Problems when turning out with getting the headcollar off!

Snowysadude

Snowysadude

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I have bought a new horse recently and although he has behaved himself very well for the most part riding etc, i was warned when i bought him from a dealer (although a more high level competition dealer) that he can be difficult with turning out and catching. I though it was a bit odd for a dealer to warn me of that of all things but nevertheless i went on and bought the horse. He has been a star to bring in and catch for the first 3 weeks of me owning him, really couldnt belive he was a problem at all.... but then for the past 3 or 4 days i have been having some real issues. When i turn out as soon as i turn him round to face the gate to take off his headcollar the backs up and gallops off!! That results in me then having to chase him around the field for 30 mins to just un - clip his leadrope and leave the headcollar on.

I think i have tried most things to stop it including bitting him (never again - took me 55 mins to get the bleeding bridle off - didnt respect the chifney!), turning him out with treats to keep him there (doent work hes not interested in them and he still legs it), taking the headcollar off in the gateway before he is in the field (backed straight back out the field and went for a jolly across the yard - not trying that one again). I am a very calm with him and try not to spook him but as soon i put my hand near his face he freaks! I have never hit him or anything but he has obviously been hit before from his reaction. I also practice putting on and taking off the headcollar in the stable but that makes no difference when he is up the field. He is not headshy at all in any other way either he loves cuddling his head into you and having it brushed!

So does anyone have any other suggestions i could try to stop him or should i give up and just leave headcollar on and not turn out with a leadrope (he is good to lead - but i dont like leaving headcollars on and would ideally like the leadrope in case something does happen!). Oh and he is like it to catch as well - but only if the headcollar is left on (odd horse, he is fine if you put the headcollar on to catch him but if you couldnt get it off and catch him with it on he freaks and gallops off again!). I think he is a bit thick..... Thanks for reading, any suggestions will be greatly appreciated!!!

Oh hes 17hh so not small, i am 5ft9 and strong, the man who runs the yard couldnt hold him either when trying to turn out!
 
Could you turn him out with no clip, just a long rope threaded through his headcollar. Then you could just unslide it as you went through the gate, no stopping or building up to anything? Wouldn't help with catching him though!
 
Had the same problem with my boy when first got him. Came too me with a cathcing problem, never had problems until around a month after!!!!!, I think they spend this time sussing you out.

The only way I can get him is if he has the head collar on. Have all sorts of experts to help, but some how without the head collar he thinks it a free for all. Leave the head collar on and he is like a puppy, I think he has already accepted he is caught.

For eg, took his head collar off yesterday for the first time in years, he was an 'arse' finally caught him put head collar on was a puppy again
 
Leather head collar, and then a lead rope without the clip, so you have it threaded through and can just let go with out the fight once you are in the field and pull it through.
Or
Walk to the furthest point in the field, probably best to get someone else to shut the gate behind you, then he wont have any where to run to.
Or someone else played about for ages with a lunge line, so they cant actually get away, didnt really help though.

Can you tell I had a mare with this problem!! Atm you sound lucky, my mare used to turn, turn her self inside out and usually leave shoes flying in her wake and missing me by inches!!!

We never did stop her, just managed it the best and safest we could.
 
re: the leadrope - thread a lunge line/slip reins through so that when you do turn him out, you can literally pull it and he's free. It'll save time and your fingers being taken off.

Re: headcollar - may well be a pressure thing. Do you know his history?

Oh and now that you've had him 3/4 weeks - he may now be trying it on and testing the boundaries
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I might get accused of being a bunny hugger but could you try a dually headcollar and a lunge rope. My friend has a very strong horse who used to run off on way to and from field, she tried bridle etc but nothing worked. She tried a dually halter and he has never managed to get away since.
 
My mare can be a bit like this some days, especially in the winter when they get less turnout. Is he food-oriented at all? I trained my mare that she gets a polo after her headcollar comes off, which stopped her from just peeing off as soon as we got through the gate. Now she usually waits quite nicely, gets her goodies and then pootles off.
 
I would use a slip rope but I would still take him into the field and turn him round before releasing him with the headcollar (leather)on. If he learn to go from the gate, they start trying to go earlier and earlier and learn more bad manners. You could always make a pen just inside the gate so that he can't go anywhere while you let him go - even if it is from jumps it may help. If he pulls away when you catch him take a 2nd headcollar to put on to bring him in.
 
Haha thank you, i will try just threading the leadrope through the headcollar! He is out in a leather one also so it can snap should he get it caught, i think i might have to just resign myself to leaving the headcollar on though, its too much of a fight and i dont have time to get it off! I tried turning out with a lunge line, it kinda worked but i had to lunge him in the field in the end with two of us hanging on and him bronking madly around us - but he did stop in the end and we could un clip it (not get the headcollar off thou!). And he turns and bronks across the field when he pulls backwards and gets away :S! Not pulled any shoes yet thou thank goodness - poor you! Thing is you wouldnt expect it from him, hes so calm in every other respect it really took me by suprise!

