Psychology Today, 7 November 2022. Is It Ethical to Crate Your Dog?
- Thread starter skinnydipper
- Start date
Thistle
Well-Known Member
So much in there that I agree with. I always crate train pups for the reasons mentioned, travel, vets, emergencies. I get rid of the crate once the dog is reliable around the house. My dogs are always left in a dog safe utility room. In reality though is this just a bigger cage? I use a day kennel in the garden sometimes, another form of large cage. Cages aren't a terrible thing but all these things should be used with care to the welfare (both physical and emotional) of the animal being caged.
It's very acceptable to stable horses, in reality we're caging them. Where do we draw the line? Thought provoking indeed!
It's very acceptable to stable horses, in reality we're caging them. Where do we draw the line? Thought provoking indeed!
Pearlsacarolsinger
Up in the clouds
We use crates, where possible we put 2 dogs together in a large crate, when we had the Rottweilers, we put 2 crates together with the side doors removed do that they shared the larger space.
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However, we knew a lovely rehomed Staffy, who had been crated for almost the whole of the first year of her life, because the family had a baby. When walked she often rode on the tray under the buggy. The poor thing had life-long muscle and joint issues, easily got sore feet and didn't enjoy going for a walk. The vet said that all her problems stemmed from lack of movement in her early months.
So it's not just psychological problems that the use of crates can cause but physical ones, too.
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However, we knew a lovely rehomed Staffy, who had been crated for almost the whole of the first year of her life, because the family had a baby. When walked she often rode on the tray under the buggy. The poor thing had life-long muscle and joint issues, easily got sore feet and didn't enjoy going for a walk. The vet said that all her problems stemmed from lack of movement in her early months.
So it's not just psychological problems that the use of crates can cause but physical ones, too.
Mrs. Jingle
Well-Known Member
I have used early crate training for all pups I have had over at least the past 25 years without any issues. And without exception they all became house trained very quickly and from that point the cage was always available to them, day or night, but with the door open. They also continued for their whole lifetime to use the ever open crate as one of their many choices of sleeping area.
When I got my chocolate Lab about 8/9 years ago I had read a similar article and questioned if crate training for pups was the right thing to do. so I tried never closing the door from day one, obviously doing all the usual in and out for pooping and peeing and kept the nighttime hours as short as possible. It was a flipping nightmare at nearly 5 months the poor dog was still peeing and pooping all over the utility floor every single night, although faultless at asking to go out during the day. So I immediately reverted to the old tried and trusted shutting her in the cage at night. She was instantly clean right through the night and never again had any accidents overnight, within just 10 days we were able to leave the door open and she was still absolutely reliable throughout the night.
Both dogs we have now have never been shut in the cage as we got them both as house trained adults. We have taken the door off permanently, but it is a very big cage and is still there for them to use if they wish, they have been known to grumble and swear at each other at bedtime about who gets in first and gets the comfiest spot and who gets shoved in the corner. They also have a lovely leather sofa, two super big dog beds but the old crate with a couple of towels over the top is always the favourite den for both of them.
I rate them very highly and have no problem with them used correctly and only shut in for as limited time as possible or necessary.
When I got my chocolate Lab about 8/9 years ago I had read a similar article and questioned if crate training for pups was the right thing to do. so I tried never closing the door from day one, obviously doing all the usual in and out for pooping and peeing and kept the nighttime hours as short as possible. It was a flipping nightmare at nearly 5 months the poor dog was still peeing and pooping all over the utility floor every single night, although faultless at asking to go out during the day. So I immediately reverted to the old tried and trusted shutting her in the cage at night. She was instantly clean right through the night and never again had any accidents overnight, within just 10 days we were able to leave the door open and she was still absolutely reliable throughout the night.
Both dogs we have now have never been shut in the cage as we got them both as house trained adults. We have taken the door off permanently, but it is a very big cage and is still there for them to use if they wish, they have been known to grumble and swear at each other at bedtime about who gets in first and gets the comfiest spot and who gets shoved in the corner. They also have a lovely leather sofa, two super big dog beds but the old crate with a couple of towels over the top is always the favourite den for both of them.
I rate them very highly and have no problem with them used correctly and only shut in for as limited time as possible or necessary.
Christmascinnamoncookie
Fais pas chier!
We put Jake in a crate when he snapped his cruciates, he'd never been in one before but was (apparently) perfectly happy in there, particularly if the cat was with him. We then used it for Zak and Bear, but as soon as they decided to sleep elsewhere when we started leaving the door open, we tidied it away. We've just got rid of the 2 crates in the living room, today is a rare dog walker day-we use her 3 times a month and they've been left loose. I'm kind of scared!
