Problem purchases - on the increase?

baran said:
Think this is another part of the problem! People treat their horse as a pet and forget horses were bred to be working animals. The RS I went to would pick up a load of horses in the morning, they were ridden by two members of staff to assess their suitability and were carrying paying customers the next day. They had happy confident horses who knew where they stood from day one.
No professional is going to mess around for years like that.
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They were very lucky they didn't end up with a badly injured customer! I would call that careless not professional!
 
I'm sorry you and your horse are having problems but that's not mis-selling, or mis-buying - its pure bad luck!
I don't think you have any reason to suppose that the vendor wasn't heartbroken, or selling for financial reasons. If you had access to his veterinary history, what are you suggesting was done before you bought him?
I hope his surgery is successful.
 
My pony that I bought this year could have turned out to be a horror if she'd stayed in her old home. She was in 24/7, miserable and started refusing to move in the school with her young owner. Thankfully the mother acknowledged their lack of experience and decided to sell her and buy something older. They were constrained by their livery yard and not too proud to admit that the routine there just wasn't going to work for the pony.

With a change of management (she's now out 24/7) teeth, back, saddle, heel mites etc all done and back to basics with the riding she is turning into an absolutely fab pony. Sometimes it just takes a different approach to things to make things work. I've had lovely messages from her old owners (I keep her updated with our progress) - one said 'thank you for giving her the perfect home that we never could'

My previous 3 horses have all been 'cheap' and have had issues - but with work, patience and an understanding that I'd have to out up with some of their quirks I've had so much fun with all of them.

Maybe the difference is that I bought mine cheap and expected things to be tricky / for it to take time, so was prepared for that. It took me 2 years to be able to do a decent walk and trot test on my boy who had only ever jumped - but we were soon doing pretty well at prelim on a good day!
 
Goldenstar said:
It may be rare but it happened to me if I has skipped the vetting I would have been sending my OH hunting on a death trap , and I nearly did as he had passed one three months earlier but he was expensive so I did just in case and boy was I glad I did.
You also can't asses eye issues well with out the equipment you can't flex test ( well you could but the seller would not like it ) .
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We had a very similar experience.

My husband bought a 7 year old horse who passed a 5 stage vetting. He developed a heart murmor got sent to Newmarket to have it assessed and had to be PTS just over 3 months after we bought him.

Heart problems can happen and come on very quickly too. Without a vetting we wouldn't have had a leg to stand on as the insurance company tried to say it was a pre-existing condition (which it wasn't). They did pay out in full in the end.
 
I think maybe experience gives you an idea of problems that can and can't be fixed in a horse and there's a lot of satisfaction to be had from that.

Paula
 
galaxy said:
I have met several people (yes inexperienced) who have been told by their "experienced advisor or the seller (generally dealer) that they are better off with a young/green horse. Sad thing is that the seller/advisor I don't think are trying to pull the wool over their eyes I actually think they believe it!!! Apparently an older schoolmaster will soon catch on that their new owner is novicey and will behave badly because of that. Their green/only knows how to go in a straight line youngster will not realise that and so they will behave better and have less problems!!!

It is actually scary that there are professionals out there that can live with themselves giving such poor advice :(
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I don't think that's intentionally given bad advice I think it's genuinely because they can't empathise with what it's like to be a novice or nervous I think I would have been guilty of this sort of thinking in my early twenties I was brave knew no fear and would have been intolerant of those who did as I aged I moved to if you're scared wtf do it ,now as I am in my fifties I don't see thinks like that any more just in many shades of grey .
Novices and novices will almost always end in tears however I got some good cheap horses coming out of that situation over the years.
 
Crugeran Celt said:
They were very lucky they didn't end up with a badly injured customer! I would call that careless not professional!
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Why? That is precisely the attitude I was criticising. They sourced the horses from a delaer with a good reputation for providing sensible well-schooled horses, ready to go from day one, not pampered neurotic pets.
 
