PSSM advice

[motherof2beasts!]

Having read a different thread on here has got me wondering if my lad has PSSM. I have ordered a test via animal genetics so will see what that comes back with. The things I identified through other threads that feel very familiar are-

• He is always wired in autumn/winter, is completely different in spring/summer , isnt affected by spring grass but turns into a snorty dragon from mid September onwards, spooks at everything just very hyper vigilant most of the time. Hacking becomes not very enjoyable as he doesn’t relax into it, although he is fine in the school.
• Although he is a very chunky cob he does suffer with the cold, even this year so far which has been mild he has needed increased physio and gets a sore stiff bottom, despite having a relatively easy life. For the first few minutes of work he is very stiff behind, this gradually improves as you go on, so I often take him for an in-hand walk before I ride.

In terms of tying up etc we don’t really see this. This is the worst time of year re rugging as weather is so unpredictable. Currently fed on a limited amount , just enough to get some vitamins in. He has healthy herbal chaff, TB daily balancer, a small amount of vitamin E , TB respiratory and coat supplement and a bit of cinnamon.

What other symptons do people see and what is the best management tips for me to try before results come back, do people feed more vitamin E than is advised?

 

[SEL]

People rarely see tying up tbh - I can think of two examples where a proper tie up happened in advance of diagnosis. One was turned out into a field of spring grass and the other was given oats to try and get more oomph. Most are like mine and get stiff and grumpy.

Might be worth ditching the cinnamon. It's an insulin sensitiser so gets used for EMS but you don't want that for PSSM.

Rugging and a decent dose of vitamin E are a good starting point whilst you're waiting for your results

 

[motherof2beasts!]

What kind of rugging ? I’m usually a bit stingy with rugs as he has some pounds to shed , in this weather 8-12 ish most days/nights would 50grams be adequate? He is clipped but using covercote blades so still 5mm of hair.

Thanks for advice , going to make the changes and see if any difference.

 

[SEL]

What kind of rugging ? I’m usually a bit stingy with rugs as he has some pounds to shed , in this weather 8-12 ish most days/nights would 50grams be adequate? He is clipped but using covercote blades so still 5mm of hair.

Thanks for advice , going to make the changes and see if any difference.

My mare with PSSM type 1 is in a 50g-100g during the day (although I took it off yesterday as it was so sunny and then she was grumpy by 5pm) and I add another 100g on top for overnight (so 150 - 200g).

Her 200g is pretty warm but once we get down to frosty nights I have another 100g that I throw on over the top. A run of freezing temps and she's around 600g ++

Unclipped, overweight chunky type. If she didn't have PSSM she'd be in a lot less but I had her as an undiagnosed 5 year old and when I first rugged her that winter all tose years ago her demeanour changed quite literally overnight. She was just cold, stiff and unhappy.

Trial and error though so perhaps start with 50g and see how you go

 

[paddy555]

Having read a different thread on here has got me wondering if my lad has PSSM. I have ordered a test via animal genetics so will see what that comes back with. The things I identified through other threads that feel very familiar are-

• He is always wired in autumn/winter, is completely different in spring/summer , isnt affected by spring grass but turns into a snorty dragon from mid September onwards, spooks at everything just very hyper vigilant most of the time. Hacking becomes not very enjoyable as he doesn’t relax into it, although he is fine in the school.
• Although he is a very chunky cob he does suffer with the cold, even this year so far which has been mild he has needed increased physio and gets a sore stiff bottom, despite having a relatively easy life. For the first few minutes of work he is very stiff behind, this gradually improves as you go on, so I often take him for an in-hand walk before I ride.

In terms of tying up etc we don’t really see this. This is the worst time of year re rugging as weather is so unpredictable. Currently fed on a limited amount , just enough to get some vitamins in. He has healthy herbal chaff, TB daily balancer, a small amount of vitamin E , TB respiratory and coat supplement and a bit of cinnamon.

What other symptons do people see and what is the best management tips for me to try before results come back, do people feed more vitamin E than is advised?

the test you have sent for is PSSM1. (or at least I would guess it is) There is no peer reviewed test for PSSM2 so that is guesswork.

I would happily give 10000iu of vit e per day. I don't know what t he recommended amount is but even my normal horses get around 3000iu in winter.

