Problem Leading in From Field

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Puzzles

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Ok, so the horse I share is usually a nightmare to lead in from the field, a behavioural problem that arose very suddenly when he came back from an awful loan home about 2 years but that noone's ever managed to sort out.
He hasn't ridden very often as I've been at uni, so he lives out with 4 other horses (one of which is his full brother who he has a very close bond with) in a 3.5 acre paddock and has been ridden 1-2 times a week. He is an incredibly talented and intelligent yet naughty horse: not nasty, but he's a 'why should I?' rather than 'why not!' thinker. He's a Haffy x NF so incredibly strong too, and he's learned to use his strength to get out of things and is generally quite bargey and rude.

Basically, he is fine to catch (he wears a headcollar as his sweet-itch rug needs to be attached to it, which helps) but on the way down to the yard he tends to stop frequently & it takes considerable time & effort to get him moving forward. He is strongly motivated by food but this exacerbates his bargey/rude behaviour so ideally I'd like to be able to use other methods of rewarding good behaviour, but these seem to be ineffective. This is what usually happens: when he plants I calmly encourage him to move forwards & take a whip to tap him with to encourage this. When he does move forward - even a step - I've rewarded with a treat. This method has still taken considerable time but it has been the most effective, if not entirely successful. It is not possible to lead him down with another horse & I think this makes his behaviour worse when he is lead down alone as he becomes dependent on the other horses. Knowing him well, I believe this is a combination of nappiness & mild separation anxiety.

However the main problem is not the stopping but that, once lead through the gate, he whips round (always to the left) and canters up & down the fence before bargeing through the gate (he's broken it so it comes undone quite easily, which at least means he's less likely to injure himself) and gallops across the field back to his companions. When he does this I have no choice but to let him go, but I always calmly go straight up and lead him straight back down again. On a good day he'll just walk obligingly beside me without even stopping, but on a bad day he'll do this repeatedly. Last night it went on for 2 hours & ended up with him either galloping round the field & walking off when I tried to catch him, to just turning away & standing there looking at me, not even grazing but waiting for me to catch up with him & take the leadrope again. When he tried to walk/trot away from me, I just followed calmly but consistently to teach him that he can't avoid being brought in by running off.

During last night's episode, when he tried to turn to the left again and evade me, I quickly turned him into a circle in that direction & made him yield his quarters over for a couple of circles to make him uncomfortable to evade to the left, with mixed success) I ran out of time, so to end on a good note I led him in with his brother & just tied them up to the fence by the gate, gave him a sponge down & his lick (which he loves) & turned him straight back out again. Quite simply, he thought he was going to be ridden, didn't want to be ridden as he was hot & bothered & wanted to graze with his fieldmates. If only I could've explained that I only intended to groom him & chuck him back out again! When he wants to be ridden, he's much more willing to be brought in.

If I'm honest, I do struggle to control my temper. However this horse is not one who will be beaten into submission - this greatly worsens his behaviour. However you do need to be very firm and black and white: give him an inch & he'll take a mile. It's like he's constantly testing you. He's not an unhappy horse but he is very playful - he 'paws' for treats, picks up and chews whips and buckets, and has even ripped the boots off his legs that I've just put on. His body language is not fearful or anxious - his tail is up and he has a prance in his step! Which is maddening but I appreciate that the respect must be mutual and he cannot be dominated or forced into anything, which is why I try to keep up with him mentally & not give up or give in but remain as fair, consistent, patient & clear as possible & always reward him for good behaviour, and making the 'wrong' behaviour uncomfortable (i.e. he gets tired of galloping back to the field & being followed around it without getting rid of me).

I realise the contributing factors of this behavioural problem: inconsistent riders and training due to lack of time & being ridden by 2 and sometimes 3 different people, separation anxiety, that he's not ridden very often or often brought in just for a feed or groom, and when brought in alone he's leaving his pair bond behind. However he loves his rides (he is usually just hacked out and usually in company) when he is brought in.

