rara007
Well-Known Member
It’s quite enlightening taking a highly driven working dog to your local pet obedience class..!
We gave that up quickly!
We gave that up quickly!
Psychology Today, 7 November 2022. Is It Ethical to Crate Your Dog?
- Thread starter skinnydipper
- Start date
CorvusCorax
'It's only a laugh, no harm done'
You say that like it's a bad thing ?
Yours, the owner of the canine Vyvyan Basterd, who's free spirit I have streadfastly failed to crush for almost 12 years.
(Not that I would ever want to).
FestiveG
Over the hill and far awa
My parents first dog, bought by my father as a wedding present for my mum, read the book about dog training, by the inward ingestion method?. It was long before crates, but they would all have benefited as he was the ultimate self rewarder and could open the fridge!
TGM
Well-Known Member
I was very disappointed in that article - I was expecting a well-reasoned article with a scientific basis, but it was nothing of the kind.
Look at this excerpt from the piece:
Dogs were confined to individual crates for six weeks, with no social interaction or even visual access to other dogs. The socially and spatially restricted dogs “exhibited a heightened state of aggression, excitement, and uncertainty” and showed hormonal and immunological changes associated with high levels of stress." How is crating a pet dog in the home different from what is described in this article as “social and spatial restriction”?
Really!? Can she not see there is a huge difference between the experiment and the experience of a properly crate-trained dog in the home who may be left crated overnight when sleeping, and perhaps a couple of hours in the day when left home alone? But would otherwise have plenty of social interaction with humans, be regularly exercised and probably well socialised with other dogs. Apart from anything else, if you kept a dog in one place, uncrated, (say a single room) for six weeks with no social interaction or even visual access to other dogs, it is highly likely that they would show high levels of stress too!
I have always used a crate for my puppies, just as I used a cot for my daughter when she was a baby. It is interesting that we rarely hear people call a cot 'a cage', but surely it fulfils the same function, confining the baby to a small area with bars. As said above, you can abuse a crate by leaving a dog in it for too long, but you can do that with a baby too. I have also used a crate temporarily for an adult dog in an emergency foster situation, where it was struggling to adapt to the new surroundings.
People say crating is a new thing, but people have used many different methods for confining dogs over the years - outdoor kennels, utility rooms, enclosed porches, bootrooms etc. I remember my mother using a baby's playpen for a puppy whilst I was a child. I think crates have become more popular due to homes tending to be more open plan these days, making it harder to confine a dog (and especially a puppy) to one area when necessary.
Look at this excerpt from the piece:
Dogs were confined to individual crates for six weeks, with no social interaction or even visual access to other dogs. The socially and spatially restricted dogs “exhibited a heightened state of aggression, excitement, and uncertainty” and showed hormonal and immunological changes associated with high levels of stress." How is crating a pet dog in the home different from what is described in this article as “social and spatial restriction”?
Really!? Can she not see there is a huge difference between the experiment and the experience of a properly crate-trained dog in the home who may be left crated overnight when sleeping, and perhaps a couple of hours in the day when left home alone? But would otherwise have plenty of social interaction with humans, be regularly exercised and probably well socialised with other dogs. Apart from anything else, if you kept a dog in one place, uncrated, (say a single room) for six weeks with no social interaction or even visual access to other dogs, it is highly likely that they would show high levels of stress too!
I have always used a crate for my puppies, just as I used a cot for my daughter when she was a baby. It is interesting that we rarely hear people call a cot 'a cage', but surely it fulfils the same function, confining the baby to a small area with bars. As said above, you can abuse a crate by leaving a dog in it for too long, but you can do that with a baby too. I have also used a crate temporarily for an adult dog in an emergency foster situation, where it was struggling to adapt to the new surroundings.
People say crating is a new thing, but people have used many different methods for confining dogs over the years - outdoor kennels, utility rooms, enclosed porches, bootrooms etc. I remember my mother using a baby's playpen for a puppy whilst I was a child. I think crates have become more popular due to homes tending to be more open plan these days, making it harder to confine a dog (and especially a puppy) to one area when necessary.