Oct/Nov is a difficult month. (depending on when summer ends and if it is an Indian summer. )

spookiness can be caused by pain.
My horses (non PSSM) are struggling ATM. The grass is very wet, there is too much of it and I'm sure they would get gaseous colic for very little. They have restricted grass and a lot of hay for the next month or so.

The one who is most likely PSSM2 doesn't get chance to struggle. He get high dose vit e, even now is rugged day and night (which is a struggle in this warm weather) but his muscles are more important than what he prefers.

You may never know but in your position I would

increase vit e to 10000iu per day (most use PE or FP)

rug to keep hind quarters warm and exercise sheet to keep it warm whilst working. Even clip to keep him cool enough to get his rugged (which sounds crazy)

work every day, very important for some. Walking till the stiffness goes. If it is bad then do a weeks long reining every day building up to 40 mins or so. That worked as I tried to resolve mine (or walking in hand)

cut down the grass and increase the hay for the moment.

mine is in 100g ATM. Obviously depends on climate change and how warm the winter is but normally 400g in winter. (highland x TB) TB thin skin and highland hair.

stand a the side and poke his hind quarters. Are they hard or even rock hard or nice and floppy.

keep a diary especially of the weather conditions.

is your diet a bit low on protein. I add protein with pea protein powder (FP) which it says is for fat ones so as not to increase weight.

ETA if you are who I think you are I think you may be in Scotland. My rugging weights are for Devon which is pretty much warmer.

 

[Rowreach]

Good advice above.

I would strip back the diet and get rid of all chaffs and compounds, even take a good look at the balancer. Feed lots of hay. Up the dose of Vit E (you will need to play about with this). Add in table salt at a rate of 10g per 100kg of bodyweight per day. Exercise and movement needs to be a priority. Rug more heavily than you think you need (I prefer rugging in layers rather than just going with a heavier rug).

I've pretty much sussed out the management for mine, but any tiny change in what she consumes or a weirdness in the weather and it can set her off. There is no one size fits all for management so be prepared to tweak stuff, but like I said I'd take the diet back to straight hay, a bit of unmollassed sugar beet to carry the salt and Vit E and then start putting things back if you need to one at a time and see what happens.

 

[equinerebel]

I'm very intrigued by this. My mare is half Welsh and has always wanted to be well rugged. Recently, she completely exploded out of character in that hyper vigilant way you describe above. Obviously, there could be many causes and I'll be testing for them in turn, but I hadn't considered PSSM1 as I thought I would see obvious tying up symptoms. But if symptoms could be what you and others have described, I think I need to include that as a test.

Is the test for type 1 a hair test?

 

[Rowreach]

I'm very intrigued by this. My mare is half Welsh and has always wanted to be well rugged. Recently, she completely exploded out of character in that hyper vigilant way you describe above. Obviously, there could be many causes and I'll be testing for them in turn, but I hadn't considered PSSM1 as I thought I would see obvious tying up symptoms. But if symptoms could be what you and others have described, I think I need to include that as a test.

Is the test for type 1 a hair test?

Type 1 is a hair test and costs just a few quid.

All the anti rugging posts you see doing the rounds at this time of year do my head in. No, I don't like seeing horses that don't need 6 duvets sweltering in the field or stable, but as you say, a lot of horses want to be well rugged and need to be. The anti ruggers make pssm owners feel guilty and their horses suffer.

 

[equinerebel]

Thank you! I'll test for that, then I can either adjust or exclude.

Mine's like that. She loves being warm and well rugged. I have tried so many times to roughen her off, but at 17, I'm finally accepting defeat on that one. She just wants to be rugged!

 

[SEL]

Type 1 is a hair test and costs just a few quid.

All the anti rugging posts you see doing the rounds at this time of year do my head in. No, I don't like seeing horses that don't need 6 duvets sweltering in the field or stable, but as you say, a lot of horses want to be well rugged and need to be. The anti ruggers make pssm owners feel guilty and their horses suffer.

A few years back my then trimmer asked if she could bring some students with her as part of their qualification. No problem.

Winter so the Appy is in around 300g but the Ardennes is unrugged (his native coat was probably 400g). So I talk them through PSSM and explain how important it is to keep the muscles warm and mobile.