As one of those that this may be aimed at, I have to say that we did all the right things re pre-purchase. Tried the horse a number of times, schooling in the arena and hacking, 5* vetting (blood and x-rays) also had the horse on trial with a contract.
We went in with our eyes open and knew there was an issue with the level of training she had received but have enough experience and help from others to be able to work through this and we are.

I posted on here about the problems to benefit from other people's experience and to see if there was anything we had possibly overlooked. Sometimes a problem can get to the stage where you can't see the wood for the trees and a simple suggestion may make all the difference.

We are hoping we have now found the cause of our problem but only time will tell. We have no intention of moving her on and letting her become someone else's problem.

Problems can develop that no-one can foresee (as in our case) and that is unfortunate. What is unfortunate is the number of people who are not equipped/experienced enough or have the back up of people to help them.

I believe more people should look at themselves and see if they are causing the problem rather than pointing the finger immediately at the horse.
 
Sarah1 said:
Not read all of the replies so if anyone has said this I agree with you...
I think 'back in the day' riders were braver, stood for less messing and the horses weren't pumped full of all sorts of feed and supplements.
I also think health & safety has gone mad - I remember my nieces learning to ride 20 years ago and they were nuts and were allowed to be nuts even at pony camp (especially at pony camp ;)), kids these days would probably not be allowed to do half of what my nieces did and that's really sad as my own daughter has just got a pony and will be learning to ride properly as soon as she's a bit bigger (only 21 months so just sitting on for short periods at the mo) and I fear she will be 'wrapped in cotton wool' far more than she needs to be (though probably not at home!). My nieces both had plenty of knocks and falls and it's made them both better, braver riders - they will literally get on anything now & more often than not get a tune out of it...really gets my goat! :mad::D
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I totally agree with this. Outside of the school at my yard nobody likes to canter their horse because they're too afraid that a) Their horse might bolt, b) Don't know what their horse will do in wide open spaces and c) Just not confident enough. They think I'm mad :D
 
You also need to think about the attitude that seems prevelant on here...

I wont send my horse away to a professional to ride and assess if we have a problem anywhere/bring on his schooling. They wont look after my precious little poppet like I do at home, and no-one could possibly ride him as well as I do.
 
micramadam said:
As one of those that this may be aimed at, I have to say that we did all the right things re pre-purchase. Tried the horse a number of times, schooling in the arena and hacking, 5* vetting (blood and x-rays) also had the horse on trial with a contract.
We went in with our eyes open and knew there was an issue with the level of training she had received but have enough experience and help from others to be able to work through this and we are.

I posted on here about the problems to benefit from other people's experience and to see if there was anything we had possibly overlooked. Sometimes a problem can get to the stage where you can't see the wood for the trees and a simple suggestion may make all the difference.

We are hoping we have now found the cause of our problem but only time will tell. We have no intention of moving her on and letting her become someone else's problem.

Problems can develop that no-one can foresee (as in our case) and that is unfortunate. What is unfortunate is the number of people who are not equipped/experienced enough or have the back up of people to help them.

I believe more people should look at themselves and see if they are causing the problem rather than pointing the finger immediately at the horse.
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Excellent post
 
Weve bought two recently, one in December last year and a pony in May. Both are lovely.
I did know of one that the vet said pts, and was sold as a riding horse. Said horse apparently collapsed on the road. I know the people concerned and they are not as experienced as they think they are (used to ride our pony) seller probably saw them comming a mile off. I dont think people in general are as honest as they used to be, but in these hard times lots of poeople are looking for a dream horse for next to nothing.
 
Sadly tonight, yet another new poster with yet another badly bought/badly sold/new horse with a problem has posted in the past few minutes. :(

A couple of other random and unconnected thoughts I had today while mucking out (always gives me time to think!).

- There seem to be a lot of (well meaning) do gooders rescuing horses from the meat man. In the past these horses/ponies would have fallen out of the loop, but are these now being 'rescued' and sold on as riding ponies?