As for leaving the headcollar on to catch gails, he is a bit thick and will only let me catch him when it is not on - you did just read that right hehe (see my problem, leave it on to turn out and i cant catch him, but i often cant get it off in the mornings, when i do he is a dream to catch and comes to call - he really is thick i swear!!)
 
I know where you're coming from. Been there and got the t-shirt.

It's not cheap but one thing that absolutely works is a Stephens Controller headcollar. Nothing fights one of those more than once or twice. A sharp tug and release is all that is required once the horse learns its action. They are used for leading stallions that are covering in hand and are very effective.

I can't remember where I originally bought mine. It was several years ago but I see eBay have some listed. For example - Stephen's Controller

I find I get the best control when using it with the ring on the top of the nose, rather than underneath. This has stopped the horse rearing in hand, barging across the handler when being led, running backwards in hand, and bolting away prematurely when being released in the paddock. The controller buckles on both sides of the horse's head, which makes unbuckling it in the field quick when the horse to keep him still enough to remove it in the field safely. Gradually he's become used to the routine, until now he'll surprise me and wait by me even after the head piece is off.
 
teapot - I will try that with the lunge line/rope and the person who sold him to me imported him from holland as a 3 yr old and has had full contact with the owner before me (he was competing internationally and trust me, the person who sold him to me likes to boast about how the horses he imported are doing!), when he sold him to me he had one home previous and has never had anything outragous done to him - but he hates poll pressure so had his poll checked and physio said its not sensitive - it is like he is afraid of my hand coming up to his face! He will stand like an angel in the field until i reach up (hes 17hh) to un clip him then he freaks! Its mad!

flight - might try it - will talk to the people on my yard see if there is one i can borrow and see if it works!

milliepops - hes not interested in food at all in the mornings, wont even eat breakfast so cant have any as all he wants to do is get out! Tried it with treats didnt work (i wish he was food orientated though!)

oldvic - i do take him in the field and turn him round, its when my hand comes near his face he freaks. I might try using some electric tape though to section off a block near the gate see how that goes - at least if he gets away he cant go far before i catch him again - my only worry is if he still went and jumped it then got caught!
 
ever_hopeful that sounds like what i need - the chifney didnt work thou so would that? If its not at all like chifney action then i may well invest in one - its well worth it if it sorts out this problem!
 
Be careful if you use your normal rope threaded through the headcollar as the clip can catch your hand and do a lot of damage. It is far safer to have a long plain bit of rope.
 
Just an odd thought...can you try (somehow) to put the headcollar on from the right so you can take it off from the right? Sounds like he has a phobia related to the hand going up and it may be place sensitive on the left where the original fright happened (assuming he has somehow been scared in the past). By moving to his right rather than his left he may see this as an entirely different movement. Might be worth a try!
 
Is he strong to lead to the field? My mare is very "quick to depart" but very good to lead to the field. If I fumble undoing the headcollar she is already off and we get into a yanking match
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so at the field entrance, before I open the gate, I change the properly done up headcollar to undone-but headpiece-slipped-through-the-buckle (hope that makes sense). Then I can turn her, and let her go in one fluid movement, not touching the buckle as it all falls off in one movement - would that work if he only panics once in the field?
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Good point oldvic thank you!
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booboos i could try and turn it inside-out i suppose and tiwst the side of it to get the clip to do up properly i suppsose! That is innovative thinking haha i think i will actually try that one tomorrow morning (first in the stable though check it is still easy to un-do hehe)! Thanks
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Hornby he is a star to lead to the paddock - just strong as soon as he is in there! I didnt really think about doing that to be honest - seems so obvious now u say it but i never tried it as he has only been bad for the past few days and i didnt know if he would go back to the yard if i did that (he backs off and bolts when a hand is lifted near his face when he is in the field - its like a fear reaction). But i might see how he reacts to me going near his head outside the field and if he is fine with it i will try that and see if it works! Thanks
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[ QUOTE ]
ever_hopeful that sounds like what i need - the chifney didnt work thou so would that? If its not at all like chifney action then i may well invest in one - its well worth it if it sorts out this problem!

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Well, the Stephen's doesn't go in the mouth. Instead it works on the sensitive areas of the horse's face, rather than its mouth. Neither are nice forms of control, and neither should be used except in extreme cases and certainly never be misused.

However, I've yet to come across any horse which will take on the action of the Stephen's. No matter how old, young or large. The trick in using the Stephens is to never pull on the lead rein attached to the ring. Rather, a short, sharp jerk on the rope will result in a quick rap on the metal ring which gets the horse's attention immediately. Few want to feel the rap again, but in the determined few - after a few 'episodes' resulting in a quick jerk of the ring, the horse quickly learns it's preferable to behave when the Stephen's is on.