The Appy is not a skinny girl - her daddy was a draft horse - but I had very clearly explained that her hindquarters needed to be kept warm.

For the next 10 minutes I listened to a load of drivel from one of the students about over-rugging horses, how it makes horses fat and how her horses were all unrugged blah, blah, blah. I got very cross in the end and asked how many of her horses had a diagnosed muscle disease .......

 

[equinerebel]

Is this the test?

Polysaccharide Storage Myopathy – Type 1 (PSSM1) - Animal Genetics

Polysaccharide Storage Myopathy Description Polysaccharide Storage Myopathy (PSSM1) is a dominant autosomal hereditary condition that can cause a genetic form of tying-up of muscles, causing muscle damage and the inability to move. There are several forms of PSSM. One of these forms is PSSM1...

animalgenetics.com

(apologies for taking over your thread!)

 

[scats]

I’d never even considered my mare could have pssm because she’s very forwards and whizzy and never feels sluggish or behind the leg.
I did, however, have problems with her muscles on her bum feeling rock hard, permanent heave line and very stressy. It was only when someone came out to see her about something (unrelated) and they asked if I’d considered it.
So I decided to put her on vitamin e oil and rug her, aswell as do more gentle and regular exercise and some of her odd quirks stopped within days.
The rock hard bum muscles have gone, the permanent heave line has gone and the box walking has reduced by easily 90%.

I’m annoyed at myself that I didn’t consider it earlier but because she is so full of herself under saddle and never sticky or backwards, I was completely thrown.

We sent her in for ovary scans years ago because she used to throw herself on the floor after she’d been ridden and would look like she was colicking, but now I think it was this all along. I’ll never forgive myself for missing it, but no vet ever mentioned it either and we had her in the hospital several times for various tests.

She’s currently rugged 50-100g during the day in the field and 100g overnight while in (warm barn) but I have a 200g for her for winter, plus an under rug to add if need be.

 

[catembi]

If you’re on FB, there are several PSSM/MIM groups on there with some very knowledgeable people.

 

[paddy555]

Is this the test?

Polysaccharide Storage Myopathy – Type 1 (PSSM1) - Animal Genetics

Polysaccharide Storage Myopathy Description Polysaccharide Storage Myopathy (PSSM1) is a dominant autosomal hereditary condition that can cause a genetic form of tying-up of muscles, causing muscle damage and the inability to move. There are several forms of PSSM. One of these forms is PSSM1...

animalgenetics.com

(apologies for taking over your thread!)

yes,

 

[Rowreach]

Is this the test?

Polysaccharide Storage Myopathy – Type 1 (PSSM1) - Animal Genetics

Polysaccharide Storage Myopathy Description Polysaccharide Storage Myopathy (PSSM1) is a dominant autosomal hereditary condition that can cause a genetic form of tying-up of muscles, causing muscle damage and the inability to move. There are several forms of PSSM. One of these forms is PSSM1...

animalgenetics.com

(apologies for taking over your thread!)

Polysaccharide Storage Myopathy (PSSM)

 

[equinerebel]

yes,

Polysaccharide Storage Myopathy (PSSM)

Thank you both! I can't believe I've always dismissed it as a possibility.

It'd be good to know either way.

 

[SEL]

I’d never even considered my mare could have pssm because she’s very forwards and whizzy and never feels sluggish or behind the leg.
I did, however, have problems with her muscles on her bum feeling rock hard, permanent heave line and very stressy. It was only when someone came out to see her about something (unrelated) and they asked if I’d considered it.
So I decided to put her on vitamin e oil and rug her, aswell as do more gentle and regular exercise and some of her odd quirks stopped within days.
The rock hard bum muscles have gone, the permanent heave line has gone and the box walking has reduced by easily 90%.

I’m annoyed at myself that I didn’t consider it earlier but because she is so full of herself under saddle and never sticky or backwards, I was completely thrown.

We sent her in for ovary scans years ago because she used to throw herself on the floor after she’d been ridden and would look like she was colicking, but now I think it was this all along. I’ll never forgive myself for missing it, but no vet ever mentioned it either and we had her in the hospital several times for various tests.

She’s currently rugged 50-100g during the day in the field and 100g overnight while in (warm barn) but I have a 200g for her for winter, plus an under rug to add if need be.

