Kallibear
Well-Known Member
It's RARE to have heart problems and even then it's rarely cause behavioural issues. Pretty much everything else can be assesed by a competant experienced rider.
Problem purchases - on the increase?
- Thread starter NiceChristmasBaubles
- Start date
It's RARE to have heart problems and even then it's rarely cause behavioural issues. Pretty much everything else can be assesed by a competant experienced rider.
Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
It may be rare but it happened to me if I has skipped the vetting I would have been sending my OH hunting on a death trap , and I nearly did as he had passed one three months earlier but he was expensive so I did just in case and boy was I glad I did.
You also can't asses eye issues well with out the equipment you can't flex test ( well you could but the seller would not like it ) .
NiceChristmasBaubles
Well-Known Member
Oh my goodness, I didn't expect to get so many replies. I can't possibly answer them all, but many are of the same lines of thought as me. I worded the title fairly specifically to say 'problem purchases' rather than 'problem sellers/sales'. I really do think the onus is on the buyer and that the old 'caveat emptor' still applies. Maybe I'm just old fashioned. But I have bought 2 in the past 2 years and not had a minutes regret (touch wood!) - I did my homework, checked we weren't overhorsing ourselves (despite one being only 4 at the time of purchase), got references, had full vettings which they sailed through. Maybe I'm just lucky, or maybe those years of experience and being reasonably savvy with sellers pays off. Who knows?
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Kallibear
Well-Known Member
And for that reason I would get a ridden horse vetted but they're not the issue most people mean when they talk about 'problem purchases' in terms of numpty novices overhorsing themselve. A vetting won't stop them being walked all over by their horse!
Flame_
Well-Known Member
We just hear exactly how often it happens now, that's all.
An awful lot of horses are not fit to be on the market by my standards, yet people sell them and people buy them. Its the sellers of these animals I have a problem with.
An awful lot of horses are not fit to be on the market by my standards, yet people sell them and people buy them. Its the sellers of these animals I have a problem with.
Pearlsacarolsinger
Up in the clouds
Several pages, as far as I remember.
TallulahBright
Well-Known Member
There have been various points along the way when I have questioned my wisdom at buying a foal, and as my previous posts will show there have been lots of issues. However, I know my girl, I know the issues she has had and I know the impact of my mistakes. She is a very forgiving girlie in so many respects. I'm glad I'm not buying from someone else - have been to see horses with friends over the last year which simply aren't what they're advertised as. Or are lame. Or who have problems through being pushed too hard too young. Etc.
nicolenlolly
Well-Known Member
In my opinion, people seem to think it has to be perfect from the outset...I think they forget horses have feelings too and maybe need time to settle. I had to be patient with my big boy, I put him out in the field with the ponies and then he went wild, wouldn't let anyone near him for about 3 weeks. It just took sitting out in the field with a few polos every day and letting him get nearer. Then tacking up and taking it all off to get him used to it. He was scared of my 3 year old and yet now follows her round like a puppy. He just needed time but so did I after breaking my back so it suited me to build up that bond first.
This weekend we did a hack together just us, trotted nearly 7 miles - I was a little nervous but I was so chuffed when we got home, gonna go for canter this weekend...might sound lame to all of you super experienced clever horsey people but for me that is like climbing everest!!
This weekend we did a hack together just us, trotted nearly 7 miles - I was a little nervous but I was so chuffed when we got home, gonna go for canter this weekend...might sound lame to all of you super experienced clever horsey people but for me that is like climbing everest!!
Sugar_and_Spice
Well-Known Member
Idiot buyers plays a large part. People buying because its cheaper than lessons. People buying what they can't handle. Lots of first timers should buy old quiet horses, but people don't want those, they don't live as long. They want a 2yr old or a young ex racer, after all its the same price and will last longer.
Incompetent riders also doesn't help. There's nothing wrong with being nervous as long as you buy a suitable horse. The problem is, most don't. The lack of health and safety regulations used to sort that out. People fell off whilst learning. They fell off lots. The nervous ones generally gave up riding! This meant there wasn't nervous riders and handlers letting their horses walk all over them. There was instead mostly gutsy people capable of making an attempt to discipline a horse, and having some degree of success even if they didn't know much about horses.