It's like looking after a Jekyll & Hyde character. The thing is, I have a trial for a job where I can take him with me - I love him to bits but his behaviour really dents my self confidence & I'm worried it'll get us thrown off the yard. I don't know what to do - if anyone has any tips, similar experiences or advice, I'd be so grateful!

Ironically I want to work in equine behaviour/training! But this pony has floored me & I don't know if I'm actually dealing with his behaviour in the most effective way as it's difficult to be objective about it & not take it personally?

Also, apologies for the essay, I seem to be unable to put anything into a nutshell :o
 
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If he's your share horse and doing this constantly, could you not speak to the owner about getting a specialist out to help, where all the people that bring him in are there, so he's handled consistently and correctly? You say this is in a headcollar, could you change it to a dually/ be nice headcollar/ bridle to give you more control? I hope you get it sorted and that he starts to behave! Good luck whatever you decide :-)
 
Always lead him in a bridle (or have rope round his nose) with a lunge line attached. Wear a hat and gloves. If he tried to spin you will have more control with him being in a bridle and the lunge line will make a huge difference to you being able to get him back to you.

He's got to realise that getting away from you is not going to happen.
 
Good advice above and I would really speak to the owner about getting some professional perspective. Also re rewarding - the reward for stepping forwards should be that you release the pressure/stop using the stick, so you make it comfortable for him to walk nicely beside you, but uncomfortable to refuse to move. I would also only feed him when you get him into the yard, so that that is the place where he gets to gratify his greedy urges ;)
I would also lead with a long line so that you have enough line to play with without letting him get away from you if that makes sense.
 
You sound as though you are very sensible/capable and have put a lot of thought into this situation.. That's a good start :)

Horse see things quite simply - if his behaviour achieves the desired outcome then he will continue with it it as it works quite nicely for him - so you must deny him his desired outcome in order for him to quit his bully boy tactics.
You will not hold him in a head collar if he really wants to go - use a chifney or bridle to give yourself a chance. Is there somewhere you can tie him up as soon as you get through the gate before you turn round to close it (if the other horses are still at a reasonable distance)?

Look at your bringing in process in small sections and give yourself the best chance of succeeding at every step - if that means using a chifney and enlisting a friend to help every day for a week then you need to do it - don't put yourself in a situation where he is likely to succeed, it is pointless just repeating a process that reinforces his behaviour.

You can do this - develop a plan, gather your reserves of determination and then Go!!
 
Mine went through a phase of shooting forwards and b*ggering off down the hill - we solved it with lunge line, gloves and a dually halter. Had that not worked a bridle would have been my next step - I keep the dually at the field these days and just put it on when he's looking a little 'fresh' and he knows its not even worth trying!
 
OP, it sounds as if you have hugely over-thought this... which I suppose is not necessarily a bad thing if you want to be an animal behaviourist! ;) ;)
Bluntly, it sounds as if he is a rude bargey git of a horse, and is totally taking the mickey out of you. If he always does X at a certain place, you HAVE to be smart and have kit and/or technique in place so that you can prevent him from doing it - every time, quickly, easily and safely.
A bridle if he will respect one, but I'd do everything I could to borrow one of those headcollars where the bit that goes the whole way round the nose is a smooth solid metal loop (this one: http://www.katenegus.com/shop/product/stud-ring/). I paid a lot less than that for mine, cured the very rude gelding it was for, then sold it on for the same amount!) They respect it, you can rattle it a bit to get their respect (they tend to say "YES SIR!" after 2 seconds of that). Otherwise a bridle in with a bit that you KNOW he respects and you can hold him (from the floor) in.

You say certain things that make me boggle.
Puzzles said:
Quite simply, he thought he was going to be ridden, didn't want to be ridden as he was hot & bothered & wanted to graze with his fieldmates. If only I could've explained that I only intended to groom him & chuck him back out again! When he wants to be ridden, he's much more willing to be brought in."
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Sorry but this is a nutty way of thinking and gives him too much leeway! It doesn't matter what he wants/thinks... well, we all know that anyway! He's a herd animal, so he wants to stay with his mates - most of them do!
BUT good training means he'll acquiesce in going with you, do what you want for a few hours a week (FGS!) and then be put back out with his mates...
It's not up to him to be tricky or not, whether it's for a ride, or a groom, or the farrier, or anything else... and he won't be thinking like that anyway! He'll just respond to the circumstances in the moment.