Vets rarely think of it. One of them came out to the Appy a few years back after she gave me a scare over Xmas (which I had recorded on my phone) and said if she hadn't seen the video she would have thought it was an over anxious owner and a horse with slightly dodgy hocks. She said she'd actually sat down the night before our appointment and swotted up on it so she didn't look stupid in front of an educated owner. It doesn't help that most of their veterinary literature talks about the traditional stuck-solid tying up and also says that 'well managed' PSSM horses continue as normal so it just isn't seen as an issue until you are actually faced with one that IS having issues.

So forgive yourself

It was a complete fluke I found an article on it when the Appy was so young. I was reading up on night blindness and went down the rabbit hole of appaloosa genetic diseases - and the lightbulb came on.

 

[motherof2beasts!]

People rarely see tying up tbh - I can think of two examples where a proper tie up happened in advance of diagnosis. One was turned out into a field of spring grass and the other was given oats to try and get more oomph. Most are like mine and get stiff and grumpy.

Might be worth ditching the cinnamon. It's an insulin sensitiser so gets used for EMS but you don't want that for PSSM.

Rugging and a decent dose of vitamin E are a good starting point whilst you're waiting for your results

Is it ok if I send you a video via pm

 

[motherof2beasts!]

Thank you both! I can't believe I've always dismissed it as a possibility.

It'd be good to know either way.

I also hadn’t considered it until reading someone else’s post yesterday and the comments !

 

[motherof2beasts!]

the test you have sent for is PSSM1. (or at least I would guess it is) There is no peer reviewed test for PSSM2 so that is guesswork.

I would happily give 10000iu of vit e per day. I don't know what t he recommended amount is but even my normal horses get around 3000iu in winter.

Oct/Nov is a difficult month. (depending on when summer ends and if it is an Indian summer. )

spookiness can be caused by pain.
My horses (non PSSM) are struggling ATM. The grass is very wet, there is too much of it and I'm sure they would get gaseous colic for very little. They have restricted grass and a lot of hay for the next month or so.

The one who is most likely PSSM2 doesn't get chance to struggle. He get high dose vit e, even now is rugged day and night (which is a struggle in this warm weather) but his muscles are more important than what he prefers.

You may never know but in your position I would

increase vit e to 10000iu per day (most use PE or FP)

rug to keep hind quarters warm and exercise sheet to keep it warm whilst working. Even clip to keep him cool enough to get his rugged (which sounds crazy)

work every day, very important for some. Walking till the stiffness goes. If it is bad then do a weeks long reining every day building up to 40 mins or so. That worked as I tried to resolve mine (or walking in hand)

cut down the grass and increase the hay for the moment.

mine is in 100g ATM. Obviously depends on climate change and how warm the winter is but normally 400g in winter. (highland x TB) TB thin skin and highland hair.

stand a the side and poke his hind quarters. Are they hard or even rock hard or nice and floppy.

keep a diary especially of the weather conditions.

is your diet a bit low on protein. I add protein with pea protein powder (FP) which it says is for fat ones so as not to increase weight.

ETA if you are who I think you are I think you may be in Scotland. My rugging weights are for Devon which is pretty much warmer.

Thank you very much excellent advice, will follow. His bum is not rock hard but only as he has monthly physio and a heat pad I use daily.

 

[motherof2beasts!]

I have a video I can’t upload which I sent my physio and now starting to wonder if that was him tying up.

Yes I dislike the anti rugging crew, mine is the sort people will say he doesn’t need a rug but when I get it out he pretty much puts it on himself, if I enter field with it he canters over.

 

[Rowreach]

Just in case someone wanders into the thread and doesn't consider pssm because their horse doesn't have all the symptoms, mine started with headshaking and nothing else and became practically unrideable. It was only thanks to @I'm Dun that I had a chat with my vet and he was happy for me to strip everything back feedwise and change her management as per I'm Dun's suggestions and I had my horse back to pretty much her old self.

 

[motherof2beasts!]

the test you have sent for is PSSM1. (or at least I would guess it is) There is no peer reviewed test for PSSM2 so that is guesswork.

I would happily give 10000iu of vit e per day. I don't know what t he recommended amount is but even my normal horses get around 3000iu in winter.