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rara007
Well-Known Member
What for? I talk to them regularly and use their enclosed training area for lunchtime stimulation when we’re at a day job, but being feral unsupervised is just him. He doesn’t bark or chew things, just hunts and eats. We’re happy with wild and feral, I wasn’t asking for advice! He’s just carefully managed to keep him safe and calm, and that includes a crate and not going on social dog walks in town (or towny parks!). Persuading him not to hunt in his spare time would be as frustrating as trying to get my Boston to have the motivation to retrieve a dummy from 1 field away via a river.
I’ve probably seen 12 different trainers (paid for) with him over the years, some for sport specific training, play workshops, canine conditioning, gundog work, trick levels, plus general KC good citizen stuff, I’ve not been freeforming it - he’s taught me and some of them lots!
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skinnydipper
Well-Known Member
I have two dog cages, both in the shed.
One I was given along with an elderly whippet who was no longer wanted by her owner because, I was told, she peed in the house and was destructive. That's all she came with, an empty crate. She didn't wee in the house here, nor was she destructive. She preferred snuggling with a dog or cat in a dog bed or with me on the settee and the crate was redundant.
The second crate I bought second hand. I was advised to try a covered crate for a noise phobic dog. I made a cosy nest inside and covered it, left the door open and taught her to go in and settle. I left it to her to decide where she wanted to chill and after the initial novelty of the crate she went back to her usual resting places.
The person who suggested the covered crate did so in good faith and I took the proffered advice, willing to try anything to help my dog. Unfortunately a covered crate, cosy den or whatever you want to call it, is not helpful for a dog whose instinctive fear response is flight.
I have kept the crates. I thought it would be useful to have somewhere to pop a puppy in if I needed to, or for cage rest for dog or cat if necessary.
I used an airline crate for the long journeys with our JRT when he went for his radiotherapy.
I don't use cages/crates routinely. I have no need.
One I was given along with an elderly whippet who was no longer wanted by her owner because, I was told, she peed in the house and was destructive. That's all she came with, an empty crate. She didn't wee in the house here, nor was she destructive. She preferred snuggling with a dog or cat in a dog bed or with me on the settee and the crate was redundant.
The second crate I bought second hand. I was advised to try a covered crate for a noise phobic dog. I made a cosy nest inside and covered it, left the door open and taught her to go in and settle. I left it to her to decide where she wanted to chill and after the initial novelty of the crate she went back to her usual resting places.
The person who suggested the covered crate did so in good faith and I took the proffered advice, willing to try anything to help my dog. Unfortunately a covered crate, cosy den or whatever you want to call it, is not helpful for a dog whose instinctive fear response is flight.
I have kept the crates. I thought it would be useful to have somewhere to pop a puppy in if I needed to, or for cage rest for dog or cat if necessary.
I used an airline crate for the long journeys with our JRT when he went for his radiotherapy.
I don't use cages/crates routinely. I have no need.
skinnydipper
Well-Known Member
CorvusCorax
'It's only a laugh, no harm done'
That's great, what works for you works for you, what works for others works for them.
I use airline crates in the house, have custom travel boxes in the van and I use a metal crate for things like recuperation, if one needs to come into a hotel room with me etc as they fold flat and have a carry handle.
If the average uncrated pet dog gets as much exercise, stimulation and travel as mine do when they are in full work/training, then hats off!
skinnydipper
Well-Known Member
You were kind enough to advise using a covered crate with a Starmark ball for her to chew on, I bought one of those, too
JFTDWS
Well-Known Member
Are you familiar with the concept of the rhetorical question, @skinnydipper?
