Problem Lusitano

[Bobby1987]

Hello, I have an 11 year old 17hh Lusitano/KWPN which I bought for £1 three years ago. I took him on to save him from being a "pillar-to-post" statistic, as his start in life hadn't been a good one - he wasn't backed or properly handled until he was 6 years old, which resulted in a large, boisterous animal which isn't easy to handle.

I've tried my utter best with this horse, but his lack of training/handling as a youngster has made him into quite an unruly character on the ground. He's nice enough when ridden, but the prelude to riding (tying up in stable, brushing, tacking up etc) is stressful and unpleasant. He's a lovely soul, we have moments of clarity and peace, but sadly his mannerisms are those of a bull. I am the only person I trust to deal with him, I fear he would unknowingly hurt anyone else as he will listen to me, but it's under duress and always looks like he's about to happily explode at any moment.

I say happily, because the horse hasn't a mean streak in it's body - he's anxious and stressed, but wouldn't bike, kick, look sideways at me - but will pin me against walls & fences and stand on me to get out of his stable in the morning, or field in the evening.

I've tried calming powders, cookies, liquid titanium hoods, sedation to clip, training halters, stern talks, chats over breakfast, long summer hacks, regular work - everything.

This morning he couldn't wait after he'd eaten his breakfast for his compadres to finish theirs, and even although he had a full net of haylage, reared in stable, stood on, then pinned against a wall; the only person in this world that has any time for him (me).

I have three other horses, one 24 year old ex racer and two 4-year olds going out eventing next year. I am no good to any of these horses if I'm injured by my beautiful grey charger, who, at no fault of his own, is becoming more and more dangerous as time goes on.

I don't want to "send him away" to anyone as he pushes buttons in people like no other equine I've ever known; I just wondered if anyone out there has been in the same boat as we are in - and what they did about it.

FYI: he's on haylage ad lib, daily turnout in 5 acres (10 hours), a maintenance diet with no fizz to speak of and gets nothing but grass in the summer.

He's on a yard of 4, and I take very stern safety precautions when handling him.

Thank you in advance x

 

[shortstuff99]

Is he gelded? Did he come from Spain/Portugal or the UK? What his routine and turnout like?

 

[Bobby1987]

Is he gelded? Did he come from Spain/Portugal or the UK? What his routine and turnout like?

Hello, yes he was gelded when I took charge of him and he came from the UK (Scotland, I am also Scotland).

He's in from field at 5pm, brushed, rugs changed, fed - night night.
Fed again at 6.45am, rugs changed, mucked out, hay until others are finished and ready to turn out then out at 7.10am. Sometimes left in (with others until able to be ridden, sometimes brought in at 3pm to be ridden). This is his daily routine, never changes until the summer when he's out 24/7 and brought in once a day in the evening for brushing/excerise/training etc.

 

[TheMule]

If you enjoy riding the horse then I would stop all but essential handling- don’t go in the stable with him, ever- teach him to stand at the back of the stable when you go in to catch him and bring out to tie up. All rugs/ grooming/ tacking up etc to take place outside the stable. My family have lusitanos and this is how they deal with the stallions- their stable is their place, tied up outside is yours.

 

[Caol Ila]

Does the horse know that he's not supposed to run people over? Have you brought in any trainers who specialize in groundwork? One of my horses was not handled or ridden until he was 7/8 years old, and he has the best ground manners of any horse I've ever owned. Can't claim any credit for that. He was worked by pros when gentled/started, who taught him to be a gentleman.

There are some people around Scotland who do this.

 

[Bobby1987]

If you enjoy riding the horse then I would stop all but essential handling- don’t go in the stable with him, ever- teach him to stand at the back of the stable when you go in to catch him and bring out to tie up. All rugs/ grooming/ tacking up etc to take place outside the stable. My family have lusitanos and this is how they deal with the stallions- their stable is their place, tied up outside is yours.

This is great advice, thank you. Unfortunately tying up outside has been tried, and tried and tried. The problem the horse has is that he was handled (or lack of handled) by a complete novice from the start, and sadly has developed habits that would never normally be tolerated by owner/rider/trainer. I can only imagine that your families stallions have been handled correctly from a young age, by experts.

 

[Bobby1987]

Does the horse know that he's not supposed to run people over? Have you brought in any trainers who specialize in groundwork? One of my horses was not handled or ridden until he was 7/8 years old, and he has the best ground manners of any horse I've ever owned. Can't claim any credit for that. He was worked by pros when gentled/started, who taught him to be a gentleman.

