particularly treat orientated - it just isn't high enough value to them, compared to say a toy.
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My collies defiantly woukd not take treats when training, there reward was either a play with a toy ball or tug toy or to be let loose for sone running but they always focused on me.

What is he like witb you round the house?
 
Around the house he is generally well behaved, quite relaxed and enjoys cuddling on the sofa. Sometimes plays with the other dogs and cats. He will do most things I ask.

However when people come round its a different story and I usually have to shut him out as he barks and growls and drives me mad!
 
Laura2408 said:
Around the house he is generally well behaved, quite relaxed and enjoys cuddling on the sofa. …….. !
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There in, quite possibly, is the very start of your problem. Perhaps there are those dogs which won't make the most of what the average dog would see as a weakness on the part of the pack leader. There are however, those dogs and possibly yours is one, who being of a dominant nature, would put you in your place, or at least see himself as your equal. Leadership isn't about equality, it's about control, obedience and discipline. With such a 'strong' dog you won't achieve any of the previous points, following cuddles on the sofa.

If you were to have a bed for your dog, and he doesn't share your 'reclining' moments with you, you may well have taught him that he has his place, just as you have yours. Your 'old fashioned' trainer told you that your dog was taking the mick. Reading more, your OFT may have a point, but only because you're allowing the dog too great a sense of self determination.

It's all dog-and-you dependent, and without witnessing how you are with him, it isn't possible to offer anything other than guide lines which will be of use.

Alec.
 
Yes I would agree- DONT let him on the sofa- he might think himself your equal.On the floor,on HIS bed, but definately NOT on your bed or the sofa!
In IPO you learn to do heelwork between and around a group of 4 people,and halt -dog in sit- next to one of them. The people dont touch the dog, but he has to ignore them while you are working him. Thatd be good for him.
 
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