Oct/Nov is a difficult month. (depending on when summer ends and if it is an Indian summer. )

spookiness can be caused by pain.
My horses (non PSSM) are struggling ATM. The grass is very wet, there is too much of it and I'm sure they would get gaseous colic for very little. They have restricted grass and a lot of hay for the next month or so.

The one who is most likely PSSM2 doesn't get chance to struggle. He get high dose vit e, even now is rugged day and night (which is a struggle in this warm weather) but his muscles are more important than what he prefers.

You may never know but in your position I would

increase vit e to 10000iu per day (most use PE or FP)

rug to keep hind quarters warm and exercise sheet to keep it warm whilst working. Even clip to keep him cool enough to get his rugged (which sounds crazy)

work every day, very important for some. Walking till the stiffness goes. If it is bad then do a weeks long reining every day building up to 40 mins or so. That worked as I tried to resolve mine (or walking in hand)

cut down the grass and increase the hay for the moment.

mine is in 100g ATM. Obviously depends on climate change and how warm the winter is but normally 400g in winter. (highland x TB) TB thin skin and highland hair.

stand a the side and poke his hind quarters. Are they hard or even rock hard or nice and floppy.

keep a diary especially of the weather conditions.

is your diet a bit low on protein. I add protein with pea protein powder (FP) which it says is for fat ones so as not to increase weight.

ETA if you are who I think you are I think you may be in Scotland. My rugging weights are for Devon which is pretty much warmer.

Also I’m not who you think I am , we are in Kent so pretty mild so far weather wise.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

I often wonder if my WelshDxTB had PSSM1, she had many of the symptoms and retired aged about10. She never could regulate her temperature. It's almost 20 yrs since she was pts aged 24, so we will never know but if I had her now, I should want to test her.

 

[Rowreach]

I often wonder if my WelshDxTB had PSSM1, she had many of the symptoms and retired aged about10. She never could regulate her temperature. It's almost 20 yrs since she was pts aged 24, so we will never know but if I had her now, I should want to test her.

Same, the cob I had all through childhood showed all the symptoms, poor chap, and I do wish we'd known about it back then.

 

[paddy555]

I have a video I can’t upload which I sent my physio and now starting to wonder if that was him tying up.

Yes I dislike the anti rugging crew, mine is the sort people will say he doesn’t need a rug but when I get it out he pretty much puts it on himself, if I enter field with it he canters over.

mine went to horse hospital and as per others experiences with vets pretty hopeless he was diagnosed either worms or grass. Certainly not a worm problem. That was the October.

the sh1t hit the fan when he tied up. (couple of years later when we were still struggling)
He had been ridden for an hour at a walk so warmed up, no exercise sheet and it was a very raw day in the November. OH took him up a steep hill where the horse decided to trot. They got to the top and horse was not pushed at any stage. He chose the pace. Started riding back and front half collapsed onto the ground, OH with it. Got back on, thought he had tripped or something rode him home.

I hadn't seen it so put him in the field and he went down and almost resembled a dead cow with all limbs outstretched. Got up, got him in. Wondered about AM, got a urine sample and it was OK, he started improving not getting worse so thought probably not AM. (this was a Sunday) by the following day better. That was definitely tying up in hindsight.
Month later a vet came for something and as horse seemed well I got a blood test for future reference. AST high but CK over 2000. Repeated a month later and CK only down a little, repeated another month later and CK still above normal.
Asked vet what CK that wouldn't go down meant and she didn't know so asked her to start phoning around the vet schools to find where to go from here.

In the meantime I googled why won't CK go down, got onto MSU site, read the bit on vit E and PSSM.
By the next day he was on 10000iu. 2 days later I wondered if he was a different horse and the next day OH asked why the horse had changed. By the next day he was on full PSSM management regime. Within a couple of weeks total difference. A few days later vet rang back and vet school had suggested we start by considering PSSM. She sounded very relieved when I told her I already had and there was a lot of difference. I don't think she had very much idea on how to advise me to deal with him


anyway the moral of this long and boring saga is that if you even think he may be tying up (even in his dreams) get high dose vit e into him asap or alternatively get a blood test to test levels

I think that in addition to PSSM there is also vit e deficiency myopathy. I suspect some on here who think they have PSSM (other than PSSM1 confirmed by testing) may in fact be dealing with vit e def. My horse may have been. There was a remarkable response to E.