When we were home, Goose would choose to sleep in either of the crates, Mitch would not. I think they are fabulous when used properly ie not as a method of containing dogs when the owner is home, unless overnight as babies. They were literally bedrooms for mine. Bar a highly unusual incursion at 4.30am, the youngsters stay downstairs with free run these days. If my OH is on earlies, they get fed at 5.30 then stay with him til he leaves at 6.30 then sleep in til 9, it's amazing, they're grown ups! If we take them away, we'll probably take the crates, it's a security thing for them.
When we were home, Goose would choose to sleep in either of the crates, Mitch would not. I think they are fabulous when used properly ie not as a method of containing dogs when the owner is home, unless overnight as babies. They were literally bedrooms for mine. Bar a highly unusual incursion at 4.30am, the youngsters stay downstairs with free run these days. If my OH is on earlies, they get fed at 5.30 then stay with him til he leaves at 6.30 then sleep in til 9, it's amazing, they're grown ups! If we take them away, we'll probably take the crates, it's a security thing for them.
FestiveG
Over the hill and far awa
The problem with the studies quoted, is that it is all or begger all. Interestingly the day care dog no longer has a crate at home, she is currently in one of ours, on her own, with the door open.
Ample Prosecco
Still wittering on
Daisy was crated as a puppy and as other people have said above, her crate soon became her favourite place to sleep when the door was open. On the other hand, many years ago we rehomed an 11 month old lab who had been crated most of her life to that point as the owners could not cope ith her exuberance. She was never really quite right physically. Never anywhere near as strong or fit as all our other dogs have been and far less athletic. The number of walks we had to lift her over a fairly low obstable! Though unlike PAS' dog she did at east love her walks.
CorvusCorax
'It's only a laugh, no harm done'
I don't know if it is ethical to let the dog have the run of the house to choke to death on things or get the owner and themselves evicted for peeing, pooing and chewing everything either 
**You can't train a dog to do/not do something when you are not in the room with it.
Plus all the usual caveats about how handy it is to have a crate trained dog when you travel, when they have to overnight somewhere strange, at the vets, if they need enforced rest, in an emergency evacuation etc etc.
**You can't train a dog to do/not do something when you are not in the room with it.
Plus all the usual caveats about how handy it is to have a crate trained dog when you travel, when they have to overnight somewhere strange, at the vets, if they need enforced rest, in an emergency evacuation etc etc.
Esmae
Well-Known Member
Mine were crated as pups and the crates are still there and they are asleep in them now and all the doors are open. They get tons of exercise though so are happy to sleep away the afternoons.
bonny
Well-Known Member
I’ve never used a crate and never would and I’ve seen far too many unhappy dogs spending hours locked up, it’s too easy to shove your dog into a cage and leave it there and there must be thousands of dogs leading sad solitary lives locked in them. Most people on here use them sparingly but the potential for abuse is easy to see.
Flowerofthefen
Well-Known Member
We had to crate our fox red lab. She chewed everything and was an absolute nightmare. I'm sure if we hadn't of done it she would of killed herself. The previous 2 dogs to her we didn't crate. We are crating the new pup as she could do herself serious damage if left to her own devices. The fox red has turned into a fabulous easy dog so I don't think crating did her any harm. The pup will be crated until she can be trusted!! She now goes to sleep as soon as we pop her in it so she is definitely not stressed by it.
rara007
Well-Known Member
Those not using crates- how do you train a dog not to self reward when you’re not there?! My spaniel is feral. Left loose the bin will be emptied, the sides of the kitchen will be empty (including the toaster, sugar, etc) and he’ll have stress pooed. Left crated he’s silent and calm. When I’m in I can sleep with a pizza on the floor, he won’t touch a thing. The moment I step out he knows he can self reward. My Boston terrier is too small to jump on the sides and no where near so motivated, he’s settled left in our out, and they can be crated together or apart. My newest is so tiny he needs to be kept away from the others unsupervised. He has a play pen and a cat box, and is happier with the box when he can see the others, but he’s 14 weeks.
Pearlsacarolsinger
Up in the clouds
The first time the Staffy came to visit us after we got the Rotts and their crate, she refused to walk into the same room as the crate. It took a long time of visiting us at least once per week, for her to actually walk into the crate to see what there was. She never did choose to sit in there, she preferred the sofa!
Ample Prosecco
Still wittering on
Yes we never even considered crating the lab. I bet she never wanted to lay eyes on one ever again. But the article is silly really. You can neglect a baby in a cot too. Doesn’t make cots cruel.
