Proteins - well worth a read

[milliepops]

Just a thought, on this article. This is written by an American author. Did anyone see the recent hoo ha on Facebook where a load of horses because ill and died quickly, all fed on an apparently mainstream US compound feed. It turned out that it was a generic livestock feed not designed specifically for horses.
Perhaps the feed regimes in America are quite different and that could account for the tone of the article.

 

[Goldenstar]

Horse owners don't feed by dry matter in general. They feed by weight or volume. They don't compare one batch of forage with another as they have no means to do so. You're a farmer. Maybe you know the dry matter value of the food you feed your cows. I don't know and have never known a single horse owner who has the luxury of being able to do the same.

Most haylage contains so much more water than most hay, that it will contain a higher lower feed value AS FED by weight our volume than hay made from the same field at the same time.


Urea, ref your earlier post, is added to feed as a non protein nitrogen, which works for increasing protein for ruminants but not for horses. But it can fool protein tests into recording that there is more protein in food than there is.

Your not correct there .
The haylage I feed has analysis for every batch you can easily track moisture content protein and starch if you wish to .
If they are doing it others will me too .

 

[popsdosh]

Just a thought, on this article. This is written by an American author. Did anyone see the recent hoo ha on Facebook where a load of horses because ill and died quickly, all fed on an apparently mainstream US compound feed. It turned out that it was a generic livestock feed not designed specifically for horses.
Perhaps the feed regimes in America are quite different and that could account for the tone of the article.

Yes in America it is more common to use urea as a form of NPN which cattle convert to protein and is also added as it helps them breakdown lower quality forage ie straw more readily. It is less common in the UK and there are very strict labelling requirements for it. If fed to a non ruminant it is deadly hence why I will never have it on the farm! we are ultra cautious having once lost half a herd of cattle due to a driver mistake delivering pig food instead of their usual nuts!

 

[popsdosh]

Your not correct there .
The haylage I feed has analysis for every batch you can easily track moisture content protein and starch if you wish to .
If they are doing it others will me too .

Most reputable suppliers will test batches and willingly give you the figures in fact every bale in theory with some modern balers is tagged in the baler with the computer picking up moisture content and weight of the bale and maybe next season DE
as well. When we finish baling we get a map that shows us where certain bales are in the field so we can lump together bales of similar quality. Its getting a lot more technical than most imagine.

 

[popsdosh]

Urea, ref your earlier post, is added to feed as a non protein nitrogen, which works for increasing protein for ruminants but not for horses. But it can fool protein tests into recording that there is more protein in food than there is.

That is a very simplistic view of Urea as it doesnt increase protein at all on its own the clue being in its other description Non Protein Nitrogren ,it is just that bacteria within a ruminants stomach actually feed on the nitrogen and when they die increase the protein supply to the ruminant and in turn that relies on the animal having more energy within the feed to also feed the extra gut flora.
No protein test should ever be fooled by NPN as it is always listed seperately on any analysis we have back.

 

[milliepops]

Yes in America it is more common to use urea as a form of NPN which cattle convert to protein and is also added as it helps them breakdown lower quality forage ie straw more readily. It is less common in the UK and there are very strict labelling requirements for it. If fed to a non ruminant it is deadly hence why I will never have it on the farm! we are ultra cautious having once lost half a herd of cattle due to a driver mistake delivering pig food instead of their usual nuts!

thanks - so I am sticking with my instinct that recommending that people stuff a load of additional soya etc into their horse's usual UK-produced ration is not the best plan, and people should check what they are feeding overall before panicking :wink3:

Most reputable suppliers will test batches and willingly give you the figures in fact every bale in theory with some modern balers is tagged in the baler with the computer picking up moisture content and weight of the bale and maybe next season DE
as well. When we finish baling we get a map that shows us where certain bales are in the field so we can lump together bales of similar quality. Its getting a lot more technical than most imagine.