Perhaps the strangest thing to blame is the invention of eBay and paypal. An extension of the customer service mantra of "the customer is always right". Shops these days will take back items that a customer has damaged just because its not worth the hassle of proving it wasn't a faulty item. Most shops these days are big chains who can afford to take the hit. People are used to demanding and getting.
They're also used to raising paypal disputes against private sellers for "items not as described". Many think this is UK law applying to private sales, which it isn't, rather than a paypal rule.
The old adage of "buyer beware" has been lost. That's not to say all sellers lie, but why would they point out faults? They want to sell the horse and for the highest price. That's business. It's also what people do if they want to get rid of something unsuitable for themselves. Not everyone has the horses best interests at heart. Adverts can state the truth whilst leaving out the negative. Buyers need to learn to ask questions, and to gain the knowledge to know which questions to ask! Instead of thinking they can send back if "not as described" / "miss sold". Which brings me full circle to the top of my post
Incompetent riders also doesn't help. There's nothing wrong with being nervous as long as you buy a suitable horse. The problem is, most don't. The lack of health and safety regulations used to sort that out. People fell off whilst learning. They fell off lots. The nervous ones generally gave up riding! This meant there wasn't nervous riders and handlers letting their horses walk all over them. There was instead mostly gutsy people capable of making an attempt to discipline a horse, and having some degree of success even if they didn't know much about horses.
Perhaps the strangest thing to blame is the invention of eBay and paypal. An extension of the customer service mantra of "the customer is always right". Shops these days will take back items that a customer has damaged just because its not worth the hassle of proving it wasn't a faulty item. Most shops these days are big chains who can afford to take the hit. People are used to demanding and getting.
They're also used to raising paypal disputes against private sellers for "items not as described". Many think this is UK law applying to private sales, which it isn't, rather than a paypal rule.
The old adage of "buyer beware" has been lost. That's not to say all sellers lie, but why would they point out faults? They want to sell the horse and for the highest price. That's business. It's also what people do if they want to get rid of something unsuitable for themselves. Not everyone has the horses best interests at heart. Adverts can state the truth whilst leaving out the negative. Buyers need to learn to ask questions, and to gain the knowledge to know which questions to ask! Instead of thinking they can send back if "not as described" / "miss sold". Which brings me full circle to the top of my post
muckypony
Well-Known Member
I have been thinking this for a while too, after so many people I know have recently bought 'problem horse'; ones that aren't what they are advertised as, going lame shortly after, or mis-behaving badly.
I think there's a lot of reasons for this.... I think that the recession is causing people to buy cheaper horses and not get them vetted because - 'the vetting costs half the price of the horse itself' or 'insurance don't insist on it being vetted if it costs under £1000'. This sadly then often ends up with people having lame horses and they have no comeback.
I also wonder if people aren't having horses vetted because of the recession and it is quite pricey - this then opens avenues for sellers to bute/dope horses and owners have no comeback....
Another factor I think could be the amount of over breeding there currently is. This means that there are too many horses and people just don't have the time to bring them on correctly as youngsters, so they end up being misunderstood and sold frequently, making them so much worse.
You've got to be so careful nowadays as sellers don't often care who the horse is sold to (I know this isn't always the case!) as long as its off their hands. In my opinion, vetting is a necessity for a ridden horse.
Its such a shame as so many horses are misunderstood, but I suppose this is what makes the world go round!
I think there's a lot of reasons for this.... I think that the recession is causing people to buy cheaper horses and not get them vetted because - 'the vetting costs half the price of the horse itself' or 'insurance don't insist on it being vetted if it costs under £1000'. This sadly then often ends up with people having lame horses and they have no comeback.
I also wonder if people aren't having horses vetted because of the recession and it is quite pricey - this then opens avenues for sellers to bute/dope horses and owners have no comeback....
Another factor I think could be the amount of over breeding there currently is. This means that there are too many horses and people just don't have the time to bring them on correctly as youngsters, so they end up being misunderstood and sold frequently, making them so much worse.
You've got to be so careful nowadays as sellers don't often care who the horse is sold to (I know this isn't always the case!) as long as its off their hands. In my opinion, vetting is a necessity for a ridden horse.
Its such a shame as so many horses are misunderstood, but I suppose this is what makes the world go round!
Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
But a fair proportion of problems are pain related and vetting is the best way of avoiding these many horses will grit their teeth and work in a firm roultine and with strong riders but give them a less dominant rider more food less work and all hell breaks loose.
But people buy horses all the time and then seem to have no idea what moving home is like for the horse they give time off to settle in I would never do this its staight into this my yard this is what we do when they come here .
I am also very careful with food until I know the horse even if it's a bit slim I will resist the urge to feed it up until I know it better and am on top of the situation .
Any silly buisness and it's working twice a day and being dragged round from another horse until they settle to it.
But people come to be with issues with new horses and I am gob smacked by the complete lack of planning they show they just buy the horse and set to in a completly unstructured way.
Pearlsacarolsinger
Up in the clouds
Buyers need to learn to ask questions, and to gain the knowledge to know which questions to ask! Instead of thinking they can send back if "not as described" / "miss sold". Which brings me full circle to the top of my post
I shall never forget the OP on a mis-sold horse thread who asked me, rather haughtily I thought, which questions she should have asked, so that the seller didn't realise she was inexperienced, after I had said that I thought the seller could tell her lack of experience.
I thought that illustrated my point rather well
BurntontheoutsideTurkey
Well-Known Member
This, pretty much. Since I've never been an owner all my previous contact with horses was learning on private yards with very competent people (in which situation I started off, luckily, I suppose), or on pro or private yards where I worked for, again, very competent people ... If I behaved like a numpty I was very quickly put straight and had to like it or lump it. I'd never been on a DIY yard until I started sharing when I came back to horses and my eyes almost popped out of my head at some of the green/green combinations that no one turned a hair at. Someone buying young horse like a puppy because they 'just want something to bring on' and refusing to have lessons even when instructed to by the vet (who still can't find anything wrong with the poor animal despite referral to Newmarket - it was just sick of being ridden in a death grip by new owner when only broken three months, and wanted to put its head down
). That kind of behaviour smacks of amazing arrogance, tbh.
muckypony
Well-Known Member
I forgot to add..
I think there is also a huge increase in how many people have their horses on full/part livery. I don't think this allows horse and rider to bond very well. I remember spending hours skipping my pony out at night and just being in her company, because I enjoyed it. Nowadays people go to their yard, get their horse in from the field, groom, ride, untack, and put them away again. I don't believe that they can bond that way, and I think having a bond on the ground is just as important as being a good rider. I'm sure there are tonnes of people out there on full/part livery who spend lots of time with their horses and have a great bond, I just think that this may be adding to the 'problem horses' question.
I think there is also a huge increase in how many people have their horses on full/part livery. I don't think this allows horse and rider to bond very well. I remember spending hours skipping my pony out at night and just being in her company, because I enjoyed it. Nowadays people go to their yard, get their horse in from the field, groom, ride, untack, and put them away again. I don't believe that they can bond that way, and I think having a bond on the ground is just as important as being a good rider. I'm sure there are tonnes of people out there on full/part livery who spend lots of time with their horses and have a great bond, I just think that this may be adding to the 'problem horses' question.
Kallibear
Well-Known Member
oh, I entirely agree. I would ALWAYS reccomend a novice get a horse vetted. Always. BUT those kind of issues (unlike the heart and, which is where we started although I've rather lost my point now
) is usually noticed by competant experienced buyer and therefore a vetting is less essesntial. I'd still get one done but I'd probably pick up most issues before I got to that stage.
NiceChristmasBaubles
Well-Known Member
Actually I must say and this is in relation to a thread I've read tonight..... the op is having problems with her new horse. I totally sympathise with that - some horses do take the proverbial and take a while to settle down. But part of the thread then goes on to say "I've called the BHS legal line for advice". Are we becoming that much of a litigious society? Because if we are, the horses are going to be the first things that suffer. 
Kallibear
Well-Known Member
Actually I must say and this is in relation to a thread I've read tonight..... the op is having problems with her new horse. I totally sympathise with that - some horses do take the proverbial and take a while to settle down. But part of the thread then goes on to say "I've called the BHS legal line for advice". Are we becoming that much of a litigious society? Because if we are, the horses are going to be the first things that suffer.
The whole worlds gone Sue Happy.