JoannaC
Well-Known Member
My two Labs both loved their crates as pups and chose to take themselves in when they wanted a nap. Cyril now prefers to sleep on top of it so I haven't packed it away yet
Dexter
Well-Known Member
By not allowing access to bins and/or the kitchen if its not safe.
I'm not against crates and have used them, but the last two dogs haven't been crated due to my small house, and both have been house-trained almost immediately with only three accidents between them in their first six months so for me there's no correlation between crating and house training.
marmalade76
Well-Known Member
No idea about puppy training because I've only had adult dogs but will say that my dog sees her cage (I will not call it a crate, it is a cage) as her den. It's in a corner and it's got random stuff piled on top of it so it's a bit cave-like and that's why I think she likes it. The door is very rarely shut, usually only when there's visitors who don't want to be cuddled by the dog.
Umbongo
Well-Known Member
I didn't crate train my last dog. He was a super easy puppy and was shut in the kitchen when we weren't around. But I will crate train my future dogs. Useful for training puppies, and gaving been involved with veterinary orthopaedics, enforced rest after surgery is so much easier and less stressful for both dog and owner if the dog is used to it!
But I can see how they can be abused by less knowledgable people. Dogs being put in crates for too long, using the crate as "punishment" etc.
But I can see how they can be abused by less knowledgable people. Dogs being put in crates for too long, using the crate as "punishment" etc.
Sandstone1
Well-Known Member
I am not a big fan of crates. They do have a place if used properly but are often miss used. Dogs being left in them for many hours, locked in for punishment or just locked in because the owner can not be bothered with them. Dogs only have short lives really. Not much fun to be in a cage for half of it.
skinnydipper
Well-Known Member
I don't know if it is ethical to let the dog have the run of the house to choke to death on things or get the owner and themselves evicted for peeing, pooing and chewing everything either
Toileting indoors and destructive chewing are behavioural problems not lack of a crate problem
skinnydipper
Well-Known Member
If a dog has been trained to settle in a crate it shouldn't come as a surprise that is where they go to rest.
skinnydipper
Well-Known Member
Are your dogs crated at work?
Dogs are very sensitive to the emotions and energy of the owner.
If a dog is exhibiting behaviour problems when not crated then I think it would be best to try to find what emotions or needs are driving the behaviour and address those. Stress, anxiety, boredom, something else?
What type of exercise does he get? Is it winding him up or calming him down?
What does he eat, how does it affect the gut microbiome, serotonin production and metabolism, the gut brain axis? Would it be worth feeding him a species appropriate diet to see if that makes any difference to his behaviour?
Have you considered behavioural pharmacology? Have you spoken with a veterinary behaviourist?
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Clodagh
Well-Known Member
Well we managed perfectly well without cages in the past but I’m happy to embrace them now. Mine sleep in them overnight until they are about 6 months ish and during the day while we eat and so on, or if we go out.
I wouldn’t leave one in one all day but mine go in kennels, which no doubt are just as hated by people who disagree with confinement. Kennelled never more than 6 hours in the day. And that’s rare.
I wouldn’t leave one in one all day but mine go in kennels, which no doubt are just as hated by people who disagree with confinement. Kennelled never more than 6 hours in the day. And that’s rare.
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Annette4
Well-Known Member
I will never not crate now. My first two dogs weren't crated, they slept in the kitchen which was dog proofed and house trained quickly. I only started them in a crate when the eldest was 5yo as I was going camping and needed to keep him secure as he worked our how to open the tent on our trial run in the garden and I've never looked back.
Fizz panics if she is left with her crate door open and we go out, she literally tried to eat and dig through a wooden door, yet in her crate she's totally chilled.
Up until Ginny came home they were only shut in at home overnight and when we went out. Ginny is a firey terrier x who was a stray and although the three dogs get on fine now, she is a much smaller dog and a resource guarder when the mood takes her so it is safer if we're not there for them to be separated. Again, they are only locked in overnight now as we know what triggers her and those things she doesn't have access to when we're not there. Now they go in (doors open but supervised) for high value chews or treats as well as the previously mentioned senarios and initially it gave us a means to feed her separately (wasn't possible another way due to house layout) etc etc. Mine spend the vast majority of their day out downstairs or in my office which has more dog beds than free floor space.
Yes I can see how their open to abuse but so is literally every other tool or training aid we use with dogs down to a collar and lead.
Fizz panics if she is left with her crate door open and we go out, she literally tried to eat and dig through a wooden door, yet in her crate she's totally chilled.