It's amazing, I sat in with OH while he baled the hay I'm feeding now and even with a fairly old set up I was very impressed! He's a right tractor geek, perhaps I'll mention the map of the field and see what response I get, lol

 

[catkin]

The question of DM strikes me as being perhaps of rather more importance than perhaps some people are giving credence to - IF it is correct that many horses are fed on forage actual weight rather than DM weight - so in effect many horses are, say, approx 20% short of food and therefore all the nutrients therein including protein. DM weight was drummed into me by the vet when calculating a diet for a metabolic horse so she was not getting too little (which causes other problems).
It's interesting that my current ponies are on ad-lib forage, no hardfeed just minerals apart from that. If you take the 'face-value' weight it appears they eat more than the recommended daily allowance, if you calculate on dry matter they do not eat more than 2-2.5% (a bit more in bad weather) so they regulate themselves to the recommended amount.

 

[JillA]

I have a nutritional analysis of my hay(lage) - as above, it is really hay that isn't quite dry and then wrapped, the weather forecast changed as soon as it was cut, if anyone wants to see it I am happy to post it. I'm not sure why everyone is getting hung up on how the moisture is extracted to give a DM figure, personally I would be thinking microwave.
I do think whilst there is an element of science and determining what needs supplementing, but as far as amounts go I am of the generation that regarding feeding as an art, to keep condition just right according to the work being done. And straights as much as possible, and reading labels even on straights.

 

[popsdosh]

I have a nutritional analysis of my hay(lage) - as above, it is really hay that isn't quite dry and then wrapped, the weather forecast changed as soon as it was cut, if anyone wants to see it I am happy to post it. I'm not sure why everyone is getting hung up on how the moisture is extracted to give a DM figure, personally I would be thinking microwave.
I do think whilst there is an element of science and determining what needs supplementing, but as far as amounts go I am of the generation that regarding feeding as an art, to keep condition just right according to the work being done. And straights as much as possible, and reading labels even on straights.

Indeed it was an art however our generation can only be bemused by the ever growing list of supplements available that on the whole have no value to the horse at all. However the placebo effect does wonders for the owner especially after some expert employed by the company tells you how wonderful it is. We never used to feed any hard food apart from home grown oats and broad bran and the occasional treat of cooked barley and linseed if only today it was that simple ,I feel we would be reported to the authorities for neglect if we did that today.

Ps . microwaves can be used but quickest is special ovens with vacuums or many just use a standard moisture meter and save the ovens for calibration purposes.

 

[JillA]

I suspect it is because most people don't have access to a feed merchant, saddlery shops etc only sell "convenience" prepacked food. I used to feed micronized barley with beet pulp and a few stud nuts for the vitamins etc, despite the sugars and starches mostly had healthy horses.
Has the quality of the vegetation used for hay deteriorated over the years though? Mine is from old meadow, permanent ley, with a bit of herbicide spray to keep the invasive weeds under control, but how much has been reseeded on a 5 or 10 year cycle I wonder.
I am glad of the analysis to point to deficiencies such as the horse who needs more protein to keep condition on, without it I would be very much as the mercy of trial and error.

 

[popsdosh]

I suspect it is because most people don't have access to a feed merchant, saddlery shops etc only sell "convenience" prepacked food. I used to feed micronized barley with beet pulp and a few stud nuts for the vitamins etc, despite the sugars and starches mostly had healthy horses.
Has the quality of the vegetation used for hay deteriorated over the years though? Mine is from old meadow, permanent ley, with a bit of herbicide spray to keep the invasive weeds under control, but how much has been reseeded on a 5 or 10 year cycle I wonder.
I am glad of the analysis to point to deficiencies such as the horse who needs more protein to keep condition on, without it I would be very much as the mercy of trial and error.

On the whole grassland management has improved however there are some poor examples of hay out there that look great to the eye but are made from very old grass cut off land that cannot be cut until 15th july so not carrying the digestible nutrients it should . This is where analysis can really help!

 

[ycbm]

Surely, though, grassland management has only improved for the keeping of cows and sheep? Has any research actually been done on growing grass for the keeping of non ruminants who can't manufacture their protein requirements as ruminants can and can't handle high levels of sugar?

I've been 'neglecting' my land for twenty five years. My farming neighbours are horrified at what they see as the 'state' my field is in. It's weed free (I remove by hand or spot treat with killer) and contains dozens, possibly hundreds, of species. I've never had healthier horses who are easier to keep in trim and lami free in spite of access to unlimited amounts of grass.