If it happens again I wouldn't follow him around (other than to take the rope off his headcollar, for safety, if it's still on), since imho all that does it annoy them. It doesn't teach them anything at all.

He needs to be MADE to respect you, and anyone else unfortunate enough to need to lead him anywhere! You can do this with a piece of kit like the controller headcollar above, or with smart thinking and acting (good old elbow to front of chest, if you do it fast enough and with your whole bodyweight, can work wonders!) You HAVE to be the leader, not an occasional annoyance to him!

Puzzles said:
His body language is not fearful or anxious - his tail is up and he has a prance in his step! Which is maddening but I appreciate that the respect must be mutual and he cannot be dominated or forced into anything, which is why I try to keep up with him mentally & not give up or give in but remain as fair, consistent, patient & clear as possible & always reward him for good behaviour, and making the 'wrong' behaviour uncomfortable (i.e. he gets tired of galloping back to the field & being followed around it without getting rid of me).
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That is not 'the wrong behaviour' - can't you see that? It's just him being a horse! Eventually he's bored/nice enough to let you catch him and take the rope off... but that isn't anything to do with wrong or right behaviour! It really isn't you 'winning'... if you took him back every time and led him around and controlled him perfectly at the dodgy spot, then praised him a lot, that would be a victory.

Puzzles said:
you do need to be very firm and black and white: give him an inch & he'll take a mile.
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Yes, absolutely! It sounds as if he is!

When you are leading him and he halts, I'd let him think about it, then ask him to walk on again. One of mine, who is VERY herd-motivated, will halt for 10-20 secs occasionally, then just walks in calmly... I do not regard this as me being weak, because I 'win' without any fight at all :)
I wouldn't tap him with a whip - that is just annoying. If I tapped my mare she'd fight it - so, what's the point? Just be patient. Often asking them to walk slightly to the left or right (zig-zag line) from the straight line you were aiming for will get the feet moving again. I wouldn't give a treat just for that, just a word of praise. He OUGHT to walk where you want him to!

As for taking him with you to a job - good idea if the people are going to be willing to show you how to handle him. But it won't do you much credit if he's behaving like this, obviously...

Good Luck, he sounds as if he knows his own strength and these are always difficult, but you CAN prevail and convince him that you are the benevolent leader!
 
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OP - I have this headcollar, which is a cheaper alternative to one Kerilli posted http://www.eskadron.org.uk/head-collars/safety-head-collars/ and I used it to help me lead my gelding who also was spinning to get back to his mates and over powering me.Now he leads in away from his mates just fine and I am back to a normal headcollar.

Kerilli has given you lots of good advice to follow, I used the elbow technique with the headcollar too, works a treat.
 
Hi
Some very good advice already posted on here. I had similar issues with my horse related to KS pain which then became learned behaviour. Very tricky to move forwards but with a lot of time, patience and help my horse is now fabulous to handle on the ground. My horse used to go straight throught a chiffney (partly because I was scared to use it properly!) and didn't give a toss about running through his bridle, in fact mouth pressure used to make him rear so he could spin through his shoulder and leg it.

What worked was the Dually, I learned to put it on properly and use it properly. Try to read the Perfect Manners book by Kelly Marks, it has some good ideas and get someone who is good at groundwork training to help you. Also, if you can, learn to long rein properly. All of the above helped me get a handle on my horse who does now know his own strength sadly, but would prefer to be in a herd with me as leader and we have a great bond so problem now solved.

By the way, whenever my horse comes into his stable, he has a routine and gets his feed & haynet. We make his stable a nice place to be so that coming in a treat for him.

Hope some of that helps, good luck, you can lern a lot from tackling this the right way.
 