But in the case of the other thread (assuming it's the one I'm thinking of) it sounds a little more serious as an instructor (who presumably knows what she's doing) is involved and also have serious issue. It's also rather dodgy that the seller (who the BHS thinks is actually a dealer) has apparently dissapeared....... By the sounds of it the buyer did everythihg as they should and can be reasonably expected to do: saw multiple times, had an experienced person out to see the horse too. 5stage vetting and now getting proffesinoal help from the start.
NiceChristmasBaubles
Well-Known Member
I agree, now that I've read the whole thread that it does all seem somewhat dodgy and maybe there was quite a lot missed out in the OP before the calling in of legal advice. Yet another example though of a potential bad sale/purchase which is worrying. How do we stop this going on?
YorksG
Over the hill and far awa
A lot of novice buyers go for looks over behaviour, with the consequent problems. They will buy the shiney well brushed animal, rather than the one dragged in from the field and hosed off. They do not have the experience to see below the mud and are blinded by the idea that if the horse looks flashy it will make them look like a good rider
Two perfect examples are the family who bought their 14 year old daughter a 15.3 tb type, brushed and plaited on viewing, that face planted the girl when she tried it, because as mother said 'she looked lovely on her', I can only assume that was before she fell off. The second was a 14hh native type, brought in from the field, legs hosed off and potential buyer pretty much left to her own devices to try the animal, allowing the horse to sell herself. She has gone on to be a perfect pony for the family that bought her and she scrubbs up quite well too
Two perfect examples are the family who bought their 14 year old daughter a 15.3 tb type, brushed and plaited on viewing, that face planted the girl when she tried it, because as mother said 'she looked lovely on her', I can only assume that was before she fell off. The second was a 14hh native type, brought in from the field, legs hosed off and potential buyer pretty much left to her own devices to try the animal, allowing the horse to sell herself. She has gone on to be a perfect pony for the family that bought her and she scrubbs up quite well too
Twinkley Lights
Well-Known Member
Thank you for discussing my thread I would appreciate any positive feedback. Also on what was missed by op???? Thanks to those who said I did possible pre checks - just to be clear I have been riding for 30 odd years I'm rusty not a numpty who buys on a whim and gets litigious - I was just covering bases in case prev owner bailed and at the mo it's not looking good. Please have a heart we are not all naeive greenies.
Pearlsacarolsinger
Up in the clouds
In nickicb's defence though there was another thread today (which seems to have disappeared) about a 14 yr old and a 3 yr old horse from a notorious dealer and there have been many others where it has been obvious that the purchaser mis-bought and would actually have been better with a rocking-horse.
Kallibear
Well-Known Member
Post in the public domain and you cannot complain if you are discussed publicly! And if you don't give all the information (inc things like being an experienced rider/being a novice/being rusty) then again you cannot complain if people make assumptions to fill in the gap. On public forums you need to take what is written at face value and can only use what you are told to form opinions.
And I do suspect it was about the grey and white mare from earlier, poor little mite. I really hope they get something sorted. She can come and live with me
martlin
Well-Known Member
I don't think there is any defence necessary, tbh. Shivvy, with all due respect, you have posted on a public forum, and so did nickib... it's not like anybody is talking about you behind your back.
I have to say I found the consultation with the BHS lawyer a bit of a quick move, too.
BTW, I think you should have the saddle checked again and maybe seek another instructor's opinion before you go down the ''crucify the seller'' route.
I have to say I found the consultation with the BHS lawyer a bit of a quick move, too.
BTW, I think you should have the saddle checked again and maybe seek another instructor's opinion before you go down the ''crucify the seller'' route.
Twinkley Lights
Well-Known Member
I know folk are trying to be positive but when you already painfully aware of your own position in the poop it's not great to read detached third person stuff as if you were a dafty. Final plea rusty is just that competent rider with sore bum getting back in gear not horse phobic who doesn't know one end from another. Didn't see other post tonight too self absorbed - good luck to the poster and wish her a good outcome.
NiceChristmasBaubles
Well-Known Member
Post in the public domain and you cannot complain if you are discussed publicly! And if you don't give all the information (inc things like being an experienced rider/being a novice/being rusty) then again you cannot complain if people make assumptions to fill in the gap. On public forums you need to take what is written at face value and can only use what you are told to form opinions.