Up until Ginny came home they were only shut in at home overnight and when we went out. Ginny is a firey terrier x who was a stray and although the three dogs get on fine now, she is a much smaller dog and a resource guarder when the mood takes her so it is safer if we're not there for them to be separated. Again, they are only locked in overnight now as we know what triggers her and those things she doesn't have access to when we're not there. Now they go in (doors open but supervised) for high value chews or treats as well as the previously mentioned senarios and initially it gave us a means to feed her separately (wasn't possible another way due to house layout) etc etc. Mine spend the vast majority of their day out downstairs or in my office which has more dog beds than free floor space.
Yes I can see how their open to abuse but so is literally every other tool or training aid we use with dogs down to a collar and lead.
Morwenna
Well-Known Member
Mine was crate trained as a puppy and is still crate overnight and if I got out in the day and leave her (never for more than a few hours and for her own safety as much as anything). The door is left open during the day and she will often take herself in there to sleep and is very chilled in her crate. Of course they can be abused but it is not crates themselves that are the issue. Used appropriately they are very useful things. My old neighbours had a dog that was left in the garden all day while they were at work. It spent the whole day charging up and down the fence line terrorising the dog next door and working itself up into a terrible state. How is that better than leaving a dog in a crate that it feels safe and secure in?
CorvusCorax
'It's only a laugh, no harm done'
Toileting indoors and destructive chewing are behavioural problems not lack of a crate problem
It's not that black and white I'm afraid, some dogs, such as the type of dog I like to keep, are genetically inclined to want to hold things/have things in their mouths.
My dogs are clean in home and kennels so it's a moot point, but I don't think every single dog that toilets in the house has a behavioural problem.
Moobli
Well-Known Member
Very interesting, thought provoking article. It’s definitely culturally acceptable to cage dogs in the UK, yet I believe in some European countries (Sweden and Finland certainly) they are illegal unless used for specific purposes such as transportation and recovering from surgery.
I have crate trained a couple of pups in the past, but preferred to puppy proof the kitchen while I was out so pups had more room to move about, play etc. I’m certainly not against crate training at all but it should not be for prolonged periods or used as punishment.
As with all training tools they can be abused. Our working sheepdogs are kennelled when not working and kennelling can be abused just the same as crating.
I have crate trained a couple of pups in the past, but preferred to puppy proof the kitchen while I was out so pups had more room to move about, play etc. I’m certainly not against crate training at all but it should not be for prolonged periods or used as punishment.
As with all training tools they can be abused. Our working sheepdogs are kennelled when not working and kennelling can be abused just the same as crating.
rara007
Well-Known Member
Not so easy to not allow access when your house is 1 room or open plan, depending on how you look at it! I have no ‘porch’ or utility room, or other plain space that would be just the same as a crate but without the connotations.
He gets 1 tray of forthglade a day, ideal BCS. I’m a vet and he comes to work with me including where a behaviourist is based so he knows many many vets and behaviourists! They’d laugh if I asked for meds for the dog asleep in the corner I think! He caniXs, free runs in a local enclosed woods, does bits of gundog training for his home ‘walks’. He’s both agility and flyball trained but we gave that up as it was just hyping him up and I ran out of time.
He simply does it as he knows he can self reward, then gets himself over stimulated. And I can’t stop the rewards without being there. He’ll be on the worktops within about 5 seconds of me leaving the house if he’s left out. It’s not I’ve got bored or stressed, it’s an immediate I know where I might be able to get some food. Oh and he can open cupboards too!
He’s not even woken up yet today and is still asleep on his bed in the corner (not crated, we didn’t work last night!). There’s food he can access including the little ones as-lib kibble but he doesn’t touch it with me here. I think he’s coping pretty well with life tbh. We’re going to the woods in an hour and a half. Not all dogs are take to the park for a morning stroll dogs.
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skinnydipper
Well-Known Member
Yes, I know you are a vet, rara.
You described your dog as wild and feral. I was making suggestions that I thought may be helpful.
Have the behaviourists at work offered any advice?
CorvusCorax
'It's only a laugh, no harm done'
I think that's an important point. I thought I knew a lot about dogs until I got a working dog with no natural off switch.
Sometimes dogs need physical barriers in order to learn and show them where they can and cannot be, especially very independent, free thinkers ? or else we wouldn't need collars, leashes or any sort of restraint at all.
Theory is really important for humans to understand dog behaviour, but I've never met a dog yet that could read these studies.
I often wonder if a lot of the people who write them have ever owned, or would want to own, a very high octane/working dog that might prove some of these theories wrong or require a training/management style that doesn't fit into their box.
I've met a small number of people who I consider to be really gifted around dogs, who would know exactly what to do with a dog following a relatively short observation, and none of them had letters after their names.