If you were close you could borrow one of mine to try. I've got two and only use the old one.
 
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I might get accused of being a bunny hugger but could you try a dually headcollar and a lunge rope. My friend has a very strong horse who used to run off on way to and from field, she tried bridle etc but nothing worked. She tried a dually halter and he has never managed to get away since.

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Echo this. Also think you need to do some ground work with him in the Dually to establish you as the boss, teach or remind him of his manners, and make sure he realises you control where he puts his feet and how he behaves. Works wonders for my 17hh monster who thought he could trample everyone on the way ot the field or tank off when being turned out.

Is he turned out with other horses? Mine only behaves like this if turned out alone. He absolutley has to have field company, otherwise he's a nightmare.
 
[ QUOTE ]
booboos i could try and turn it inside-out i suppose and tiwst the side of it to get the clip to do up properly i suppsose! That is innovative thinking haha i think i will actually try that one tomorrow morning (first in the stable though check it is still easy to un-do hehe)! Thanks
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Well it's a long shot, but as long as it can be done safely it might be worth a try.

I remember once at the dog club advanced class, where we had all been doing retrieves and distance control, etc. for a while, and felt very satisfied with ourselves, the dog trainer said: "Right, today, lie down and ask your dog to sit"...only one dog did a sit because the dogs had associated the command with a person standing up and all the things we thought were important like the voice aid and hand signal got totally lost in the change from standing to lying...sometimes context is everything!

Hope it's something that simple for you!
 
Does he have to be stabled and then have this frantic wanting to get into his field ??? do you know if he was stabled before ?
Maybe he would be better if he was out in field all the time ??

You say he is so desperate to get into field , he doesnt eat his breakfast in stable , maybe try leaving him in field and see if he is better to catch/ release again ????

Also The above suggestion of try doing his headcollar up and undoing it from the off side , as I knew a horse who would not have anything done with her on the near side, wouldnt be haltered , bridled, or saddled from the near side !! had to do everything with her on off side , she was dutch , some people say imported horses may be used to being dealt with on opposite side to our uk horses on near side ,

Good luck , hope he improves and you can enjoy him , what do you do with him ???

xxx
 
* whispers *

I tried the Dually on mine before the Stephens.... Mine was already used to pulling through the strong action of a chain run across his nose before I bought him, so the action of the Dually didn't actually deter him in the slightest
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To the OP: The Dually is a brilliant training aid and excellent for ground work. Definitely no harm in using one in the confines of a menage to instill some basic training in your horse.
 
Hi, had very similar prob with my 17hh hanoverian- also bought from a dealer, he is from Holland, and I believe that horses are not usually turned out there! Needless to say he was sooo excited about being able to go out that even getting from stable to field was a nightmare!! Lots of bruised fingers - tried a bit but thought he would rip all his teeth out in his haste to get away! I now use a leadrope with a chain which I feed through the back of the noseband of the headcollar, he is a lot better with this, lots of treats on way to field, turn him out same time each day and 5 mths later he is tons better! Now give him treats after taking headcollar off too and will just stand there! I completely sympathise, patience and perseverance will pay off!
 
Hopefully you will find a temporary solution and work with a good trainer to sort out whatever issues it is that are causing this symptom.

I appreciate you have a very real and urgent need to deal with this quickly, but watch that you don't just cover up the symptom without dealing with the cause. Quite important to avoid future problems in unforseen directions.
 
I think this behaviour is most likey down to poor ground training as a youngester.

All my babies are full of it when they've been in for any reason, and are liberated again. I can well see how pulling back and 'legging it' could become an established habit in certain individuals if they've manage to get away from their handler a few times. It is vital that young horses learn what is permitted. This is best achieve through a handler who is able to effectively counteract the inevitable 'blow up' most youngsters are going to throw once in a while. If a big strong youngster inadvertantly discovers a way to escape its handler by throwing a wobbly and getting loose (and let's face it, even a Shetland could tug the biggest of us if it wanted to!), the seed is set.

I think with the OP horse, he needs to relearn some ground rules. If it is only in the field that he misbehaves, then it's an established habit which needs to be unlearned.

In my own case, I found using the Stephen's and being able to insist the horse listens to me, very quickly stopped the violent attempts to 'get away'. Then over a length of time the behaviour gradually becomes 'un-set' in the horse's mind. That's not to say it's been entirely forgotten, but a 99% improvement works for me.
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I had this problem - try turnig the horse back to the gate, give her/him a treat, then take headcollar off. keep doing this and with time she/he will learn that to stand waiting brings reward!!
 
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