One of mine is currently in his crate to stop him behaving unpredictably around the bloke doing a survey on the house. The other is lying on the floor ignoring the bloke. Both were crate trained as pups. Collie is well mannered and now doesn't even have a crate. Feral pointy thing is confined to a crate on the rare occasions he's left home alone, or there are work men in the house - for everyone's safety. Crates are a useful tool for those who need them, but like any tool, can be misused. I'm amazed they got ethical board approval for that study, to be honest, it sounds barbaric.
One of mine is currently in his crate to stop him behaving unpredictably around the bloke doing a survey on the house. The other is lying on the floor ignoring the bloke. Both were crate trained as pups. Collie is well mannered and now doesn't even have a crate. Feral pointy thing is confined to a crate on the rare occasions he's left home alone, or there are work men in the house - for everyone's safety. Crates are a useful tool for those who need them, but like any tool, can be misused. I'm amazed they got ethical board approval for that study, to be honest, it sounds barbaric.
bonny
Well-Known Member
Interesting that cages are illegal in some countries, I didn’t know that.
skinnydipper
Well-Known Member
Don't worry, I've got the message.
CorvusCorax
'It's only a laugh, no harm done'
You were kind enough to advise using a covered crate with a Starmark ball for her to chew on, I bought one of those, too
Did you ever try the ear cover/plug things? I think I posted a newer version in a more recent thread.
Rowreach
Adjusting my sails
splashgirl45
Lurcher lover
I’ve used crates/cages for pups over the last 20 years and found them really useful for that short time. My lurcher pup is 8months now and is still in the crate overnight as I want the other 2 to be able to sleep without him jumping on them. If I go out during the day he is now loose with the others and I check the camera to see what they are doing. As my terriers were much smaller than my previous lurcher they were in crates for their own safety if I wasn’t there . also mine are in crates in the car nowadays but none of my dogs that I had years ago ever went in a crate, I believe it’s illegal now to have dogs loose with no barriers in the car.
Ouch05
Well-Known Member
I have two rescues (street dogs) they have not been crated as we too have a small ish house they have the run of the kitchen which is the largest room and two dog beds. They have never pulled over a bin or ate something they shouldn't have. That said my two springers I had before where the same. No issues with toilet training either.
I do refer the horses stables as cages to remind myself that they need minimum time in them so get my arse out of bed to turn them out asap. That is when they come in for winter (last night was the first night as my field can't really take much more 24/7)
skinnydipper
Well-Known Member
They have to be restrained.
"When in a vehicle make sure dogs or other animals are suitably restrained so they cannot distract you while you are driving or injure you, or themselves, if you stop quickly. A seat belt harness, pet carrier, dog cage or dog guard are ways of restraining animals in cars."
Mrs. Jingle
Well-Known Member
Slightly off topic as not cage related but: My goodness rara007 you could be describing our little Field Trials bred labrador we took into our home as a 3 year old. Her instinct to run and just do her own feral hunting thing was very challenging in the first few months to say the least. I even posted on here asking for any helpful suggestions on how we could rehab her, and most importantly contain her within our property without her climbing ANY fence and racing off to murder a few sheep or whatever wildlife took her fancy.
I actually got a bit of stick on here for taking her and my other lab on as I am SO elderly and frail apparently ?. Anyway just to say we now have a very happy and settled little lab who never trys to escape the confines of our property that are now run away dog proofed. But she still cannot be let off the leash out and about on our own fields if conditions and her mood of the day is judged not to be compliant, she still has to be managed very carefully and read her immediately the ears goes up and the nose starts sniffing the wind lol! Stamp on the long line and back on the leash she goes. We will never cure her completely of her wild ways but we can live with that. ?
scruffyponies
Well-Known Member
I think I would crate train if I had just one dog. With a small pack, the new one tends to follow the lead set by the others, so during the day time they settle nicely around me as I work.
That said, it's true that you can't police when you're not in the room with them. The puppy ate the left over fish cakes which were on the worktop this morning. That was my lunch
That said, it's true that you can't police when you're not in the room with them. The puppy ate the left over fish cakes which were on the worktop this morning. That was my lunch