- I noticed that H&H said there was an increase in RS attendees following the Olympics - I hope that doesn't mean there will be an increase in people who can't cope buying dressage horses/eventers/showjumpers off the back of 2012. Don't get me wrong - 2012 has been wonderful, not just for equestrians (and the paralympics is only just beginning), but do we need an influx of yet more people 'keeping up with the Jones' and getting their children/themselves their Rio horses?
 
I dont think its always the sellers... I think its the buyers. I have recently been selling a very well schooled/mannered lad who I can let pretty much anybody ride and he does the work himself, The amount of numpties Ive had view him who cant get him to go nicely at all was unreal. Hes found a lovely home now but gosh ... I was shocked at some of them. Alot more people appear to be buying horses now, and i think there are alot of cheap horses on the market who are nice horses but people just cannot ride them when they get them back home. The majority of horses you view will be comfortable in their own environment that they are used to, tack which is well fitted, kept in good health etc and then they get moved to somewhere new, possibly new tack which may/may not have been fitted and if anything like mine, when somewhere new like to have a gallop around the fields to find any way to damage themselves.

If the horse is nervous or in pain and the rider for whatever reason doesnt realise they end up having a fight over it and just escalating it completely when it could have been avoided.

I know this isnt always the case, but i'm certainly seeing alot more of this now, once the horse has only just got to know you and already had a bad experience its going to be difficult for the horse and rider to get over quickly if it wasnt handled correctly in the first place.

Its a shame people dont take their time to have lessons properly, possibly share a horse or loan one before actually buying.
 
Some stories are shocking. I have a quality dressage horse for sale at the moment and have been totally honest with people who have contacted me. I have told them both the positives and negatives, afterall no horse is perfect! I have even e-mailed someone his previous vetting report and have past x-rays if they want to compare with new ones. For both the horse's sake and the new owners I can't see any point whatsoever in trying to gloss over any issues, they will only rear their ugly head later on. If anything I would rather keep the horse and be able to sleep easy than sell to an unsuitable home.
 
baran said:
Why? That is precisely the attitude I was criticising. They sourced the horses from a delaer with a good reputation for providing sensible well-schooled horses, ready to go from day one, not pampered neurotic pets.
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Because a horse as you say responds well to a confident rider/leader which I am sure the instructors were but to place a client on that same horse having only been ridden once by a competent rider is crazy. Surely they would ride the horse over a period of at least a few days to ensure their behaviour was consistant. Perhaps I am over sensitive to horses but I would give a horse at least a week to settle into the yards new routine before I would ride it, is that so wrong?
 
Crugeran Celt said:
Because a horse as you say responds well to a confident rider/leader which I am sure the instructors were but to place a client on that same horse having only been ridden once by a competent rider is crazy. Surely they would ride the horse over a period of at least a few days to ensure their behaviour was consistant. Perhaps I am over sensitive to horses but I would give a horse at least a week to settle into the yards new routine before I would ride it, is that so wrong?
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I never wait to ride I start the day after they arrive even three year olds would be taken into the school and led round walked on the lunge if they had been having some work before hand.
I start as I expect to continue and that working six days a week here .
 
brilliant thread !

Something ive seen time and time again at my yard is complete novices who think they are so much better than they are who decide to buy a 'baby'. they then completely ruin said horse with their complete lack of knowledge and in a lot of cases 'incompetence'.

horse is then sold on and branded a 'problem' horse even though the horse wasnt a problem until it wasnt educated correctly.......often brought by another novice who thinks they can deal with a 'baby' and sort it out as its often sold on cheaply to get rid.

i think we live in a society that expects everything now and people often dont understand that it takes years to gain the knowledge and skill to correctly train a young horse and that no one ever stops learning. if joe blogs can do it then so can i mentality ! i think there is often a competitive element between liveries sometimes at livery yards and people buy horses ' to be in with the crowd' rather than what is suited to them, its like that at my yard anyway !!!

its the poor horses i feel sorry for !!!
 