Thank you for all the advice & support! I'll be re-reading it all avidly! Unfortunately he's still done this when lead with a bridle on & even when fully tacked up, and dangling reins are more risky than a dangling leadrope. :/
You're right, his behaviour may be explainable but it is not acceptable! I think a Dually or something similar might be useful (might see how much they are...) or the rope over the nose thing with the headcollar. I'll be honest, I'm sick of his owner's perspective of 'he's being a **** so that means you can beat him up' effectively. Because getting physical does make him fight more & it makes me actually feel weaker, plus it doesn't work anyway. I need to get his respect, which I have never been so unsuccessful with getting from a horse. Feeling completely at a loss with this horse!!
 
Honestly? You have been given lots of good advice but nothing is going to be as good as having someone experienced and determined to sort it, right there, with him.
Unfortunately some really tanky horses (who know their own strength and how to use it) DO have to be shown that you are not just a puny human to be pushed/dragged around till you let go. He sounds this sort. If you truly can't hold him in a bridle then you don't have a bit in that he respects, or you simply aren't using it correctly.
Tbh I probably would go a bit postal on this horse (not beat him up, but impress him somehow) so that he learnt that he is NOT allowed to do what he thinks is fine. Some horses have gone way past the point where you can be lovely to them all the time, and need rocking back on their hocks, mentally and physically. You won't get respect from a really tanky/arrogant horse any other way imho.
 
Lead in a bridle, without the reins, with a lunge line through one bit ring to the other. I ALWAYS use that set up if I think mine are going to be silly (!)

Kerrilli is right though, get someone experiance to help you, and to work with you with him to get it fixed.

If I have something particularly bolshy to lead, my Dad takes them, and sorts them out pretty quickly, but it is alway swith a bridle, lunge line and gloves!
 
Echo CrazyMare - lunge line, hat, gloves and dually. Used correctly I don't think there are many horses that could escape this set up. I am 5'5 and held my very naughty 17hh when he went through a phase of bogging off down a very steep hill! He now just needs the dually on windy days, don't need the lunge etc as he doesn't even bother trying to get away.
 
Thanks again for all the advice - last night I led him down in his bridle with the lunge rein (and with the help of a rustling treat bag) - he went to turn but the extra length of rein gave me more leverage & control & I was more 'get on with it' - he did stop a couple of times but I think he realised I had more control & that he wouldn't get away with running off, & then when we came down the bottom I rewarded him - & he was actually less bargey. So hopefully this way will continue to work & prevent him from being a tw*t before we end up in a fight! If he somehow learns to do it consistently with the bridle (I did expect him to do it anyway but thankfully he didn't). then I may have to resort to other methods, but hopefully it'll help. I definitely think I need to be bossier - not necessarily nasty (unless he is being particularly awful/dangerous) but quick to correct him & just firmer & more assertive with him.
 
Puzzles said:
I definitely think I need to be bossier - not necessarily nasty (unless he is being particularly awful/dangerous) but quick to correct him & just firmer & more assertive with him.
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It's really not a case of being "nasty" or even "bossy". It's about being consistent. If you want him to do something (or not do something, although that is actually a different conversation because you can't make a horse "do nothing" so you have to think of it as replacing one behaviour with another) then you have to be clear to him about what you want and how he can best get that done. If you make different rules depending on how you feel, how you think he feels, etc then it's just confusing for him and he doesn't see why he has to accommodate your wishes.

Unfortunately the same thing goes for being able to control him. He's been taught that if he doesn't want to be led there is nothing stopping him from NOT being lead - he is free to stop, pull away etc. as and when it suits him. Ideally it should be "hard wired" into a horse as a youngster that leading is not an optional activity but if that doesn't happen or it fails then you have to solve the situation and that means being able to hold on to the horse whatever happens.

I'm personally not a fan of leading horses in bridles as I think mouths are precious things both literally, and in the fact that they are a primary means of communication with ridden horses and should therefore not be a point of strength, but hey ho, sometimes needs must and certainly chiffneys and bridles are the most common "next step" here. Used sensitively they can be very effective with minimal risk.
 
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