Prelim Dressage - and outlines

[blond1]

Hi

Took my daughter today to an unaffiliated RC dressage competition. They won the first class (walk/trot) only and then came last in Prelim 18 with a row of 5's and only two 6's for her score (halt and free walk on a long rein). The judges were different and I watched and thought the pony was going forward, tracking up, bending correctly and nearly but just an inch away from dropping into an outline in both tests. The WT judge's comments were encouraging and commented on their accuracy and willingness of the pony.

However, the Prelim judge commented that the marks would only improve when the pony can work in an outline. The other marks did seem to be based on whether the horse was in an outline (false or otherwise) and not if they were working from the back end.

So... I always thought that prelim marks weren't dependent on an outline. Am I wrong as daughter and I don't feel comfortable watching some of the other competitors forcing their horses into an outline and don't want to ask this of our pony?

At the end of the day I was pleased with both their tests and feel that the Prelim judge should widen her marking criteria to include accuracy and forwardness of the horse and to also include at least one encouraging remark on the test sheet!

Sadly I forgot to take my phone so haven't got any photos or videos. Will remember it next time.

So has anyone else experienced this and should we just put it down to a bad experience?

 

[Pigeon]

Unfortunately yes, I've seen very curled up horses win consistently at prelim. I'm still completely perplexed about why horses are punished for being 45 degrees in front of the vertical, but not for being 45 degrees behind it, when surely the first would be preferable!

Mine prefers to work slightly above the vertical (like in sig) and I know it's not ideal, but at prelim level I would prefer him to go like that than with his ears back and his chin on his chest!

 

[FabioandFreddy]

i think that the scoring sounds quite harsh. I was under the impression that at Prelim you don't have to be in a consistent outline, but working forwards and from behind. I know some of Fab's early tests were very 'camel' like and he still usually got 6's just with the comment of 'could be rounder'.

 

[SO1]

My pony does not go in an consistant outline and he has won at prelim level and is normally always placed he is normally obedient and has a nice paces, however to get higher marks he needs to work in a more consistant outline as he has achieved the basics and that is what we get on nearly every scoresheet now. If you look at the scoresheet the collectives do include working in an consistant outline.

There are a lot of people who compete at prelim who do have horses that work in an outline and if they are accurate etc as well then they will get the higher marks such as the 7 and 8's.

 

[milliepops]

Hi

Took my daughter today to an unaffiliated RC dressage competition. They won the first class (walk/trot) only and then came last in Prelim 18 with a row of 5's and only two 6's for her score

Firstly, don't be too disheartened. when you look at the score sheets, the judge has marked most movements as 'sufficient' then, with a few that were 'satisfactory' - that's a good consistent start

However, the Prelim judge commented that the marks would only improve when the pony can work in an outline. The other marks did seem to be based on whether the horse was in an outline (false or otherwise) and not if they were working from the back end.

So... I always thought that prelim marks weren't dependent on an outline. Am I wrong as daughter and I don't feel comfortable watching some of the other competitors forcing their horses into an outline and don't want to ask this of our pony?

I think you have to forget about the other competitors to some extent and concentrate on the comments you got With unaff dressage you do sometimes find the judging can be a little inconsistent but from what you've said I think it's probably a fair comment.

Being in an 'outline' (not a forced one obv) is a sign of acceptance of the contact and working through & over the topline, a key part of the scales of training. So by awarding a 5 the judge has given as much as she can from the 10 available - rewarding accuracy, forwardness, straightness, rhythm for example, but feels that the suppleness, contact and impulsion needed for a 7 or 8, say, aren't truly shown because the pony is above the bit.

It's not a negative comment, although I'm sure it feels like it, and it's a shame it didn't come across in a more positive way. But Prelim tests are the judged according to the same principles as Grand Prix Each of the basic elements just gets more refined as you climb the levels

Well done to daughter and pony on the W&T test though, hope that was a good confidence booster

 

[philamena]

Don't get me started - I've written for judges in RC prelim classes who've let horses win when their back ends are in the next county, they're wiggling like a snake and the rhythm's all over the place... but their nose is tucked in so it's all ok I've also seen 4-y-o horses marked down in Prelim 1 for 'lacking cadence' ??!

Don't be disheartened: stick with what you know is right, and I always aim to have my own objectives to achieve from each test so that I can judge myself as much as being judged by the judge, if you know what I mean. So maybe it's forwardness or straightness or whatever I felt needed working on from last time or from what we're working on at home. This helps to make it more about your own progress and less about the whims of a judge

 

[YasandCrystal]

Judging sounds very harsh and yes you are correct - Prelim is entry level and the critique should be most encouraging and the horse only expected to be working towards working in a consistent outline and softening in the contact. Accuracy, forwardness and an even rhythm should all be counted highly. This is the trouble with dressage - different judges different scores, but it shouldn't be as they have very clear training and guidelines on scoring at the different levels.

 

[Lolo]

I think milliepops' explanation is really good.

Another thing to bear in mind is if a different horse went in and did a test which was forwards and accurate, but also soft and working into an outline, and they gave that horse 7s they don't really have much choice after that but to go lower for those not on the same level...

 

[milliepops]

I think milliepops' explanation is really good.

Another thing to bear in mind is if a different horse went in and did a test which was forwards and accurate, but also soft and working into an outline, and they gave that horse 7s they don't really have much choice after that but to go lower for those not on the same level...

^^ I was just popping back in to say this

I'm finding this thread really interesting I'm not wanting to take anything away from OP or her daughter - when I was a kid I had no clue nor interest in dressage because it was a complete mystery to me, so she's already ahead of me in that respect

But what I'm curious about is at what level would people expect to have the horse softening into a good contact? (forgetting about what other people may be doing to their horses to get it in 'outline' for now...)
Bearing in mind many people say that affiliated judging is harsher when they make the move to BD. Shouldn't unaff competitions be applying the same criteria so there isn't a jump upwards? Esp RC, which - I thought - had plenty of stiff competition at the areas etc?

I don't know, without seeing the test or knowing more about it it's hard to comment on this actual situation, and it's a shame that marks on the score sheets aren't put in an encouraging way but all the same - it's the same sport with the same criteria whether it's a local unaff prelim or the BD nationals at the same level