 

[ycbm]

Your not correct there .
The haylage I feed has analysis for every batch you can easily track moisture content protein and starch if you wish to .
If they are doing it others will me too .

I'm not correct? You are one of 'most people' in knowing your forage analysis? You must live in a very different horse keeping area than me if that is correct.

Most people I know feed forage either ad lib or by judging the condition of the horse and don't have a clue what the analysis is.

 

[milliepops]

Most people I know feed forage either ad lib or by judging the condition of the horse and don't have a clue what the analysis is.

if the horses are doing well on it with no health issues though, I'm not sure that its a problem whether you know the analysis?

'Most people' would know where the hay has come from (in terms of who delivered it), could ask what it contains in terms of species if they couldn't identify it themselves, can detect good hay from bad and could ask if it was an early or late cut. The suppliers I've used would tell you if it was suitable for good or poor doers, as a general principle... and they would probably know what their land was like (referring back to popsdosh's comment about grassland management, I think very little is down to guesswork these days).

and starting with that very basic information, judging by health and condition of the horses (assuming all other variables such as work and compound feed were the same or similar) would be a perfectly adequate way to approach feeding *most* horses, I reckon.

I do think that more people could access analysis of their forage if they wanted to, though- it's perhaps not common to ask, granted.

 

[ycbm]

I don't think it's a problem at all MP. I don't know mine and I think you are right. I was just surprised at GS saying that most people do. I was taught by old farming folk. Feed the horse you see in front of you. I do avoid feeding ryegrass, though. My understanding is that it was introduced to provide maximum caloric value for dairy cows, which is about the last thing you want for a leisure horse!

 

[splashgirl45]

I have no evidence that they can't be, and something has changed from when we were young, hasn't it Cortez?

FC's horse has been on a successful weight reduction diet and exercise plan for months, there is no reason for him to go laminitic now.

Some research would be good into whether grazing on tiny paddocks, single species forage and packaged feeds are contributing, either by lack of protein quality or on some other way.

years ago horses didnt live as long as they do now, vet knowledge has advanced alot since i was first involved with horses(1960's) also when older ponies got long coats we put it down to ageing and i am sure lots of them had cushings but we didnt know it.

 

[ycbm]

I think you are right on that, but I was thinking of the huge increase in diagnoses of horses considered 'too young' to have it - I've heard of as young as five or six. I have a friend whose very refused to test her horse of nine on the grounds of age, and when she insisted, the vet was extremely embarrassed at a very high positive result.

 

[splashgirl45]

i dont have any idea on that but maybe its to do with owners being so much more aware of cushings. i called the vet back in 2011 when my horse was 20 as i wanted her tested for cushings. vet didnt think she had it but said would blood test as i insisted. her level was 172 and vet was shocked as she didnt look like she had cushings. i knew my horse and was proved right...dont forget we now have the internet for info as well.

 

[Tnavas]

They explained the packaged feeds. Apparently some of them add urea, which is not a good source. The trouble with hay these days, and haylage, is that most of it is made of fast growing, sugar filled Italian ryegrass, so there is no breadth of species. Ten years ago Pete Ramey was advising that the way to feed for good feet was a mix of species in the forage.

I'm getting questions popping into my head reading the article.

Why do cases of leukoclastic vasculitis seem to hit the horses which are the types to be on restricted diets?

Why are there more atypical laminitis cases in horses which aren't overweight than I've ever heard of?

Why is there an absolute explosion in 'too young' horses with Cushings?

Something is going on, it would be good to see some research into whether protein is involved.

SOY I believe is the culprit - it is a poisonous plant unless treated - it causes major metabolic problems in humans and could be doing the same to our horses.

NZ has only had processed feeds to any degree in the last decade or so - the incidence of Cushings and other metabolic problems in minimal. It will be interesting to see if these problems increase as more and more start feeding processed feeds. We are still very much an Oat/Barley and Chaff nation.

In general unless a horse is hard work they only require 8-10% protein. Mors important is ensuring that they get the right amino acids as once they run out then proteins are excreted.