There are some people around Scotland who do this.

I'm sure he knows now that he isn't supposed to run people over, but when his mind blows - he's gone.
He was backed at 6 years old, but from what I know, was not handled prior to that and bearing in mind that he is a Luso, a very clever, intelligent breed. He's gotten his way most of his life, until he landed with me. He's unboubtably improved since I first took charge of him, but working with him on the ground is not enjoyable in any way, shape or form.

I've just actually spoken to my vet who is going to put me in touch with a behavioural specialist in Edinburgh.

 

[milliepops]

i have a horse that had been completely ruined by previous novice owners, ruined on the ground and under saddle. she thought nothing of barging over the top of anyone, would pull away, trample you, generally difficult in every way, nappy, rears, has separation anxiety so she forgot herself if there was any hint of another horse leaving and so on.
she has turned around to be the absolute sweetest horse to handle who remains anxious but understands the boundaries fully (and they are so natural to me to reinforce that I don't notice it any more).
the main thing with her has been for both of us to learn to keep the adrenalin to an absolute minimum all the time so she can stay *thinking* instead of just acting.

I second getting some skilled help in for this, I had someone come to help me as i had 3 at the time and a full time job and was finding i didn't have enough headspace to dedicate to her every day. The lady i used is local and just has her own brand of horsemanship, very cued into what makes them tick and understanding the individual and teaching them their own ways to cope with what's going on.
we transferred it to ridden work and within limits she's a lovely ride.

I did turn everything in my horsey life around to suit her though. she will always be a challenging horse and I have had to choose yards, transport, routines etc to suit her in order to keep her happy. i do my bit, she does hers, and in return she was a fabulous training partner and we've done stuff i haven't achieved with any other horse. if you want to invest the time and effort i think you will probably turn it around but you might feel that with other more straightforward ones, it's too hard. only you will know that.

 

[Cortez]

He's half Dutch WB, is that right? Sounds like he's just a big, rude horse that gets overexcited and forgets his manners. Not his fault, but a big horse like this needs to behave himself or someone's going to get hurt. I would suggest finding a good trainer to work with (and no, I don't mean someone who'll be rough and try to "sort him out"). Good luck.

 

[Bobby1987]

He's half Dutch WB, is that right? Sounds like he's just a big, rude horse that gets overexcited and forgets his manners. Not his fault, but a big horse like this needs to behave himself or someone's going to get hurt. I would suggest finding a good trainer to work with (and no, I don't mean someone who'll be rough and try to "sort him out"). Good luck.

Yes, half Dutch Warm Blood - cheers, fate...
Thank you; you have a very good undertsanding of what I'm faced with. There are too many who are "rough" and this would not suit him nor I, he'd utterly lose himself and everything we've achieved this far would be lost.

 

[Bobby1987]

i have a horse that had been completely ruined by previous novice owners, ruined on the ground and under saddle. she thought nothing of barging over the top of anyone, would pull away, trample you, generally difficult in every way, nappy, rears, has separation anxiety so she forgot herself if there was any hint of another horse leaving and so on.
she has turned around to be the absolute sweetest horse to handle who remains anxious but understands the boundaries fully (and they are so natural to me to reinforce that I don't notice it any more).
the main thing with her has been for both of us to learn to keep the adrenalin to an absolute minimum all the time so she can stay *thinking* instead of just acting.

I second getting some skilled help in for this, I had someone come to help me as i had 3 at the time and a full time job and was finding i didn't have enough headspace to dedicate to her every day. The lady i used is local and just has her own brand of horsemanship, very cued into what makes them tick and understanding the individual and teaching them their own ways to cope with what's going on.
we transferred it to ridden work and within limits she's a lovely ride.

I did turn everything in my horsey life around to suit her though. she will always be a challenging horse and I have had to choose yards, transport, routines etc to suit her in order to keep her happy. i do my bit, she does hers, and in return she was a fabulous training partner and we've done stuff i haven't achieved with any other horse. if you want to invest the time and effort i think you will probably turn it around but you might feel that with other more straightforward ones, it's too hard. only you will know that.

Parts of what you've described are so similar to my boy. At times, he hangs his head in my arms as though he's apologising for what he can't control, but when he goes - he's like a different animal.

I also have a full time job, a holiday cottage business, a primary age son and 26 other animals to consider. But he remains a priority.

I do want to change this and I will seek out the right person to help us, but it's finding that person that may take some time as I do not want a quick fix, it simply won't work. I need someone to see first hand; what I've achieved, and how quickly the horse can lose it.