And I do suspect it was about the grey and white mare from earlier, poor little mite. I really hope they get something sorted. She can come and live with me
Thanks guys - I was indeed quoting Shivvy's thread (the first I've actually made specific reference to tonight). It was because the OP (original post) basically stated that there were issues with a new horse not settling and then the statement that she had referred to the BHS legal advisors. No immediate reference to experience etc. Later on came the references to that. This to me was an example of the knee jerk reaction we see all too often. However, please see my later post Shivvy where I apologised and said that once I had read all the thread it did seem like you do have a genuine issue and cause for complaint.
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Twinkley Lights
Well-Known Member
Thanks
NiceChristmasBaubles
Well-Known Member
Thanks
No worries - this is more about the generic issues than anyone specific - I hope you get your specific situation sorted.
xx
martlin
Well-Known Member
Going back a bit to the original subject, and somewhat relevant to Shivvy's post, I suppose... Back in the day when I was more into buying and selling, after some experiences I have taken to employing novicy grooms/riders, as strange as it sounds, when you sell a horse, any horse, you can only really, honestly say that it has been easy for YOU, the number of times I thought I have got a real poppet on my hands, only to find it rather, ahem, challenging in different home/environment!
Most of the time I can't tell how a horse will behave when yanked in the teeth - because I don't do that, I can't tell if it can tolerate a nervous, scared rider - because I'm neither scared or nervous It is a tricky skill to learn, to step into another person's shoes.
What I'm trying to say is, horses are much more often mis-bought than they are mis-sold. All you can do as a seller is to give the buyer ample opportunity to make sure the match is right.
Most of the time I can't tell how a horse will behave when yanked in the teeth - because I don't do that, I can't tell if it can tolerate a nervous, scared rider - because I'm neither scared or nervous
It is a tricky skill to learn, to step into another person's shoes.What I'm trying to say is, horses are much more often mis-bought than they are mis-sold. All you can do as a seller is to give the buyer ample opportunity to make sure the match is right.
Twinkley Lights
Well-Known Member
I do agree with that as younger horses so often take confidence from rider. That was why I tried this chap so often before purchase to make sure my stiff legs wouldn't make him uneasy and discussed this with prev owner. Didn't seem that way but you do all you can do and then they come to a new yard and nature and nurture kick in.
NiceChristmasBaubles
Well-Known Member
Going back a bit to the original subject, and somewhat relevant to Shivvy's post, I suppose... Back in the day when I was more into buying and selling, after some experiences I have taken to employing novicy grooms/riders, as strange as it sounds, when you sell a horse, any horse, you can only really, honestly say that it has been easy for YOU, the number of times I thought I have got a real poppet on my hands, only to find it rather, ahem, challenging in different home/environment!
Most of the time I can't tell how a horse will behave when yanked in the teeth - because I don't do that, I can't tell if it can tolerate a nervous, scared rider - because I'm neither scared or nervous
What I'm trying to say is, horses are much more often mis-bought than they are mis-sold. All you can do as a seller is to give the buyer ample opportunity to make sure the match is right.
I think I know what you are saying, although I must say I am reaching the weary point of the evening! When I was 16 I/my parents bought a 5 year old 3/4 bred mare. Complete and utter neurotic hat-rack from Ireland bought through a SJ dealers yard, and advertised in H&H magazine. Probably not much different from all the horses being discussed on these threads these days. I even got my experienced professionals (my bosses on the livery yard I worked God knows how many hours a week on) to see me riding and full vetting.
That was around 30 years ago. Got the mare home and it took 2 of us two hours to get the bridle on the first time. Gradually got less. Went out for first ride, met a tractor, she dumped me, ran through barbed wire fence, cut herself to pieces and was off work for a week. Tried again and she napped (reared into trees with me on top) coming back home. So we decided that we would work her into the ground until she wanted to come home. Nothing cruel, no whips or spurs, but we hacked for 3 hours at full trot/canter until she crawled home. I wouldn't say it was easy sailing after that, but we sorted it out and I lost her in April this year at 35 - she was a total schoolmistress for the last 20 years of her life.
What am I saying here? Not sure really, but we couldn't afford to be picky, she was the horse that was bought for me and we sorted it out, and boy did she teach me a lot.
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