Goldenstar said:
I never wait to ride I start the day after they arrive even three year olds would be taken into the school and led round walked on the lunge if they had been having some work before hand.
I start as I expect to continue and that working six days a week here .
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I feel quite envious of you to be honest, wish I could be that workman like about my horses some times. Still I do feel they need a little time to settle, I would handle them daily from the first day but would not ride them until they got used to me handling them, over sensitive? You don't need to answer that I think I know.:o
 
Crugeran Celt said:
I feel quite envious of you to be honest, wish I could be that workman like about my horses some times. Still I do feel they need a little time to settle, I would handle them daily from the first day but would not ride them until they got used to me handling them, over sensitive? You don't need to answer that I think I know.:o
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Well I will reply I think horses respond most to leadership and that's why I start off as I do .
I always try to be on the yard when a new horse arrives the horse is stabled where it can see others and my groom knows not to pet or fuss it we are confident calm but matter of fact with them but in fact I am watching and learning about them I can learn a lot in the first half hour the confident or bolsy the shy the less confident that seeks the human for help the troublesome by the end of that half hour I will be forming my plan on how to approach this one .
For the first few days I do very little fussing or petting its calm confident handling I stay out of their space and they are expected to stay put of mine as work starts it all just sort of sorts it's self out.
 
Crugeran Celt said:
I feel quite envious of you to be honest, wish I could be that workman like about my horses some times. Still I do feel they need a little time to settle, I would handle them daily from the first day but would not ride them until they got used to me handling them, over sensitive? You don't need to answer that I think I know.:o
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I always give new horses at least a week to settle in before riding. They are put into a field adjacent to the herd (and as it happens to neighbours' horses as well). They are handled and fed daily, brought in at night if it's winter and allowed to settle into their new surroundings/routine. I will ask the farrier to come within the 1st week to remove hind-shoes, if applicable, so that when they are introduced to the herd, normal horse behaviour doesn't turn into tragedy.
We do not have a school and our 1st ride is most likely to be a hack on quiet local roads in company. Should the worst happen and we part company, at least the horse will know where to head back to, to familiar companions.
 
Goldenstar I admire your attitude and perhaps if more people sought the advice from someone like you before purchasing a horse they would end up with something suitable to their needs and not an animal that had to be passed on again and again. I bought a cob 5 years ago and to be honest he is not ideal but I will stick with him and make the most of what I have got, he will not end up another horse that gets sold on just because he is not ideal for me. I bought him he is now my responsibility until the day he dies.
 
Goldenstar said:
Well I will reply I think horses respond most to leadership and that's why I start off as I do .
I always try to be on the yard when a new horse arrives the horse is stabled where it can see others and my groom knows not to pet or fuss it we are confident calm but matter of fact with them but in fact I am watching and learning about them I can learn a lot in the first half hour the confident or bolsy the shy the less confident that seeks the human for help the troublesome by the end of that half hour I will be forming my plan on how to approach this one .
For the first few days I do very little fussing or petting its calm confident handling I stay out of their space and they are expected to stay put of mine as work starts it all just sort of sorts it's self out.
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I honestly don't think it matters much if you ride the day/day after it arrives or a week later. It depends far more on the first couple of hours handling! A horse can AND DO suss out a new handler within 5mins. Fail that very first test and you've got a lot of work to do to catch up. Riding is the same :they suss the rider out within 5mins. However with riding your actually ability is probably less important that your attitude : you need to confident in your own ablity, assertive and completely certain that you are right! I've seem plenty of novice but assertive/confident (usually male) riders who to be frankly honest can't ride at all but the horse behaves because of their attitude, not their ability. Woman are much worse at being fluffy bunnies and wibbling ;)

Goldenstar: I supect it wouldn't make a blind bit of difference if you left the horse a month or rode it the minute it arrived. It'd still behave itself as it's correctly handled and managed and knows it's place in life.
And for a nervous or novice rider it prob ably wouldn't make difference to the HORSE either but the extra time gives the new owner a chance to gather some much needed courage and assertiveness. No point getting on it the day after it arrives and 'starting as you mean to go on' when the rider is a useless nervous wreck and the horse senses that within seconds.
 
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