Thank you for your reply, this has given me some hope! x

 

[LEC]

You need to spend some money on the right person coming to help you. I got into the whole groundwork thing through a very tricky PRE x TB who completely changed the way I do things and I am experienced with horses! This then was a huge help with his sister who despite being with the same owner all her life is a big neurotic mess even though her siblings are all fine. The are just big athletic horses who panic when adrenaline hits them.

You need to teach them to manage their adrenaline and that takes patience and managing to control them safely. I am lucky as have an outstanding friend for helping me with this stuff backed up by a keen interest in Warwick Schiller and Tristan Tucker. Even now my big grey is very carefully managed around her anxieties to make life simpler for her because she is sometimes a nightmare on the ground but amazing under saddle.

There are actually plenty of people in this field now and you could even go down the behaviourist route as well. Just depends where you are.

 

[tristar]

i read as far as `will walk over you to get out of stable, and rubs you up the wall`

and thought a ha, thats where i would start, if it took a bridle and two people, one each side holding him, i would walk into stable and not allow him to walk forwards, when he can do this, i would walk into stable make him wait 5 seconds the have him led out, when he can do this i would teach him to walk back 3 steps when i enter the stable, then wait a few moments then lead him out.

now i`ve just done this with a badly handled wild thing and its made life so pleasant, and the beauty is i get to praise him and do not generate any nervy vibes to make him worse, just loads of jolly hockey sticks good man, lovely boy stuff so he picks up that this is the way to go.

the crushing up the wall thing involved a fair bit of wrestling, i did this outside the stable tied up, a big part is not showing fear and being on the ball, because you know they are going to do it, so i had an obstacle along the wall where said crushing may take place, so when he tried to get me up the wall the obstacle, which was a large wooden saddle stand provided protection and allowed me teach him to move over the hind quarters, end of problem.


the horse has no self control, he needs to learn the most basic things, one of which is a little patience, all the time one reads about horses who have never been taught the most basic training, the simplest things, its blxxdy amazing

 

[shortstuff99]

You need to spend some money on the right person coming to help you. I got into the whole groundwork thing through a very tricky PRE x TB who completely changed the way I do things and I am experienced with horses! This then was a huge help with his sister who despite being with the same owner all her life is a big neurotic mess even though her siblings are all fine. The are just big athletic horses who panic when adrenaline hits them.

You need to teach them to manage their adrenaline and that takes patience and managing to control them safely. I am lucky as have an outstanding friend for helping me with this stuff backed up by a keen interest in Warwick Schiller and Tristan Tucker. Even now my big grey is very carefully managed around her anxieties to make life simpler for her because she is sometimes a nightmare on the ground but amazing under saddle.

There are actually plenty of people in this field now and you could even go down the behaviourist route as well. Just depends where you are.

I wonder if they are related to my PRE x TB, she could have become very tricky if not handled correctly. I had to do a lot of ground work with her in her early years. She is still tricky (although very safe) to ride.

 

[BronsonNutter]

If he's an intelligent soul, clicker training may work well. If you are being referred to Gemma Pearson at Edinburgh then I believe this is something she helps with.
We have a horse on our books at work (vets) who was nigh on uninjectable. She is a big girl, and although not nasty in any way (never kicks/bites) she will throw herself around and go upwards. Once she'd blow that was it, you lost her completely. The owners began clicker training and it has worked wonders, just seems to 'bring her back down to earth' when she begins losing the plot.

 

[Parrotperson]

I know you said you'd tried callers etc but have you tried this https://equifeast-shop.com/horse-supplements/horse-calmers/

It's a bit of a pain to feed but certainly worked with my gelding. Might be worth a try?

 

[Bobby1987]

If he's an intelligent soul, clicker training may work well. If you are being referred to Gemma Pearson at Edinburgh then I believe this is something she helps with.
We have a horse on our books at work (vets) who was nigh on uninjectable. She is a big girl, and although not nasty in any way (never kicks/bites) she will throw herself around and go upwards. Once she'd blow that was it, you lost her completely. The owners began clicker training and it has worked wonders, just seems to 'bring her back down to earth' when she begins losing the plot.