This is a link from UC davis but there are lots of other things on E def. if you google.

Vitamin E In Horses

Vitamin E In Horses Vitamin E functions as a biological antioxidant that serves to maintain normal neuromuscular function. Equine diseases that develop in the face of vitamin E deficiency in young animals include nutritional myodegeneration in conjunction with selenium deficiency, equine...

www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu

Also I’m not who you think I am , we are in Kent so pretty mild so far weather wise.

oops, so sorry.

 

[SEL]

Is it ok if I send you a video via pm

Of course

 

[paddy555]

I often wonder if my WelshDxTB had PSSM1, she had many of the symptoms and retired aged about10. She never could regulate her temperature. It's almost 20 yrs since she was pts aged 24, so we will never know but if I had her now, I should want to test her.

my purebred sec d (back in the late 80's) was a nightmare. Now I look back I can see every symptom of it. I look back at my arab all those years ago and see vit e deficiency. Why didn't I know all this at the time. So sad.

 

[paddy555]

Also I’m not who you think I am , we are in Kent so pretty mild so far weather wise.

just worked it out. I was thinking of mother of chickens. You are the mother of beasts.

 

[motherof2beasts!]

mine went to horse hospital and as per others experiences with vets pretty hopeless he was diagnosed either worms or grass. Certainly not a worm problem. That was the October.

the sh1t hit the fan when he tied up. (couple of years later when we were still struggling)
He had been ridden for an hour at a walk so warmed up, no exercise sheet and it was a very raw day in the November. OH took him up a steep hill where the horse decided to trot. They got to the top and horse was not pushed at any stage. He chose the pace. Started riding back and front half collapsed onto the ground, OH with it. Got back on, thought he had tripped or something rode him home.

I hadn't seen it so put him in the field and he went down and almost resembled a dead cow with all limbs outstretched. Got up, got him in. Wondered about AM, got a urine sample and it was OK, he started improving not getting worse so thought probably not AM. (this was a Sunday) by the following day better. That was definitely tying up in hindsight.
Month later a vet came for something and as horse seemed well I got a blood test for future reference. AST high but CK over 2000. Repeated a month later and CK only down a little, repeated another month later and CK still above normal.
Asked vet what CK that wouldn't go down meant and she didn't know so asked her to start phoning around the vet schools to find where to go from here.

In the meantime I googled why won't CK go down, got onto MSU site, read the bit on vit E and PSSM.
By the next day he was on 10000iu. 2 days later I wondered if he was a different horse and the next day OH asked why the horse had changed. By the next day he was on full PSSM management regime. Within a couple of weeks total difference. A few days later vet rang back and vet school had suggested we start by considering PSSM. She sounded very relieved when I told her I already had and there was a lot of difference. I don't think she had very much idea on how to advise me to deal with him


anyway the moral of this long and boring saga is that if you even think he may be tying up (even in his dreams) get high dose vit e into him asap or alternatively get a blood test to test levels

I think that in addition to PSSM there is also vit e deficiency myopathy. I suspect some on here who think they have PSSM (other than PSSM1 confirmed by testing) may in fact be dealing with vit e def. My horse may have been. There was a remarkable response to E.

This is a link from UC davis but there are lots of other things on E def. if you google.

Vitamin E In Horses

Vitamin E In Horses Vitamin E functions as a biological antioxidant that serves to maintain normal neuromuscular function. Equine diseases that develop in the face of vitamin E deficiency in young animals include nutritional myodegeneration in conjunction with selenium deficiency, equine...

www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu

oops, so sorry.

Yes it was nothing like that experience at all. I got him into lunge , he looked all of a sudden very lame/stuff behind , looked very depressed too. I panicked sent video to osteo /physio was about to get vets but within a few seconds he’d walked it out and looked back to normal. I use the heat pad before riding and usually do a 10/15 min in hand walk before doing schooling or upping the pace.

We mainly love hacking so it’s never easy at this time of year as everything is very scary , like clockwork September/October through to March he finds everything is out to kill him and goes from being lead horse to wimp at the back.