Gemma Pearson from the Royal Dick in Edinburgh was the very person he was referred to. She came down and introduced us to clicker training and now, 5 weeks later I have a very different horse. He sounds exactly like the horse above (on your books), never kicks or bites but can be very volatile when tied up in or out of the stable. I’d regard him as a bit of a gent now, still anxious about certain things but what Gemma has shown me is life-changing. He’s also been prescribed 140mg of serotonin daily; which has really helped control his anxiety levels as Gemma described him as on high-alert all the time, and his poor brain and body never got a chance to relax.
Thank you for all the replies and advice, but mainly thanks to my vets in Lockerbie for referring me to the amazing Gemma Pearson. X

 

[MissTyc]

Thanks for coming back with an update! So many newer posters don't bother, but this is a great update and I am really pleased you found a positive way forward with your horse!

 

[stangs]

Great news! He’s a lucky boy to have had such a caring owner, and he looks like an absolute unicorn.

Never heard of a serotonin prescriptions with horses before, is it in a powder to add to feed?

 

[Bobby1987]

Thank you; I’ve had a really difficult time with this boy and never came across anything like him. I appreciated all the advice, but he did need professional help from someone who’d worked with horses like him before.
I wanted to update with good news, so waited until I began to see definitive results. X

 

[Bobby1987]

Great news! He’s a lucky boy to have had such a caring owner, and he looks like an absolute unicorn.

Never heard of a serotonin prescriptions with horses before, is it in a powder to add to feed?

Yes, in the human 40mg form (Fluoxetine- used as an anti-depressant) and I simply empty the caplets into his feeds x

 

[CanteringCarrot]

Really great update. I've been hearing a bit here and there about human anti-depressants being used on horses with mostly promising results.

 

[ycbm]

Never heard of a serotonin prescriptions with horses before, is it in a powder to add to feed?

Yes, in the human 40mg form (Fluoxetine- used as an anti-depressant) and I simply empty the caplets into his feeds x

Strictly speaking, it's not serotonin, it's a Selective Serotonin Uptake Inhibitor, an SSRI. It stops his brain removing serotonin, a feel good chemical, so he ends up with more of it sloshing round his brain.

I've had a cat respond well to an SSRI in a stressful situation, I'm glad it's helping your boy.
.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

Strictly speaking, it's not serotonin, it's a Selective Serotonin Uptake Inhibitor, an SSRI. It stops his brain removing serotonin, a feel good chemical, so he ends up with more of it sloshing round his brain.

I've had a cat respond well to an SSRI in a stressful situation, I'm glad it's helping your boy.
.

A cat? Now that's interesting too!

 

[ycbm]

A cat? Now that's interesting too!

They prescribe it for dogs now too.

I used it very short term, I suspect there are now cases where it's being used long term instead of sorting out what's wrong in the pet's environment. It sounds like it's going to be a very good intervention for the OPS's horse. In time it might allow him the "space" to learn better behaviors and come off it.
.

 

[Mule]

Gemma Pearson from the Royal Dick in Edinburgh was the very person he was referred to. She came down and introduced us to clicker training and now, 5 weeks later I have a very different horse. He sounds exactly like the horse above (on your books), never kicks or bites but can be very volatile when tied up in or out of the stable. I’d regard him as a bit of a gent now, still anxious about certain things but what Gemma has shown me is life-changing. He’s also been prescribed 140mg of serotonin daily; which has really helped control his anxiety levels as Gemma described him as on high-alert all the time, and his poor brain and body never got a chance to relax.
Thank you for all the replies and advice, but mainly thanks to my vets in Lockerbie for referring me to the amazing Gemma Pearson. X

Fantastic news
I love a nice grey

 

[AmyMay]

Great update, and what a stunning boy!

 

[Mule]

Great update, and what a stunning boy!

He is isn't he I've a soft spot for greys. All of my horses have had a dash of Irish draught so grey comes with the territory.

 

[BronsonNutter]

Gemma Pearson from the Royal Dick in Edinburgh was the very person he was referred to. She came down and introduced us to clicker training and now, 5 weeks later I have a very different horse. He sounds exactly like the horse above (on your books), never kicks or bites but can be very volatile when tied up in or out of the stable. I’d regard him as a bit of a gent now, still anxious about certain things but what Gemma has shown me is life-changing. He’s also been prescribed 140mg of serotonin daily; which has really helped control his anxiety levels as Gemma described him as on high-alert all the time, and his poor brain and body never got a chance to relax.
Thank you for all the replies and advice, but mainly thanks to my vets in Lockerbie for referring me to the amazing Gemma Pearson. X

That's fantastic news, I'm so glad for you and him that he is learning that he can relax a little. I need to read up on the 'behaviour meds' (for want of a better phrase); it's a very new thing for horses but I think Gemma has done some webinars on it, sounds really interesting and should be really useful for the future!

 

[Pinkvboots]

Great update so glad you managed to find someone to help him.